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Ala. Judge Loses Commandments Case

ShiningIce

3rd Level Green Feather
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Feb 14, 2002
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MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - A Ten Commandments monument in the rotunda of Alabama's judicial building violates the constitution's ban on government promotion of religion, a federal judge ruled Monday.


U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson gave Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who had the 5,300-pound granite monument installed in the state building, 30 days to remove it.


Thompson said that previous court rulings have allowed displays on government property if they have a secular purpose and do not foster "excessive government entanglement with religion." He said the Ten Commandments monument fails this test.


"His fundamental, if not sole, purpose in displaying the monument was non-secular; and the monument's primary effect advances religion," Thompson said.


Moore testified during the trial that the commandments are the moral foundation of American law. He said the monument acknowledges God, but does not force anyone to follow his conservative Christian religious beliefs.


A lawsuit seeking removal of the monument argued that it promoted the judge's faith in violation of the constitution's ban on government establishment of religion.


Moore installed the monument after the building closed on the night of July 31, 2001, without telling any other justices.


"This monument was snuck in during the middle of the night and they can sneak it out just as easily. It's a gross violation of the rights of the citizens of Alabama," said Morris Dees, lead counsel and co-founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center, who urged Moore to remove the monument immediately.


The monument, which features the King James Bible version of the Ten Commandments sitting on top of a granite block, is one of the first things visitors see upon entering the building.


In his ruling, Thompson said he found the monument to be more than just a display of the Ten Commandments and other historical quotations.


"The court is impressed that the monument and its immediate surroundings are, in essence, a consecrated place, a religious sanctuary, within the walls of the courthouse," Thompson wrote.

An appeal was expected. Neither Moore nor his lead attorney, Stephen Melchior, had any immediate comment on the ruling. An assistant to Melchior said they were reserving comment until they had read the opinion.

Moore fought to display a wooden plaque of the commandments on his courtroom wall in Etowah County, before he won election as chief justice in November 2000.

"The basic issue is whether we will still be able to acknowledge God under the First Amendment, or whether we will not be able to acknowledge God," Moore testified.

Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, called the ruling a setback for "Moore's religious crusade."

"It's high time Moore learned that the source of U.S. law is the constitution and not the Bible," Lynn said.

One of Moore's supporters, Alabama Christian Coalition President John Giles, said he believes there may be a backlash against the ruling in Alabama, a Bible Belt state in which Moore won easily two years ago.

"I am afraid the judge's order putting a 30-day limit on removal of the monument will lead to an uprising of citizens protesting removal of that monument," Giles said.
 
I do not think we should change our history and our future by removing our culture (being the ten commandments!). Let them be, if you don't believe them... don't read 'em!!!
 
Good job to the US District Ct.

America is a country for all faiths and beliefs. When the state starts getting the business of favoring one religion over others, we start marching down the path toward theocracy. I wouldn't want to live in a theocracy even if I were Christian. I agree with "live and let live". I just believe our society benefits everyone the most when we don't have religious favoritism.

Rook
 
I agree Blackrook,

But I don't think we are doing anyone justice by removing landmarks and staues put here. That's like removing all religious art from musuems. Most art would disappear!!!
 
I think if the "art" were in a museum, I would agree

ForgottenTcklr said:
I agree Blackrook,

But I don't think we are doing anyone justice by removing landmarks and staues put here. That's like removing all religious art from musuems. Most art would disappear!!!

But not in a state building. I agree that it isn't completely necessary to keep the Judeo-Christian aspects of our history out of public view. We have "in God we trust" on our coins, Congress opens with a prayer, we have "one nation under God" in the pledge (this one I take issue with), nativity scenes on state property at Christmas time, and churches for all faiths enjoy tax exempt status as long as the activity is related to religion. Students of all faiths can pray in public schools without fear of state sanction. In many ways, America is model for religious plurality and tolerance. I think that prayers before football games and the 10 commandments in state buildings is a little to much for me. You need to draw the line somewhere lest we go down the slippery slope to theocracy. Hopefully, they have relocated the monument to a more appropriate place rather than destroyed it. I agree that art is essential and that our heritage Christian and otherwise is important (I am a freethinker myself and treasure the contributions of Mark Twain and Robert Ingersoll tremendously. Reason is underrated relative to faith in my opinion). Anyway, looking for common ground, let's have the monument publically displayed prominently on private property. That won't ruffle my feathers at all. How about yours?

Rook
 
Well,

If it's already there, leave it!

If it's not... don't put it there!

That's my opinion on the matter!
 
Me, I'd have been amused if the judge was told that he could have his Ten Commandments monument if he wanted ... as long as he also installed monuments to the Five Pillars of Islam and the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism next to it. At his own expense, of course.
 
Agree Shem

"Me, I'd have been amused if the judge was told that he could have his Ten Commandments monument if he wanted ... as long as he also installed monuments to the Five Pillars of Islam and the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism next to it. At his
own expense, of course."

Shem

Shem,

Agree. We'd have to have the Humanist Manifestos I and II, & presumably Hindu, B'hai and other faiths represented as well. It's either all or nothing if the state is sponsoring as far as I'm concerned.

Rook
 
keeping the 10 commandments out is anti-Christian

Rook,

I think your position is anti-Christian. Non-christians enjoy the same government services that christians do: libraries, roads, military. So, overall, there is no favoritism as you imply when a christian symbol is put into public view. We simply are acknowledging for the most part widely accepted ethical standards, thou shall not bear false witness, thou shall not kill etc. Surely many non-christian faiths are in general agreement with these ethical principals. Even the "honor thy God" can be viewed in context with a christian majority but applied to worship across religions. I agree with Forgotten. I don't see the harm of leaving the monument where it was.

Kalba
 
Re: keeping the 10 commandments out is anti-Christian

Kalba said:
Rook,

I think your position is anti-Christian. Non-christians enjoy the same government services that christians do: libraries, roads, military. So, overall, there is no favoritism as you imply when a christian symbol is put into public view. We simply are acknowledging for the most part widely accepted ethical standards, thou shall not bear false witness, thou shall not kill etc. Surely many non-christian faiths are in general agreement with these ethical principals. Even the "honor thy God" can be viewed in context with a christian majority but applied to worship across religions. I agree with Forgotten. I don't see the harm of leaving the monument where it was.

Kalba

Kalba,

Suit yourself. I do not consider my position anti-christian. And I stand by it. Shem has the right idea here. If the state presents religious symbols in public, it has a responsibility to be neutral in doing so. You are entitled to your opinion, of course. I very appreciate and support the relgious liberty we have to worship as we choose in America. It's why I take issue with the ideas the might makes right and simply because you are in the majority means anything you want goes. It's not what this country is based on.

Rook
 
Sure,

If you believes in these other relgions want to pay to have monuments for them set up... have at it. But it isn't our expense!
 
I posted this in the jokes thread, but I definately thought that it should surface here too.

It's called... The eleventh Commandment:

Last week a very important meeting took place among God, the Pope and Moses. They were troubled because the President of the United States was behaving in an inappropriate manner and there were many people who saw nothing wrong in what he had done. They decided that the only course of action left was to create an 11th Commandment to get their message across. Now, the problem remained exactly how to word this new commandment so that it matched the other commandments in style and holy inspiration. After great meditation and discussion they concluded: "Thou shalt not comfort thy rod with thy staff."
 
ForgottenTcklr said:
Sure,

If you believes in these other relgions want to pay to have monuments for them set up... have at it. But it isn't our expense!

Presumably the 10 commandments monument was paid for out of general revenues including taxes paid for by taxpayers of all faiths.

Rook
 
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