Abortion?

[BigJim]

I sincerely apologize to all the males as I know it sounds unfair, but I really feel that what happens to my body is up to me. When we can *both* go through the emotional, physical and psychological consequences of child-bearing, the decisions will also be for both of us.

I agree with you there Bella. I think the important point is though, that the father be given the courtesy of involvement in the decision making process. Nothing can take way the mother's right to her own body, but civillised input from all parties involved is important too.

 

[BigJim]

Here's an interesting case I remember from a few years back. I believe I was about 17 when I heard about this.

A 14 year-old schoolgirl was making her way home from school in the Irish republic. It was a dark november or December night and there weren't many peope around. Cue rat-vermin-asshole waiting in dark alley.......

14 year-old schoolgirl is subsequently attacked, beaten and repeatedly raped over about 5 hours. Police found her unconscious under a pile of cardboard boxes, covered in blood and close to death from hypothermia too.

The inevitable happens and the girl becomes pregnant. Now EIRE is a catholic dminated country and the rules of the Catholic Church go a looooonnnnnnggggggg way. The girl and her family were trying to arrange for her to go to a hospital in Liverpool to arrange a discrete termination and hopefully, begin the psychological healing process.

Cue instant deluge of do-gooding, nose-poking-into other people's business gits appearing all over the Irish TV and newspapers condeming the girl's family for postulating such an evil alternative. Civil suits were raised in the courts to confiscate the girl's and her parents passports to prevent them travelling abroad and the Pope himself sent a message asking her not to terminate. (Even offering her money if memory serves correctly.)

A very clear-cut case of people believeing that responsibility should be taken out of the hands of private citizens and given into the hands of the state. (And in this case, the church too.) Does anyone here agree with the level of do-gooding that occured in this case? I'm happy to say that the case swung in favour of the girl being allowed to travel to Liverpool for the termination. (Being catholic dominated, abortion is illegal in Ireland, or at least it was at this time.)

Your thoughts peeps?

 

[kurchatovium]

That is a questionable reason, as this borders on euthanasia. What if the kid shows clear signs of a genetic defeciency (mongolism etc.), or other signs of disability (crippled limbs, siamese twins, brain damages etc.)?

Sigh...why don't I just stick to marmalade. Oh well let me try to answer this then go back to where I truly belong. Hal I am not talking about offing every fetus that has some small genetic defeciency and I think kids with mongolodism should be brought to term because if you ask most people with that affliction if they are happy they will answer yes. However if a fetus is severely deformed with a great number of maladies and has no prospect for surviving very long then I think it is cruel to bring that baby to term and just to let it suffer before it dies. I do not put siamese twins, crippled limbs in that category because medicine can help those children quite a bit.

Let me just add why is it you assume the worse of me? That somehow I am on some crusade to rid the world of all genetic defects. Why couldn't you have assumed that I just don't want to see any living thing suffer needlessly especially a small baby? Which is really the only reason I added that comment that started this. Perhaps I should have worded things more carefully but I grow tired of having to defend myself everytime I don't dot all my i's and cross all my t's. Forgive me for my rant its nothing personal more to do with serious threads than with you Hal or anyone else in particular. I shall now go back to balls of hyperplasma, cuddly teddy bears, and marmalade which I find infinitely more pleasurable.😀

 

[Deleted member 2452]

oh boy, here i go...

i passed up this thread before, then read it yesterday, but decided not to respond. now i re-read it today, and decided to post.

how about using a some-what simple method to decide when the baby is alive? brain activity. it's what is used to determine death in most states, and courts now, so why not use it to determine life?
btw, it starts at about 10 weeks.

one penis=no vote? well excuse the heck out of me! how about 1 vagina=prejudise self centered opinions?

in all of america, if a girl/woman is really raped, all she has to do is go to a hospital, and report it. a d&c is automaticlly done, and POOF! no more chance of pregnancy! the sad fact is, most, (nearly all) abortions are done as after the fact birth control. that sickens me.

i am to this day suffering the mental affects of abortion. my wife has had 2 of them. 2 beautifull babies i will never get to hold, never get to coach in soft ball, never get a chance to worry over.
so don't anyone tell me men have no vote, the babies are ours too! they are just as much of our bodies as the mothers!

steve

 

[BigJim]

Re: oh boy, here i go...

how about using a some-what simple method to decide when the baby is alive? brain activity. it's what is used to determine death in most states, and courts now, so why not use it to determine life?
btw, it starts at about 10 weeks.

Not a bad idea. In fact it's one of the better ones I've heard that are compatible with provable science.

in all of america, if a girl/woman is really raped, all she has to do is go to a hospital, and report it. a d&c is automaticlly done, and POOF! no more chance of pregnancy! the sad fact is, most, (nearly all) abortions are done as after the fact birth control. that sickens me.

Yep that's perfectly true. Reporting it straight away will often prevent unwanted pregnancy because the clinical search for "evidence" doubles up on it's results. I should have thought of that one myself.
Second point is true too. Quite often it's because of a lack of responsibility. Not always though.

i am to this day suffering the mental affects of abortion. my wife has had 2 of them. 2 beautifull babies i will never get to hold, never get to coach in soft ball, never get a chance to worry over.
so don't anyone tell me men have no vote, the babies are ours too! they are just as much of our bodies as the mothers!

steve

Sorry to hear about your pain mate. You know the addy if you ever want to share.

 

[BellaRisa]

Brain activity. It's what is used to determine death in most states, and courts now, so why not use it to determine life?

By far one of the best replies I've read, thank you Steve!

i am to this day suffering the mental affects of abortion. my wife has had 2 of them. 2 beautifull babies i will never get to hold, never get to coach in soft ball, never get a chance to worry over.

(Hugs)I am so, so sorry to hear that, I know how my husband grieved over the baby we lost and my heart truly goes out to you.

Having said that...

don't anyone tell me men have no vote, the babies are ours too! they are just as much of our bodies as the mothers!

I believe that fathers have every right to voice opinion on this subject, to be informed and in on any decisions. But as a two-time veteran of the maternity ward I beg to differ on that last part. Even the world's best father cannot yet go through nine months of the phenomenon that is pregnancy. Until you can share in everything from the nausea to the insane pressure on your organs and muscles to the incredibly volatile emotional rollercoaster that is childbearing, I'm afraid the male vote will hold considerably less weight. I'm NOT saying that's fair, but neither is saying "we're pregnant" while *I* can't have a beer and feel like my bladder is going to explode any minute. Trust me, if we could take turns I'd be all for it.

If a man doesn't want to father the child he's made, he can walk away. Laws are making that far more difficult but it can still happen. A woman who's conceived but doesn't want to be a mother can NOT simply leave town. Her uterus tends to go where she goes. Therein lies a major difference.

Bella

 

[TickledToDeath]

Simple

NO woman,group of women, group of people, or any ONE person including governmental, should have the right to tell another woman what she can or should do with or to her body. PERIOD.


TTD😎

 

[terorizer]

Inspired by BigJim's reply in a different thread (moral dilemmas), I'd like to know about your views on abortion.

Wow, it's been years since I've heard/had a discussion on abortion. Unfortunately, I don't have a well thought out reply, so I can only express my views in thoughts...

It scares me for two reasons. First, because of the conversations I've had with friends who've had abortions. Their eyes, their tone and disposition just goes completely lifeless when discussing the experience, which leads me to believe nobody really knows what effects it can have on a mother. Secondly, because there's no way (as far as I'm concerned) to quantify the effects of an abortion, it comes across to me like a medication that hasn't been thoroughly tested or hasn't been around long enough, so nobody really can say what will happen long-term.

I think it's terribly wrong that my friend at 15, impregnated by consensual sex with her boyfriend, had an abortion and to this day neither parent knows, yet she couldn't go on a field trip to the state capitol without a parent's signature.

I think ObleedingMe's point is terribly valid, in that if a man has no say so, and a woman has the choice, why should he bear legal responsibility one or the other? (regardless of what a real man would do) The precedent is only on short well-financed, slick legal defense away.

I do feel when a woman conceives on her own, that's when she has %100 responsibility.

I know that when discussion of abortion comes up, people invariably bring up "rape" and "incest". While I know these occur far more than any of us would probably want to admit or know, I believe the prevailing consciousness in this country towards abortion relates to it more as birth control, instead of a means to at least attempt to partially help heal after such a horrific event.

I think the slogan "Pro Life doesn't mean Anti-Choice" best describes me. I'm always for the choice of life, because I think each birth is hope for a better humanity, even if the child isn't Mozart or Martin Luther King Jr.

I think NOBODY has the right to tell a victim what to feel, even if they've experienced the same thing.

I think of abortion clinic bombers and shooters as the deranged, inbred bigger cousins of folks who spray paint "Earth Day Everyday" on buildings.

I think those are all my views.

 

[Ticklebell]

Oh this subject. I consider myself to be a morally conservative democrat. I am also an agnostic. Just to give a bit of background on where I stand.

I don't know how the statement of "A woman should do whatever she wants with her body" can be backed up when it comes to abortion. Mind you, this is NOT an attack, just my thoughts. It's just that a baby isn't part of your body, it's inside your body. I am thoroughly pro-life, and am anti-abortion (I HATE the term anti-choice. It's so far off.) as well as anti-capital punishment. I view a baby as alive the second it is conceived. That is your child. People need to take responsibility. I understand that people do get raped, but all I know is two wrongs do not make a right. I believe you can learn wonderful things from horrible experiences. Knowing that a beautiful child can come out of a horrible act would make me feel wonderful, even if I were planning to give up the baby for adoption, which is beyond wonderful. I just wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I had had a child killed. In the US alone, abortion is so widely performed. Every year here, literally tens of millions of unborn children are aborted. The number of Jewish victims of the Holocaust pales to this horrible figure. And with that huge number of abortions per year, how many of those really come out of rape. It's just convenience for the most part, which makes me feel awful about the people in this world. Just take responsibility.
On another note, nothing makes me angrier than those abortion protestors who hang around holding posters of dead babies. That is just not appropriate. You don't make a point by horrifying people, nor with violence. It's hypocritical. I remember seeing those people hanging around my elementary school. What point were they trying to make by that? It's just stupid. Being a precocious child, I marched right up to the fence of the school yard and told them off. I had other points to make but I;ve forgotten. Ah well. "It's been a long, been a long, been a long, been a long day." Name that musical! Mwah!
-Bell

 

[BigJim]

Interesting points TickleBell and very well written. I have a question.

Given what your views are, do you believe that you have the right to tell or force by judicial means, other women what to do with their bodies? (Yes the embryo is inside, but it requires a host to feed from before it can become a foetus and then a full-blown baby.)

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but do you believe that pro-life people should have the right to dictate to pro-choice candidates for a termination, through the courts, or any other method or process?

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Abortion?

which leads me to believe nobody really knows what effects it can have on a mother. Secondly, because there's no way (as far as I'm concerned) to quantify the effects of an abortion, it comes across to me like a medication that hasn't been thoroughly tested or hasn't been around long enough, so nobody really can say what will happen long-term.

I agree totally with you. I think a lot more work needs to be in researching this. We definately need more help with caring for mothers who need emotional councelling after a termination.

I think it's terribly wrong that my friend at 15, impregnated by consensual sex with her boyfriend, had an abortion and to this day neither parent knows, yet she couldn't go on a field trip to the state capitol without a parent's signature.

Yes, that is wrong. Ugh. Even if the girl had had the ultimate choice in the matter, her parents should have known about it. In the UK you cannot have a general anaethetic without parental consent anyway, so it's a moot point here.

I know that when discussion of abortion comes up, people invariably bring up "rape" and "incest". While I know these occur far more than any of us would probably want to admit or know, I believe the prevailing consciousness in this country towards abortion relates to it more as birth control, instead of a means to at least attempt to partially help heal after such a horrific event.

I agree. I don't believe there's anything wrong or irresponsible in using it as birth control when a couple of methods of birth control were applied before the act, but failed though. I ALWAYS use at least one, but feel more comfortable with two. But condoms burst, and there are things which can render the pill ineffective. If both happened together, I don't think you can penalise the parents for being irresponsible.

I think NOBODY has the right to tell a victim what to feel, even if they've experienced the same thing.

Correct, and very refreshing and liberating to hear. 🙂 Lots of people have opinions both for and against, but no-one has the right to dictate to anyone else.

I think of abortion clinic bombers and shooters as the deranged, inbred bigger cousins of folks who spray paint "Earth Day Everyday" on buildings.

If any asshole is destined for hell, it's those who take life like terrorists whilst calling themselves "pro-life". These people have no priorites, they are just sick.

 

[Haltickling]

I understand that people do get raped, but all I know is two wrongs do not make a right. I believe you can learn wonderful things from horrible experiences. Knowing that a beautiful child can come out of a horrible act would make me feel wonderful, even if I were planning to give up the baby for adoption, which is beyond wonderful.

I agree with almost everything you say, Ticklebell, except that quote above.

Getting raped results in a severe trauma, and some people will never get over it. To feel the result of a horrible crime inside the woman's womb for months, the pain of childbearing that result, will make it infinitely more difficult to overcome the trauma. True, every child is something wonderful, but I think the mother will feel ashamed for that child for all her life, and everytime she looks at it, she'll be reminded of her rape.

Two remarks on other replies in this thread: There's a reason why so many women don't go to hospital after a rape: They feel dirty, shameful, abused, and the prospect of talking about this horrible experience again keeps many women away from hospitals and police stations. Quite frequently, they don't even tell their parents. They just want to forget it as quickly as possible, usually not realising that they will never be able to forget.

The attitude of some policemen, lawyers, and judges isn't very encouraging either: Quite often, the defendant's lawyer will try to put most of the blame on the victim, saying she provoked it with clothing, her slutty behavior, or the way that she danced. And the victim has to speak about the horrible experience again, this time in front of a lot of strangers. A former colleague of mine was raped when she was 16, and even 10 years later, she broke out in tears when talking about it.

The other item I wanted to address: Should abortion be illegal if the ongoing pregnancy or the birth itself bears severe risks for the mother's health (physically and mentally)? Only two or three of you have touched this point so far. How about the others?

 

[BigJim]

Hell no Hal, it definately should not!!!

 

[Deleted member 2452]

so many points to cover...

first hal's; if there is a medical need for an abortion, then i'd be for it. as to your other points about a rape victim; true many victims don't come forward, and some that do are treated badly by the court system. the need here is education, both for the potential victims, and law enforcment. but once again in the u.s. at least, the major concern is for the poor accused.

big jim, the way you decribe the unborn infant, could be used to discribe a moscito, or tape worm. i think a human baby is a few steps above that, don't you? it is true, a human baby needs to gestate for 9 months, but it is not part of the mother (host). it is a seperate, and equal entity, and after some 10 weeks is demosterably alive!

interesting terminology in this debate. i think from now on i will use the term pro-death when talking about pro-abortion folks. to tell the truth, i have cheered when i heard an abortion clinic was bombed. like i would have cheered if a nazi concentration camp gas chamber would have been bombed!

the idea of "you can't tell a woman what to do with her body" argument is trash. it's done all the time. from, you can't murder someone, you can't commite suicide, you must use seat belts, you can't steal, etc.. women, and men live by rules all day long, so why is taking the life of a baby waiting to be born ok, and some how above the idea of rules/law?

lastly, if a woman gets an abortion, she isn't entitled to the label "mother". she gave up that privilage when she ended the pregnancy. btw, anestethia is not used during abortions, so no consent needs to be signed. one more step to keep us parents out of the process.
steve

 

[BigJim]

Re: so many points to cover...

big jim, the way you decribe the unborn infant, could be used to discribe a moscito, or tape worm. i think a human baby is a few steps above that, don't you? it is true, a human baby needs to gestate for 9 months, but it is not part of the mother (host). it is a seperate, and equal entity, and after some 10 weeks is demosterably alive!

Sorry if my terminology offended you Steve. I was trying to sound as scientific as possible, not emotionless.
This is a scientific subject as well as an emotional one, so what I'm about to say isn't an attempt to split hairs or be picky; I'm just being exact. I'm sure you'll find this a very emotive subject my friend, bearing in mind what you mentioned the other day. Please remember that we more than 50% agree with each other on this subject, so let's not fight.

I would disagree that it's demonstrably alive at 10 weeks. I think you could call it that after 10 seconds. Single cell organisms are all alive. I think the pertinent question is when the foetus is demonstrably sentinent.(I believe "viable" is the medical word.) Now when you mentioned the 10 weeks figure above, I agreed with you. I think that is a fair figure. I think it's also enough time for someone to find out they're pregnant and decide what to do about it. To confront it in that time, you'd need a responsible person who isn't afraid to confront issues in their life. Everyone needs to accept that level of responsibility.

As for comparing human life to mosquitos, well I'm quite Bhuddist in my reasoning there. I don't value any life form above human, and I don't value human life below any other. It means more to me certainly, because I'm more emotionally attached to humans than I am to mosquitos; but all life is equally valuable and important to the universe IMHO.
That's why I may sound cold to you in my definition of an embryo. Not because I have less regard for human life, but because I have an equally high regard for all life.


Personally, I'm against abortion. I think people attract experiences to them spiritually (good and bad) and I think they are there to learn from. I tend to think an abortion is a waste of a learning experience as well as waste of a potentially beautiful life. I wouldn't however, stop someone or have the bald-assed cheek to try to stop someone else from having one by court action or any other means. I would be interfering in their spiritual learning process, or if you look at it from a religious point of view, interfering in God's work.

I have to agree with Hal on the point he made about long term trauma. Even though the consequences of an abortion can be very stressful to the mother, so can the consequences of trying to raise a child who was created out of the most traumatic incident in her life.

 

[Lazarus]

No Choice

I must say, this is a subject that is not necessarily close to my heart, but it, in a way, has had a part in my life....

I lost my oldest daughter on September 23rd, 1995....my youngest son Daniel and she were twins, and my ex-wife miscarried our daughter....luckily, my son lived.

I was with a woman, sexually, a couple years after my divorce, and had previously explained what had happened, and she looked at me- before sex- and said," Well, don't worry....if I get pregnant, I can always get an abortion."

I broke it off, needless to say.

I am sick and tired of women using the "My Choice" excuse for being able to go around with no protection.....

Now, don't flame me, of course I am not refering to all women, just those who use the excuse mentioned above.

Men aren't exempt from this chastising, but it is women who ultimately make that fateful choice.

I can see that in extreme cases, the mother's and/or baby's health being in serious jepoardy, but in the cases of rape, or anything like that?

No.

And, the father should have the legal rights in cases like this.

"It's my body."

No. It's a baby inside your body.

The baby did no wrong; why punish it, and kill it for nothing....

Murder, plain and simple.

There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of very loving, caring couples worldwide, who would, and cannot, have children. Adoption is always an alternative.

But, look at it with a realistic point of view....you play, you pay.

Cover your willy....

Cap your tap.

Don't put yourself into a position like that to begin with....

As far as my opinion goes...

Like it; don't like it; but you must respect it, as I respect all the opinions posted not only here, but wherever I may encounter them.

Lazzy

 

[BigJim]

Re: No Choice

I am sick and tired of women using the "My Choice" excuse for being able to go around with no protection.....

Very good point, and one I agree with totally mate.

I can see that in extreme cases, the mother's and/or baby's health being in serious jepoardy, but in the cases of rape, or anything like that?

No.

I think you're making the mistake of thinking the only potential health damage lies with the physical body Laz. The implications of an enforced pregnancy having a serious effect on a woman's mental health are very high. Mental and emotional problems always spill over into the physical world too.

And, the father should have the legal rights in cases like this.

"It's my body."

No. It's a baby inside your body.....

No-one's disputing that, but in certain cases I don't think it's morally wrong for a woman to choose to terminate an embryo that needs to use her as a host to grow into a foetus.

The baby did no wrong; why punish it, and kill it for nothing....

Murder, plain and simple.

I disagree with that. I don't think stopping a ball of a few dozen cells from turning into a sentinent foetus constitutes murder, because even thogh it's "alive" and capable of division, it isn't a sentinent being any more than a protozoa is. It certainly has the capability of becoming a sentinent being, and that of course is where all the important emotional feelings come in. They very much need attending to in everyone.

Adoption is always an alternative.

[/B][/QUOTE]
True it is, but in the case of a pregnancy resulting from rape, it's not just the raising and paying for the baby afterwards that's the issue. It's the vital emotional issues resulting from being forced to carry to full term what the woman's sub-conscious mind may interpret as an invading alien. Weird language I know, but quite often that is the case.

I do respect your opinions Laz, but I would like to ask you the same question I asked a couple of others. You arrived at your opinions through a combination of reasoning thought and hard personal experience. Do you believe other people should have that same right, or do you believe that people from the pro-life lobby shuld have the right to force them to do what they think they should and live their lives according to other people's principles?

This to me is almost as important as the question of abortion itself. Should people who've never met these people, have the right to force them into doing something they don't want to?How far does personal responsibility go? How far does nanny-stating go?I'd be very interested to hear other people's opinions on this.

 

[Dragon321]

i just know i'm going to get flamed....🙁

i think humanity has an obligation to keep to a more "natural" population plateau. there are just too many of us. it is becoming an unsustainable quantity. now, from a humane point of view, i theoretically agree with china. we must focus on improving life for the existing populace before excacerbating the problem. the fact of the matter is that we are breeding unchecked. we have no natural predators, our lifespans and health has been augmented, our way of life has improved for some. these are all good. however, with these benefits comes responsibility. it is our duty to slow the population expansion. we owe it to the world that spawned us, to our race, to the other species that we trample on in our walks of life. if population control is good enough for animals, it is good enough for us. i believe that we should have to fill out paperwork for our offsprink, and establish a wealth-and-merit-based (mainly merit) aspect of childbirth. this may seem cold and clinical, but something must be done. we are raping the world: it groans under the tread of billions of feet. i am an advocate of controlling the population of every species to an acceptable limit. however, i think that this should begin with safe protected sex as an obligatory measure, and abortion should only be used as a last resort. knowledge and prophilactics should be universally spread, regardless of religious sanctions. i think the pope and other leaders should advocate birth control and safe sex. i believe that all sex should be protected, unless the couple is attempting to conceive. however, i do not advocate late abortion or abortion of convenience. such people who do this are out of line. safe sex: it's the only way to go. perhaps even sterilisation? who knows?

now, educated responses to my drunken ramblings, anyone?

 

[Deleted member 2452]

btw jim, i wasn't mad at you.

and i think i answered your question already; with my take on living in society under rules, and laws.
we don't need to know a person to say "buckle your seat belt", and "you can not steal", so why not, "no, you can't kill your waiting to be born baby". yes there are exeptions, and i have agreed to some, and given a very good rule of thumb to follow concerning when the baby is "alive"(brain activity).
but it doesn't matter what you or i think. as long as we have selfish women who want after the fact birth control (may they all get aids) we'll be stuck with the slaughter of the unborn.
steve

 

[BigJim]

Re: btw jim, i wasn't mad at you.

and i think i answered your question already; with my take on living in society under rules, and laws.
we don't need to know a person to say "buckle your seat belt", and "you can not steal", so why not, "no, you can't kill your waiting to be born baby". yes there are exeptions, and i have agreed to some, and given a very good rule of thumb to follow concerning when the baby is "alive"(brain activity).

So you do believe that women should be forcibly prevented from having a termination, when their situation doesn't meet the regs? Okay mate, no big.

Personally I don't believe that anyone (including the state) has the right to intervene, whatever her reasoning, so long as she does it before the embryo becomes an "alive/sentinent" foetus. I may strongly disagree with her decision and reasoning, but I wouldn't stop her. I think the stuff about involving the father is very important, but it's down to personal morality. Like the freedom of sexual choice, if someone is going to non-criminally fuck with someone's life, it's not the law's business. A tragedy yes..... But nothing to do with farting lawyers and self-righteous groups who exist only to rule other people's existences.

 

[BigJim]

i just know i'm going to get flamed....🙁

i think humanity has an obligation to keep to a more "natural" population plateau. there are just too many of us. it is becoming an unsustainable quantity. now, from a humane point of view, i theoretically agree with china. we must focus on improving life for the existing populace before excacerbating the problem. the fact of the matter is that we are breeding unchecked.

I think that sounds very dangerously like selective breeding to me. I personally could'nt even think of anything like it.

Coming also from my spiritual point of view, I think there has to be a certain amount of hardship in the world for people to learn what true paradise really is. I also believe that someone who is disabled can appreciate and love their life much more than someone who is able-bodied, but incapable of being at peace.

I think too much emphasis is placed on physical perfection, when the physical state is just a learning process. It's the mental and emotional state of mankind we should be more concerned with.

 

[Haltickling]

Overpopulation?

While I generally agree that there are far too many people on earth already, the problem of over-population is mainly the distribution: Most poor, underdeveloped Third-World countries suffer from over-population, while many industrial nations experience drastical birthrate-reductions. The age pyramid here in Old Europe gets reversed, which is the reason for many of our financial problems, paying for pensions and the health system.

I won't go deeper into my views om the reasons as this isn't the topic here. But we certainly have to find away to get a grip on the general development of lopsided over-population. You've got a similar problem in the USA: The rate of young Latinos and African-Americans is growing, while the majority of white Americans seem to have something else to do than to sire offspring...

As to your statement that we have no predators, I object. Our predators are the traffic, cardiac infarctions, drugs, and cancer. These "civilization-bred" predators kill more people than most famines or natural catastrophes, and we produce them ourselves! Unhealthy nutrition, little exercise, too many cars and too many reckless drivers, and the general pollution of our environment.

 

[Lazarus]

Part II

Firstly, I can, obviously not firsthand, but I can see the point of view of the rape abortion...why go thru the reminder for 9 months of a rape? Good point, I hadn't considered it....

Now, understand, while I do indeed take the side of pro-life moreso than pro-choice, I in no way, condone the actions of the "Bible-thumping" contigency of the Pro-Lifers, who will hide behind and use a book to hurt, maim, kill, and carry out hypocracy, all in the name of their "God".

That, to me, is just insane....how does the bombing of an abortion clinic justify any means whatsoever? They say to prevent killings, but what had they just done? Killed off people who had families of their own....

But, not to get OT, if a rape or other sexual crime results in pregnancy, I suppose the choice of carrying the child(ren) to term should be the woman's choice....

BUT, when a father- when the sex is consentual- is involved, I feel that the old "You play, you pay", to quote myself, comes into play, and an unborn child should not be killed, for the reasoning of, "Well, he forgot to use a condom", or "We had unprotected sex, but I'm not ready for the responsibility of parenthood"....

Well, that may be, but I feel that is wrong, and a wrong instance for aborting a child.

And to use the excuse "Well, a child is not what fits into my plans right now....I have a life of my own"....

No.

That is when adoption could come into play, or some other alternatives.

As I stated before, like it or not, please respect my opinions, as I respect everyone else's.....

And as much as I love tickling, it is very encouraging to have other discussions OT of tickling as well.....

I have a GREAT amount of respect for those running this and the Yahoo temp. site, and that includes Myriads, all the mods....(yes, Pawsie, you too...😉), and everyone who contributes to interesting discussions, and whatnot....

Lazzy

 

[BigJim]

Re: Part II

Now, understand, while I do indeed take the side of pro-life moreso than pro-choice, I in no way, condone the actions of the "Bible-thumping" contigency of the Pro-Lifers, who will hide behind and use a book to hurt, maim, kill, and carry out hypocracy, all in the name of their "God".

Amen brother!

That, to me, is just insane....how does the bombing of an abortion clinic justify any means whatsoever? They say to prevent killings, but what had they just done? Killed off people who had families of their own....

Double amen! These people are the king arseholes of the world.

BUT, when a father- when the sex is consentual- is involved, I feel that the old "You play, you pay", to quote myself, comes into play, and an unborn child should not be killed, for the reasoning of, "Well, he forgot to use a condom", or "We had unprotected sex, but I'm not ready for the responsibility of parenthood"....

Well, that may be, but I feel that is wrong, and a wrong instance for aborting a child.

And to use the excuse "Well, a child is not what fits into my plans right now....I have a life of my own"....

No.

That is when adoption could come into play, or some other alternatives.
Lazzy

I agree 100% with that too. I wouldn't say that I had the right to try to force someone who thought otherwise, not to have an abortion, but I agree personally. Too few people not taking total responsibility for their actions.

And respect? Lazy I'm happy to jaw with you any time man, even if it's something we disagree on. Last thing I want to do is get into a fight with you, yanno?

😀

 

[Lazarus]

Thanks, BJ.....as with Meems, it is nice to be with someone who can carry on a civil and sane discussion, and not have it turn into an argument, which was an impossibility with the women I was with before Meems....

🙄