Dave2112
Level of Cherry Feather
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2001
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I've been too emotional. I know this. So have we all. The funny thing is, it's the ones with the most "knowledge" that have tended to become the most outspoken. Something has changed that in me, and you'll probably think it silly. I, however, don't.
I was watching PBS and the Charlie Rose program. On this were three men discussing (not debating) the situation in Iraq and where the US and the UN stand in the world. They were the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia (who is also a recognized expert in Middle-Eastern affairs), the editor of a world-politics publication (not affiliated with any government), and the under-secretary general of the UN himself. What amazed me was the amount of things that these men agreed on, and how they related so closely to the things that have caused such heat right here. And how many myths could be debunked that we refuse to let go of.
I won't go into a laundry list of who said what exactly, but here are some interesting points that were agreed upon by all. I felt much better hearing this, especially from individuals who are actually in the midst of things and not just picking up bits and pieces of it all and offering personal opinions based on emotion. Some things that might shed some perspective and give us some hope...
No one in the UN is suggesting that we (the coalition) turn over control of Iraq to them. On the other side, the US isn't capable of permanantly controlling Iraq even if we wanted to.
There is less of a rift within the ranks of the UN as many would think. People are still working together toward a common goal and no one is suggesting that the US leave the UN or vice-versa. Also discussed were the differences in cultures that are creating some of the heat that we ourselves are experiencing. Europe has had 60 years of relative peace, and we must understand that after centuries of war (long before we were even a nation), they tend to like it that way. There is trepidation to war, on both sides.
Surprisingly, there is little from within the ranks of the UN that actually disagreed with us going in, it was just the sticking point of the way to go about it. In truth, and to be fair, we've done the same thing when it came to Rwanda...not going in when most others wanted to. The under-secretary of the UN even stated that a new look must be taken at how we enforce crimes against humanity. He went on to say that the greatest sticking point seems to be the UN's protection of states over the protection of people. Many (even those opposed to this war) want to see this changed.
Democratizing Iraq will be a challenge, but all involved in this discussion agreed that it is actually possible in this day and age. It's an experiment, to be sure, but one that can prove to be a stepping stone to a new world.
There have been too many threads filled with facts, figures, quotes and lists of historical events. To cut to the chase, assume for the sake of arguement that these three knowledgable and learned men ALL agreed on several important things that many are overlooking in the natural emotional state that follows ANY war....
The US is not looking to arbitrarily invade anyone that doesn't agree with her.
The UN realizes that it was tragic that things couldn't be agreed upon on paper, as we were really were all shooting for the same goal.
The world HAS come together in the face of terrorism and backed the US for the most part in trying to rid the world of evil.
The US has no desire to leave the UN, and the UN has no desire to see us leave. It would be tragic at this stage.
The one thing that must be reworked in the UN is our ability to legally overlook sovereignity in the face of massive humanitarian crimes...even the under-secretary agreed that military operations are the weak point of the UN and must be retooled.
The reactions of the world, on both sides, are natural. People's emotions run high and there is a lot of xenophobia toward that which we don't understand. This was expected.
Things are working out well, and there is no feeling of bitterness among the UN toward the coalition, more a sense of relief that it went as smoothly as it did.
Why bring this up now?
Because I've finally snapped back to reality and realized that I've been wrong, as we all have. We've let our emotions get the better of us, and the more learned we are, the more passionate we become. We forget that there are people much more knowledgable that really are working with our best interests in mind. No one wants to see the other fail. We need each other to make the planet function. There is squabbling to be sure. The juicy bits hit the news, but the behind-the-scenes stuff would probably shock a lot of us.
Perhpas it's time to take a step back, breathe and put at least a little bit of trust in those who lead us. Let's wait to see more of the outcome before we start preaching doom-and-gloom, or blaming each other for things that haven't happened yet. Or applying things that HAVE happened to today's events. History is over...we can learn from it, but it belongs to the past. The future is ours. What do we do with it? That's up to us.
Are there truly any of us who really want to see us continue to fight? Are there any of us who want to see evil prevail? Wouldn't it be nice if we could all work toward a common goal? We can, actually. But it's going to take patience and understanding.
I haven't changed my views on thinking that this was the right thing to do. But gloating about it or condemning it or picking it apart or comparing it to WWII isn't going to help anything.
To be honest, I'm a bit ashamed of the way I've presented some of my views. I don't know everything, and niether do any of you. However, there are people that know a hell of a lot more than a bunch of folks on a tickling board. Maybe we should start trusting them to steer us in the right direction. Let the leaders lead. I'm sure that it would be easier if they didn't have to worry about the views we have toward one another. Sure, mistakes were made politically. But none of them are irreparable. We've gotten through some tough times together, and if you look back on the same history that you love to pick and choose your arguments from, you'll learn something. Evil has never prevailed for long when we've all worked together.
There are going to be knee-jerk reactions to events, especially in this day and age of instant access to everything. We tend to want solutions to things as soon as we see them. It just doesn't work that way. Let's get real for a moment. We may not agree with the way we've treated each other, but do really think that anyone in the civilized world goes out of thier way to piss each other off out of arrogance? I may not like the stand the French took, but I can't believe that Jacques Chirac woke up one morning and said "How can I piss off the Americans today?" It's not like Bush is sitting in the White House saying "Who do we invade next?"
Perhpas we see to many movies, perhaps there are too many conspiracy theories, I don't know. But if you look at the big picture, get all of the facts, and leave emotion out of it...we're really not trying to hurt each other. No world leader of a civilized nation with half a brain thinks that they can rule the world. Nor would they want to. There will always be rifts between cultures. There will always be misunderstandings of intentions. Hell, there are even misinterpretations of what's said on the news due to simple things like linguistics. These things then get swept up in the heat of arguement, quoted and misquoted to death, and the next thing you know....the very people who need to be a driving force in ridding the world of evil are at each other's throats.
We're never going to agree on everything, but we do all need to go in the same general direction. I think that we are, actually.
Don't base your opinions on world events on what you read here. We all have our opinions and our say, but don't let any self-proclaimed "expert" make your decisions for you....or bait you into a challenge. The best thing you can do is to be informed. Get the big picture. Seek it out, don't wait for it to come to you. Get both sides to any story that makes you hot and bothered before you add fuel to it. You might be surprised how much we all have in common when you break it down to it's smallest common denominator. regardless of the conspiracy theories and the two opposing sides of the public that have come from this, things on a global level are really not as bad as we tend to make them out to be.
Marauder said something that I once held true to and have sadly drifted from...about the blind allegience to a nationality. I'm proud to be an American...but not just because it's where I live. That should never be the reason. We are all Citizens of the World, and our very survival depends on our interaction with each other.
We are right to debate, it is healthy. But I urge that we try to be a bit more compassionate to each other and realize that we all want the same thing. There IS a way to achieve this, it just takes work.
In closing, I think I'm going back to my usual role as impartial mediator and general diplomat. I need to apologize for the way I've come across...not to any of you, but to myself. I still stand by my convictions, but I've allowed myself to get too emotional about them and this has affected my objectivity. I've gone against everything I claimed to have stood for, and it's taken it's toll. Events that shape history itself tend to do this to people, and I guess none of us are above it. We all want to be right, but we can't afford to take sides anymore....not unless it's in the game of Good vs. Evil.
Americans...Europe is not actively working against us at every turn.
Europeans...America is not trying to take over the world and really does want to work with everyone.
We need to believe this. It may not seem that way, but there really is so little of the big picture that any of us can say we know. Neither side of the Atlantic has all the answers, but together we just might figure it out.
I think it's time I went back to enjoying this place as a tickling forum full of friends and aquaintances that I share a common bond with. Having winessed intelligent men woking together to dispel some of the most commonly held myths has done me a world of good and helped to rebuild my faith in humanity. Do yourselves a favor....gain as much impartial knowledge as you can and open yourselves up to all sides of things.
Maybe then we can get things done and finally live in peace. That's what we're all after.
I was watching PBS and the Charlie Rose program. On this were three men discussing (not debating) the situation in Iraq and where the US and the UN stand in the world. They were the former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia (who is also a recognized expert in Middle-Eastern affairs), the editor of a world-politics publication (not affiliated with any government), and the under-secretary general of the UN himself. What amazed me was the amount of things that these men agreed on, and how they related so closely to the things that have caused such heat right here. And how many myths could be debunked that we refuse to let go of.
I won't go into a laundry list of who said what exactly, but here are some interesting points that were agreed upon by all. I felt much better hearing this, especially from individuals who are actually in the midst of things and not just picking up bits and pieces of it all and offering personal opinions based on emotion. Some things that might shed some perspective and give us some hope...
No one in the UN is suggesting that we (the coalition) turn over control of Iraq to them. On the other side, the US isn't capable of permanantly controlling Iraq even if we wanted to.
There is less of a rift within the ranks of the UN as many would think. People are still working together toward a common goal and no one is suggesting that the US leave the UN or vice-versa. Also discussed were the differences in cultures that are creating some of the heat that we ourselves are experiencing. Europe has had 60 years of relative peace, and we must understand that after centuries of war (long before we were even a nation), they tend to like it that way. There is trepidation to war, on both sides.
Surprisingly, there is little from within the ranks of the UN that actually disagreed with us going in, it was just the sticking point of the way to go about it. In truth, and to be fair, we've done the same thing when it came to Rwanda...not going in when most others wanted to. The under-secretary of the UN even stated that a new look must be taken at how we enforce crimes against humanity. He went on to say that the greatest sticking point seems to be the UN's protection of states over the protection of people. Many (even those opposed to this war) want to see this changed.
Democratizing Iraq will be a challenge, but all involved in this discussion agreed that it is actually possible in this day and age. It's an experiment, to be sure, but one that can prove to be a stepping stone to a new world.
There have been too many threads filled with facts, figures, quotes and lists of historical events. To cut to the chase, assume for the sake of arguement that these three knowledgable and learned men ALL agreed on several important things that many are overlooking in the natural emotional state that follows ANY war....
The US is not looking to arbitrarily invade anyone that doesn't agree with her.
The UN realizes that it was tragic that things couldn't be agreed upon on paper, as we were really were all shooting for the same goal.
The world HAS come together in the face of terrorism and backed the US for the most part in trying to rid the world of evil.
The US has no desire to leave the UN, and the UN has no desire to see us leave. It would be tragic at this stage.
The one thing that must be reworked in the UN is our ability to legally overlook sovereignity in the face of massive humanitarian crimes...even the under-secretary agreed that military operations are the weak point of the UN and must be retooled.
The reactions of the world, on both sides, are natural. People's emotions run high and there is a lot of xenophobia toward that which we don't understand. This was expected.
Things are working out well, and there is no feeling of bitterness among the UN toward the coalition, more a sense of relief that it went as smoothly as it did.
Why bring this up now?
Because I've finally snapped back to reality and realized that I've been wrong, as we all have. We've let our emotions get the better of us, and the more learned we are, the more passionate we become. We forget that there are people much more knowledgable that really are working with our best interests in mind. No one wants to see the other fail. We need each other to make the planet function. There is squabbling to be sure. The juicy bits hit the news, but the behind-the-scenes stuff would probably shock a lot of us.
Perhpas it's time to take a step back, breathe and put at least a little bit of trust in those who lead us. Let's wait to see more of the outcome before we start preaching doom-and-gloom, or blaming each other for things that haven't happened yet. Or applying things that HAVE happened to today's events. History is over...we can learn from it, but it belongs to the past. The future is ours. What do we do with it? That's up to us.
Are there truly any of us who really want to see us continue to fight? Are there any of us who want to see evil prevail? Wouldn't it be nice if we could all work toward a common goal? We can, actually. But it's going to take patience and understanding.
I haven't changed my views on thinking that this was the right thing to do. But gloating about it or condemning it or picking it apart or comparing it to WWII isn't going to help anything.
To be honest, I'm a bit ashamed of the way I've presented some of my views. I don't know everything, and niether do any of you. However, there are people that know a hell of a lot more than a bunch of folks on a tickling board. Maybe we should start trusting them to steer us in the right direction. Let the leaders lead. I'm sure that it would be easier if they didn't have to worry about the views we have toward one another. Sure, mistakes were made politically. But none of them are irreparable. We've gotten through some tough times together, and if you look back on the same history that you love to pick and choose your arguments from, you'll learn something. Evil has never prevailed for long when we've all worked together.
There are going to be knee-jerk reactions to events, especially in this day and age of instant access to everything. We tend to want solutions to things as soon as we see them. It just doesn't work that way. Let's get real for a moment. We may not agree with the way we've treated each other, but do really think that anyone in the civilized world goes out of thier way to piss each other off out of arrogance? I may not like the stand the French took, but I can't believe that Jacques Chirac woke up one morning and said "How can I piss off the Americans today?" It's not like Bush is sitting in the White House saying "Who do we invade next?"
Perhpas we see to many movies, perhaps there are too many conspiracy theories, I don't know. But if you look at the big picture, get all of the facts, and leave emotion out of it...we're really not trying to hurt each other. No world leader of a civilized nation with half a brain thinks that they can rule the world. Nor would they want to. There will always be rifts between cultures. There will always be misunderstandings of intentions. Hell, there are even misinterpretations of what's said on the news due to simple things like linguistics. These things then get swept up in the heat of arguement, quoted and misquoted to death, and the next thing you know....the very people who need to be a driving force in ridding the world of evil are at each other's throats.
We're never going to agree on everything, but we do all need to go in the same general direction. I think that we are, actually.
Don't base your opinions on world events on what you read here. We all have our opinions and our say, but don't let any self-proclaimed "expert" make your decisions for you....or bait you into a challenge. The best thing you can do is to be informed. Get the big picture. Seek it out, don't wait for it to come to you. Get both sides to any story that makes you hot and bothered before you add fuel to it. You might be surprised how much we all have in common when you break it down to it's smallest common denominator. regardless of the conspiracy theories and the two opposing sides of the public that have come from this, things on a global level are really not as bad as we tend to make them out to be.
Marauder said something that I once held true to and have sadly drifted from...about the blind allegience to a nationality. I'm proud to be an American...but not just because it's where I live. That should never be the reason. We are all Citizens of the World, and our very survival depends on our interaction with each other.
We are right to debate, it is healthy. But I urge that we try to be a bit more compassionate to each other and realize that we all want the same thing. There IS a way to achieve this, it just takes work.
In closing, I think I'm going back to my usual role as impartial mediator and general diplomat. I need to apologize for the way I've come across...not to any of you, but to myself. I still stand by my convictions, but I've allowed myself to get too emotional about them and this has affected my objectivity. I've gone against everything I claimed to have stood for, and it's taken it's toll. Events that shape history itself tend to do this to people, and I guess none of us are above it. We all want to be right, but we can't afford to take sides anymore....not unless it's in the game of Good vs. Evil.
Americans...Europe is not actively working against us at every turn.
Europeans...America is not trying to take over the world and really does want to work with everyone.
We need to believe this. It may not seem that way, but there really is so little of the big picture that any of us can say we know. Neither side of the Atlantic has all the answers, but together we just might figure it out.
I think it's time I went back to enjoying this place as a tickling forum full of friends and aquaintances that I share a common bond with. Having winessed intelligent men woking together to dispel some of the most commonly held myths has done me a world of good and helped to rebuild my faith in humanity. Do yourselves a favor....gain as much impartial knowledge as you can and open yourselves up to all sides of things.
Maybe then we can get things done and finally live in peace. That's what we're all after.
Q
