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A combination of the patriotism thread and the death penalty thread.

BigJim

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I came across this newspaper article which seems to have been written by an American journalist, writing for the Vancouver Sun newspaper. It's mainly about the death penalty, but it also touches on points made about Iraq and blind patriotism too. Rather than post it in both of the old threads, I thought I'd post it here for y'all to comment on.


Published on Thursday, April 24, 2003 by the Vancouver Sun <http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/> Brutal Treatment of Young Prisoners Isn't Restricted to Iraq by Stephen Hume Upon discovering that Saddam Hussein's henchmen maintained a brutal prison for the children of the disloyal, one of my colleagues in the national press expressed a predictable loathing: "I was stunned," she wrote with a stylish rhetorical flourish. "What kind of regime locks up and tortures children?" Now that's a good question. Because juvenile detention facilities in the U.S. were recently found by federal investigators to show a "pattern of egregious conditions." Violations of incarcerated children's rights included physical abuse, excessive use of discipline, overcrowded and unsafe conditions, inadequate educational, medical and mental health services. Just as the Americans were announcing that the liberation of Iraq would be followed by "steadfast commitment . . . to advance internationally agreed human rights principles worldwide," the U.S. was for the fourth time in 12 months preparing to participate in a practice that Amnesty International denounces as "indecent and illegal." The U.S. has the barbarous distinction of having executed more people for crimes committed as children than any other country -- and that during a period when 40 more nations were abolishing the death penalty entirely, bringing the global total to 111. When it comes to the execution of juvenile offenders, it seems the U.S. is a rogue state in the international community. Last year, even among the bloody dictatorships it identifies as the "axis of evil," the U.S. was the only country known to have executed juvenile offenders. And it executed its first juvenile offender for 2003 on April 3. Some of those executed committed dreadful crimes. But almost universally, the international community rejects the execution of juvenile offenders -- and that includes the U.S. ploy of sentencing child criminals to death and then warehousing them until they age enough to be killed. The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights describes this as a violation of moral law from which no country can exempt itself. Today, there are more than 80 inmates in the U.S. who were sentenced to death while they were still minors and now await some grisly form of execution. Among those on death row are an illiterate with an IQ of 69; another who believes people can't see him when his eyes are closed; and a former mental patient previously committed to a mental hospital for paranoid schizophrenia who required sedation during the trial to suppress hallucinations. Among those already executed are a man with the intellectual capacities of a 12-year-old who acted while under the domination of other adults and one who, after confessing to a murder, crawled into the lap of his interrogator hoping for a cuddle. What's more, although violent crimes by juveniles have been falling in the U.S., excessive numbers of children still go to jail. Over the last decade, Amnesty International points out, 40 states enacted legislation making it easier for children to be tried as adults and 42 states held children in adult jails while awaiting trial. Although every major international human rights treaty expressly prohibits execution for crimes committed by individuals before the age of 18, the U.S.-based National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty reports scores of people who committed crimes while legally children have been electrocuted, gassed or killed by lethal injection in the U.S. in the last 30 years. As recently as 1996, prosecutors in the state of Mississippi sought the death penalty for offenders as young as 13. Some have had the death penalty imposed for crimes committed when they were as young as 10. The coalition points out that one 14-year-old black child executed in South Carolina was so small that his mask fell off while he was being electrocuted. In case you hadn't guessed already, I am opposed to capital punishment under any circumstances. I have been in the abolitionist camp since reading the eyewitness description of the execution of Socrates. The Greek philosopher actually accepted the argument that the state had the right to execute him. He abided by the law and accepted its decision. Thus the greatest thinker of his age, an honored veteran whose only crime was to ask troubling questions, executed himself at the state's direction by drinking poison. He refused to beg mercy from his persecutors or to flee, although both options were available. Consider Socrates' decision in the context of Jesus Christ, another individual who accepted the authorities' right to order his execution -- and who publicly absolved them of their judicial sin. Of course, the righteous executioners cared nothing for that. What was to be forgiven? Christ had his trial, drew the death penalty and that was that. The justification for killing the famous two remains the same justification used for killing any criminals -- for only in hindsight was their innocence determined. Should the accidental killing of one innocent person in the name of justice today be considered less of a moral crime than those inherent in the legal executions of Christ, or Socrates? For me, the honorable way in which these individuals faced their executions at the hands of insufferably righteous fools casts into eternal doubt and dishonor the argument that execution can ever be the state's proper prerogative. In that context, executing people for crimes committed as children seems particularly odious and indefensible. Just as there are no half measures in an execution, there's no gray zone in the death penalty debate. Like it or not, those who believe that killing people is an appropriate judicial process choose to ally themselves with those who approved the death penalty for Socrates, Christ and with those who conducted "legal" executions in Iraq. Likewise, those who brutalize juvenile offenders in the U.S. place themselves on the same side as those who do so in Iraq. For me, the ethically impoverished eye-for-an-eye principle cannot be reconciled with civilized attempts to make the world a better, more humane place. The state, which is valuable only as a collective aspiration toward what is best in human conduct, has no place behaving in a primitive, vengeful fashion, torturing people by keeping them on death row for decades and then snuffing out their lives as casually as one turns out the light. Yet last September, one dismayed Texas judge chose his words carefully in criticizing the state judicial system of which he'd been a part for more than 30 years. He used the "a spirit of vengeance" to describe the court's treatment of mentally ill offenders. The month before that, four U.S. Supreme Court justices said that the American practice of executing juvenile offenders is "shameful." They said "executing such offenders is a relic of the past and is inconsistent with evolving standards of decency in a civilized society." We all might do well to think about that notion of decency amid the jingoistic clamor to condemn Iraq's evil regime. By all means, let us have no illusions about Saddam. But let's harbor none about ourselves, either.

© Copyright 2003 Vancouver Sun
 
avethibaltus said:

I know Ave. Just something to remember when people boast about living in the #1 country for fairness, human rights and freedom. Of course, this is only one aspect of that debate.


BTW mate, did you say you were an ex-copper?🙂
 
Just remember y'all A person who gets life in prison has a right to three meals a day,clothing,a roof over thier head,a gym to workout,a library and all sorts of other stuff a working person has to pay for out in life Come to think of it a criminal has more rights than a person in the military I'm not sure if I agree with the death penalty anymore Sadly some people who were wrongly accused did die for a crime they didn't commit That is wrong But tell me this What the hell is a country supposed to do with a person who has commited mass murder? I really don't like my tax dollars going to treat these criminals good
Do some criminals deserve rehabilitation? Yes For example a person who shoplifted or didn't commit a violent crime They shoul do the jail sentence,but don't house them with the violent criminals
I know a lot of non-Americans(no disrespect meant) think America is full of a bunch of mean spirited people That is not true No country out there is perfect Y'all get on our backs for our idiot leaders critisizing your countries But yet y'all do the same thing to us
Is that the right thing to do?
If it's awhile untill I check back on this post and thread,I'm not ignoring anyone Sometimes it's hard for me to connect to the internet while I'm on the road
General Zod
A hard working truck driver who is getting more and more in favor of soylent green
 
gen.zod said:
Just remember y'all A person who gets life in prison has a right to three meals a day,clothing,a roof over thier head,a gym to workout,a library and all sorts of other stuff a working person has to pay for out in life Come to think of it a criminal has more rights than a person in the military I'm not sure if I agree with the death penalty anymore Sadly some people who were wrongly accused did die for a crime they didn't commit That is wrong But tell me this What the hell is a country supposed to do with a person who has commited mass murder? I really don't like my tax dollars going to treat these criminals good
Partly true general; but prison life is a lot less cushy than the raving-right would have you believe, to win you over to the pro-death argument. I think saying a soldier has less rights than a prisoner is quite mis-leading too. A soldier can go our for a beer with his buddies, he can go downtown on his off time and get laid. He can put a stereo and a Gamecube in his barracks room. whe was the last time you heard of a SuperMax resident doing all that?
The system is way too wobbly to allow the death penalty to be effectivley implemented. Even without the possibility of innocents being killed (although that doesn't bother everyone) there's the fact that keeping someone incarcerated in a single cell at the highest level of security for 40 years, costs half as much as trying, convicting, sentencing and implementing a death penalty case. Added to that and you've got some jury's unwillingness to reach a guilty verdict if they're worried abut the death penalty. A guilty bastard is less likely to get off is the penalty is life without parole. Your tax bucks are frittered less, when prison is used as opposed to the chair.

gen.zod said:
Do some criminals deserve rehabilitation? Yes For example a person who shoplifted or didn't commit a violent crime They shoul do the jail sentence,but don't house them with the violent criminals
I know a lot of non-Americans(no disrespect meant) think America is full of a bunch of mean spirited people That is not true No country out there is perfect Y'all get on our backs for our idiot leaders critisizing your countries But yet y'all do the same thing to us
Is that the right thing to do?
It's got mean spirited people in it certainly, but no really more than any other country. It's just that these people are more politically prominent than in most other countries. That's why America has such a bad human rights record; not because of it's bad people, but it's leaders.

gen.zod said:
If it's awhile untill I check back on this post and thread,I'm not ignoring anyone Sometimes it's hard for me to connect to the internet while I'm on the road
General Zod
A hard working truck driver who is getting more and more in favor of soylent green

We look forward to your return mate.
 
Patriotism is a clever way of putting a positive connotation on nationalism. Nationalism, of course, is how Hitler got Germany and Mao got China - and most any history book will back me up on this.

The death penalty? I vote consistently pro-life: no abortion, no death penalty (the exception is Euthenasia, of course, because what right have I to tell you whether you can or cannot live?) I have trouble accepting the apparent contradiction of the religious right calling for death penalties - did they miss that line about killing that underlies the entire religion? On a purely secular level, the constitution enshrines the INALIANABLE right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That means you can't take it away. Bottom line - no questions asked.

It amazes me there is still any debate on the topic.
 
Ticklish9's said:
Patriotism is a clever way of putting a positive connotation on nationalism. Nationalism, of course, is how Hitler got Germany and Mao got China - and most any history book will back me up on this.

The death penalty? I vote consistently pro-life: no abortion, no death penalty (the exception is Euthenasia, of course, because what right have I to tell you whether you can or cannot live?) I have trouble accepting the apparent contradiction of the religious right calling for death penalties - did they miss that line about killing that underlies the entire religion? On a purely secular level, the constitution enshrines the INALIANABLE right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. That means you can't take it away. Bottom line - no questions asked.

It amazes me there is still any debate on the topic.

Now surprisingly enough I'm anti-death penalty, but pro-choice. I don't equate the removal of a few hundred cells that is approximatley the size of a quarter of a baked bean, to killing an aware, sentinent human. I know those cells will eventually turn into an aware, sentinent human, but that would only actually matter ifit was possible to destroy the energy that comprises a human soul. It isn't. That soul belongs to Creation and nothing can destroy it.
I would'nt like to use abortion myself, but I would'nt think it my moral duty to dictate to a single mother whether or not she should be forced to have her body carry on with this process. Maybe Creation does view abortion as wrong, but if so, it's up to her to carry the responsibility for that; not congress. As for those ucking fidiots who think it's morally right to plant car bombs on doctors who carry out terminations.........:sowrong: :sowrong: :sowrong: Those bastards really ARE going straight to hell, because they're the worst kind of hypocrite. They're not carrying out something that might prevent a life being miserable and unwanted; only for it to be re-cycles back to "God". They're calculatedly destroying a sentinent human. My personal beliefs hold the two things to be vastly different.
 
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