Just a quick note to those that have shown support. After the latest personal attack on my views by a member of these forums (a 'you're anti-american' rant for posting something off Fox news, now I've heard it all) I've had enough.
For those that have supported me, and those that I'm proud to call friends I say thank you, and I hope to hear from you all soon. I'll be checking in on the forums occasionaly and will get back to any PM's or e-mails as quick as I can.
But the sad fact is it isn't worth the time anymore. Those that have read what I post know the ammount of work and effort I make, well, I suppose that should be made, to try and provide external sources for my views and to avoid entering into all-out flame wars despite provication. I know there's little the mods can do about certain responses, but this is starting to get too personal so, for now at least...
Catch you around guys.
Steve.
Oh, and for those that are interested, here's my own views on why I held the views I did and why I did things the way that I did.
************************
I like America. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I love America. Or at least, I love the principles and ideas that America represents. For me, and I think every post I've ever made on here about a serious issue reflects this, there is nothing more sacred than the concept expressed by this simple line:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
Free speech, a free press, the freedom to practice religion as you wish, the ideal of "Liberty and Justice for all", I want nothing more than for such a country to trully exist. While, of course, NO country can live up to these lofty goals America was making a damn good effort at it. I was considering for a number of years moving over there once my student debts were paid off, but I am deeply concerned about what America is becoming, or threatens to become, if events continue as they are now.
I do not dislike (or hate) America, the Democrats, the Repbulicans or any other political party for that matter. I do not dislike (or hate) the people or the culture, in fact most Americans I know are kind hearted and friendly people. I do however dislike the current government because it has commited what, to my mind, is the worst crime a government can do against its own people short of outright persecution. It has lied to them, repeatedly, to justify and enhance its own agenda but even for that I do not "hate" them. I would never wish for a repeat of Novemeber 22nd 1963 for example. However that sentiment, that a democratically elected government should not lie to its own people, is the same reason I criticise my own country as our current Labour government has done exactly the same thing.
I criticise policy, not because I "dislike America", but because I want to see it regain its moral and ethical centre in the world. I want America to take the lead not just in military terms but in terms of morality, compasion and tolerance. I want, more than anything else, everyone to be able to live in a world guided by that one simple principle of "freedom and justice for all" and it breaks my heart to see what American foreign policy (and indeed, internal policy) is doing to that principle. While I might not have agreed with all his actions, Clinton somehow managed this balancing act of moral authority with military might.So did Bush Senior, and so did Reagan (with the possible exception of Central America). Since Vietnam the US has worked hard to build up that moral authority and now.... well, that's for a different debate.
As for my posts on this board, I've said before that I don't object to anyone based on what political party you support, or what your personal beliefs are or any other opinion you may hold. They are your beliefs and you are entitled to them, as I am to mine. However I also believe it is the duty of every citizen, and in fact everyone who is affected by a particular issue, citizen or no, to ask questions of those in power, to hold them to task for the decisions they make. Whatever decision you make, whatever opinions you hold should always be backed up by a reason. If you wish to live in a free society it is your right, your duty and your obligation to ensure the government is accountable for its actions and that those actions are justified. "By the people, and for the people" does not mean ticking a ballot slip ever four years.
I freely admit most of what I post here takes the, for lack of a better description, Democrat point of view. However the bulk of what I post is presenting data and facts to attempt to add detail to a debate and allow those reading it to make up their own minds on whatever the truth of the matter might be. If there is one call I keep making, in virtually every post I make of that sort, it is for those on the "other side" of the debate to respond in kind. I want to be proved wrong, I want to see the data, the evidence, to prove what was originally said was accurate. In most cases though it doesn't appear for whatever reason. The reason that my arguments tend to be more on the Democrat side than the Republican is that, and I know I'm generalizing here, the "Democrat" arguments are already well represented by those that make them, and are backed up with facts. There simply isn't usually any glaring omission that gives cause to go and research the subject for myself. This I have no problem with and any "Republican" posts that do the same I tend to absorb what's said and stay out of the discussion. Sadly, and I know this is another generalzation, on the political debates the right wing point of view tends to be expressed in terms of "I'm right, because I said so" which is something that will cause me to research a topic for myself in order to find out the facts. Recently at least it's been very hard to discover any facts that support that point of view, which is why I always ask for the original poster to provide them as my natural asumption is I didn't find the data they were using rather than such data doesn't exist.
Now as for my personal opinions, I've said this before as well, but my views are a mix of policies from both the left and the right sides of the political spectrum. I hold no allegance to a specific party, but will make my own mind up on the issue based on the evidence I can find and vote accordingly.
As for "attacking" other countries, I suggest you take a look at your own posts for that. I have never said "America is horrible" or any blanket expression of the sort. Again, if you read what I oringialy posted, while I don't understand why journalists are suddenly on a list that included convicted criminals in requiring Visa permits and will question that policy, it was the treatment of this woman while in custody that sickened me. There are echoes here of the same abuses that took place in Abu Ghraib and that have been reported in the police service as well. THAT is what worries me not the policy itself, what is the underlying reason that officials in places of public trust would abuse their power like this so easily? And of course I cannot guarantee the accuracy of any opinion piece, article or research document that I have not written myself, and where the supporting evidence has not been created by me from scratch. That is simply common sense, and if you're going to insist on a 100% guarantee that what you hear and read is accurate then you might as well get used to the sound of your own voice because you will never believe anything else. In this case I believe the report to be accurate, although obviously you have to take into account the fact that the writer is going to paint the bleakest picture she can, that those publishing it have a sufficient record to make it credible and that there is suffecient evidence of simillar cases to support the claim. Most importantly there has been no denial of this claim which lends it credibility. This to me puts it into the upper percentiles when it comes to evaluating the reliability of the source.
As for the comments quoted, again I'd point out that these only came after you started attacking others. I've seen you do this before and didn't want the thread to devolve into a flame war. Again it was a polite request based on past evidence to treat others with some common courtesy, not an attack. Why did I refer to you specificaly? Because you were the first to do so, nothing more or less than that.
One thing I would say, despite what you may think, I've always tried to be nothing but respectful of others here no matter what they've said or how much provication they've thrown out. While I don't claim to always manage that I think my record's pretty good in that regard. I have gone out of my way to be polite, to present information in whatever way was requested, to research information that I've been asked for and to defend my own opinions (and indeed it seems my right to hold those opinions) all the while ignoring as best I can a seemingly never-ending wave of insults and, in some cases, outright attacks and I think it's a shame that courtesy is not returned.
One thing I forgot to mention regarding my posting habbits on these boards. Yes the majority of posts are based on American stories but, as Jim said, this is an American-orientated board, albeit with an international membership and is one of the few places I've come across with so many diverse opinions gathered in one place.
Now I'll quite happily post on UK issues here, I spent the better part of an hour putting together a post on the recent UK local elections and the hammering the current Government recieved for example then decided against posting it. Why? Because the background work to understand what was going on was considerable and there are few on here who would want to do that work as that is, after all, a British issue. And there's the problem, if we post British issues on here it will have a very limited audience while issues such as this raise questions that affect everyone here to a greater or lesser degree and (hopefully) stimulate debate.
Also, to imply that anyone other than Americans are not qualified to speak on these sorts of issues is, logically speaking, back to front. If you are an American citizen your view will be clouded, however unintentionaly, by your own political and social view. When you wish for an impartial view on any subject you turn to a neutral party as they are more likely to base their case on the facts to hand rather than gut feeling.
For those that have supported me, and those that I'm proud to call friends I say thank you, and I hope to hear from you all soon. I'll be checking in on the forums occasionaly and will get back to any PM's or e-mails as quick as I can.
But the sad fact is it isn't worth the time anymore. Those that have read what I post know the ammount of work and effort I make, well, I suppose that should be made, to try and provide external sources for my views and to avoid entering into all-out flame wars despite provication. I know there's little the mods can do about certain responses, but this is starting to get too personal so, for now at least...
Catch you around guys.
Steve.
Oh, and for those that are interested, here's my own views on why I held the views I did and why I did things the way that I did.
************************
I like America. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I love America. Or at least, I love the principles and ideas that America represents. For me, and I think every post I've ever made on here about a serious issue reflects this, there is nothing more sacred than the concept expressed by this simple line:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"
Free speech, a free press, the freedom to practice religion as you wish, the ideal of "Liberty and Justice for all", I want nothing more than for such a country to trully exist. While, of course, NO country can live up to these lofty goals America was making a damn good effort at it. I was considering for a number of years moving over there once my student debts were paid off, but I am deeply concerned about what America is becoming, or threatens to become, if events continue as they are now.
I do not dislike (or hate) America, the Democrats, the Repbulicans or any other political party for that matter. I do not dislike (or hate) the people or the culture, in fact most Americans I know are kind hearted and friendly people. I do however dislike the current government because it has commited what, to my mind, is the worst crime a government can do against its own people short of outright persecution. It has lied to them, repeatedly, to justify and enhance its own agenda but even for that I do not "hate" them. I would never wish for a repeat of Novemeber 22nd 1963 for example. However that sentiment, that a democratically elected government should not lie to its own people, is the same reason I criticise my own country as our current Labour government has done exactly the same thing.
I criticise policy, not because I "dislike America", but because I want to see it regain its moral and ethical centre in the world. I want America to take the lead not just in military terms but in terms of morality, compasion and tolerance. I want, more than anything else, everyone to be able to live in a world guided by that one simple principle of "freedom and justice for all" and it breaks my heart to see what American foreign policy (and indeed, internal policy) is doing to that principle. While I might not have agreed with all his actions, Clinton somehow managed this balancing act of moral authority with military might.So did Bush Senior, and so did Reagan (with the possible exception of Central America). Since Vietnam the US has worked hard to build up that moral authority and now.... well, that's for a different debate.
As for my posts on this board, I've said before that I don't object to anyone based on what political party you support, or what your personal beliefs are or any other opinion you may hold. They are your beliefs and you are entitled to them, as I am to mine. However I also believe it is the duty of every citizen, and in fact everyone who is affected by a particular issue, citizen or no, to ask questions of those in power, to hold them to task for the decisions they make. Whatever decision you make, whatever opinions you hold should always be backed up by a reason. If you wish to live in a free society it is your right, your duty and your obligation to ensure the government is accountable for its actions and that those actions are justified. "By the people, and for the people" does not mean ticking a ballot slip ever four years.
I freely admit most of what I post here takes the, for lack of a better description, Democrat point of view. However the bulk of what I post is presenting data and facts to attempt to add detail to a debate and allow those reading it to make up their own minds on whatever the truth of the matter might be. If there is one call I keep making, in virtually every post I make of that sort, it is for those on the "other side" of the debate to respond in kind. I want to be proved wrong, I want to see the data, the evidence, to prove what was originally said was accurate. In most cases though it doesn't appear for whatever reason. The reason that my arguments tend to be more on the Democrat side than the Republican is that, and I know I'm generalizing here, the "Democrat" arguments are already well represented by those that make them, and are backed up with facts. There simply isn't usually any glaring omission that gives cause to go and research the subject for myself. This I have no problem with and any "Republican" posts that do the same I tend to absorb what's said and stay out of the discussion. Sadly, and I know this is another generalzation, on the political debates the right wing point of view tends to be expressed in terms of "I'm right, because I said so" which is something that will cause me to research a topic for myself in order to find out the facts. Recently at least it's been very hard to discover any facts that support that point of view, which is why I always ask for the original poster to provide them as my natural asumption is I didn't find the data they were using rather than such data doesn't exist.
Now as for my personal opinions, I've said this before as well, but my views are a mix of policies from both the left and the right sides of the political spectrum. I hold no allegance to a specific party, but will make my own mind up on the issue based on the evidence I can find and vote accordingly.
As for "attacking" other countries, I suggest you take a look at your own posts for that. I have never said "America is horrible" or any blanket expression of the sort. Again, if you read what I oringialy posted, while I don't understand why journalists are suddenly on a list that included convicted criminals in requiring Visa permits and will question that policy, it was the treatment of this woman while in custody that sickened me. There are echoes here of the same abuses that took place in Abu Ghraib and that have been reported in the police service as well. THAT is what worries me not the policy itself, what is the underlying reason that officials in places of public trust would abuse their power like this so easily? And of course I cannot guarantee the accuracy of any opinion piece, article or research document that I have not written myself, and where the supporting evidence has not been created by me from scratch. That is simply common sense, and if you're going to insist on a 100% guarantee that what you hear and read is accurate then you might as well get used to the sound of your own voice because you will never believe anything else. In this case I believe the report to be accurate, although obviously you have to take into account the fact that the writer is going to paint the bleakest picture she can, that those publishing it have a sufficient record to make it credible and that there is suffecient evidence of simillar cases to support the claim. Most importantly there has been no denial of this claim which lends it credibility. This to me puts it into the upper percentiles when it comes to evaluating the reliability of the source.
As for the comments quoted, again I'd point out that these only came after you started attacking others. I've seen you do this before and didn't want the thread to devolve into a flame war. Again it was a polite request based on past evidence to treat others with some common courtesy, not an attack. Why did I refer to you specificaly? Because you were the first to do so, nothing more or less than that.
One thing I would say, despite what you may think, I've always tried to be nothing but respectful of others here no matter what they've said or how much provication they've thrown out. While I don't claim to always manage that I think my record's pretty good in that regard. I have gone out of my way to be polite, to present information in whatever way was requested, to research information that I've been asked for and to defend my own opinions (and indeed it seems my right to hold those opinions) all the while ignoring as best I can a seemingly never-ending wave of insults and, in some cases, outright attacks and I think it's a shame that courtesy is not returned.
One thing I forgot to mention regarding my posting habbits on these boards. Yes the majority of posts are based on American stories but, as Jim said, this is an American-orientated board, albeit with an international membership and is one of the few places I've come across with so many diverse opinions gathered in one place.
Now I'll quite happily post on UK issues here, I spent the better part of an hour putting together a post on the recent UK local elections and the hammering the current Government recieved for example then decided against posting it. Why? Because the background work to understand what was going on was considerable and there are few on here who would want to do that work as that is, after all, a British issue. And there's the problem, if we post British issues on here it will have a very limited audience while issues such as this raise questions that affect everyone here to a greater or lesser degree and (hopefully) stimulate debate.
Also, to imply that anyone other than Americans are not qualified to speak on these sorts of issues is, logically speaking, back to front. If you are an American citizen your view will be clouded, however unintentionaly, by your own political and social view. When you wish for an impartial view on any subject you turn to a neutral party as they are more likely to base their case on the facts to hand rather than gut feeling.
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