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America and their allies

Haltickling

2nd Level Green Feather
Joined
Apr 3, 2001
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This is a comment on the current situation from the International Herald Tribune (3/8/03), written by Nicholas D. Kristof (NYT). I thought it might interest you. Please refrain from killing ME because of it, I didn't write it.

So many losses before the first shot has been fired

Collateral damage

NEW YORK Last week a member of the Canadian Parliament for the governing party, Carolyn Parrish, was caught on television declaring: "Damn Americans. I hate those bastards."
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Then the Toronto Globe and Mail newspaper conducted a (hopelessly unscientific) poll on its Web site, asking Canadians whether they agreed that "Americans are behaving like 'bastards.'" The returns aren't good: As of Thursday, 51 percent were saying yes.
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When even the Canadians, normally drearily polite, get colorfully steamed at Americans, the rest of the world must be apopleptic. After all, the latest invective comes on top of the prime minister's spokesman calling President George W. Bush a "moron" last autumn.
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Canada's incivility is a reminder that the United States and its allies are slugging one another to death while Iraq watches from the sidelines. If, as Bush suggested in a press conference Thursday night, the United States may lose a vote in the United Nations and then promptly go to war anyway, the internecine warfare within the West will grow far worse.
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The U.S. debate on the antipathy toward America has been misleading, I think, in its focus on France. (There's now an American bumper sticker: "Iraq Now, France Next.") It's not just the prickly Gauls who are taking potshots at us - it's even America's buddies, like the Canadians and the Irish.
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In a survey, The Sunday Independent newspaper of Ireland polled Dublin residents about whom they feared most, Saddam Hussein or George Bush. The result: 39 percent picked Saddam; 60 percent, Bush. Even in Britain, a poll by The Sunday Times found that equal numbers called Saddam and Bush the "greatest threat to world peace."
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So let's take stock of how America's invasion of Iraq is going. The Western alliance is ferociously strained, NATO is paralyzed, America is resented by millions, the United Nations is in crisis, U.S. pals like Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain are being skewered at home, North Korea has exploited America's distraction to crank up plutonium production, oil prices have surged, and the world financial markets have sagged.
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And the war hasn't even begun yet.
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Of course, one school of thought holds it doesn't much matter that the United States is perceived as the world's newest Libya. If the Canadians don't like Americans, we can always exercise the military option and push our border up to 54-40.
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But global attitudes do matter. Before the first Gulf War, Secretary of State James Baker made three visits to Turkey. This time around, Secretary of State Colin Powell hasn't visited once. So it's not surprising that Turkey refused to accept U.S. troops, impairing American plans for a northern offensive.
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Bush is now making great progress in the war against Al Qaeda. And that's happening because Bush was willing to work with the Pakistani leaders; what made the difference was not just military power, but also diplomacy.
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Of course, the United States may have a solid plan, as Jay Leno said: "Bush may be the smartest military president in history. First he gets Iraq to destroy all of their own weapons. Then he declares war."
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The worry is that America is already taking such losses, in terms of its alliances, that one wonders what will happen when the hard part begins - the day after Saddam has toppled, when we may see Shiites slaughtering Sunnis in southern Iraq; thousands of armed Iraqi exiles pouring in from Iran; Turks and Kurds fighting over the Kirkuk oil wells in northern Iraq; Iraqi military officers trying to peddle anthrax and VX gas; and radical Islamists trying to take control of nuclear-armed Pakistan.
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As one savvy official observed, occupying Baghdad comes at an "unpardonable expense in terms of money, lives lost and ruined regional relationships." Another expert put it this way: "We should not march into Baghdad. To occupy Iraq would instantly shatter our coalition, turning the whole Arab world against us, and make a broken tyrant into a latter-day Arab hero … assigning young soldiers to a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerrilla war. It could only plunge that part of the world into even greater instability."
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Those comments may overemphasize the risks, but they are from top-notch analysts whose judgments I respect. The first was made by Colin Powell in a Foreign Affairs essay in 1992; the second is in "A World Transformed," a 1998 book by the first President Bush.
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E-mail: [email protected]
 
Re: Who Cares???

Neutron said:
The world is an American Colony.
It's true if you replace "The world" with "America" and "American" with "former British".
 
9/11

Screw Europe! After 9/11 all the scumbags of the world are open season! Today Iraq and then that little bastard in North Korea. Thank God for George Bush Jr.!
 
i don`t think it`s the heavens you should be looking at when you thank someone for giving the world bush!!🙁
 
A bit more info...

Ms Parrish is the rep of a district west of Toronto, comprised of a very large Muslim population. She obviously wants to be reelected.

The Toronto Globe and Mail is one of 4 Toronto daily papers, and not exactly the cream of the crop......

People that fear Bush more than Saddam are ill informed indeed. Listen and read the stories of those who have fled/escaped from Iraq, and then judge the actions from eyewitness reports.

The critical issue here doesn't really revolve around whether or not the United States can defeat Iraq, that was easily settled over a decade ago, and the military strengths of the 2 nations are even farther apart at this time. The issue of removing a regime that has threatened harm to us before it has a chance to follow through on its own statements/intentions is at the core of the conflict. Other nations not being "steamed" doesn't concern our desire for security, and perhaps if a few thousand of their citizens get killed while going to work in a buidling, their "view" will shift just a smidge...

Blaming the USA for North Koreas newly aggressive stance is quite a hoot...love to hear the logic laid out for that in more detail.

And finally, how could Iraqi military officers be selling anthrax and VX gas, when they have stated so strongly that "it doesn't exist"? Guess we all know it does, but not everyone wants to deal with it.

Taking Baghdad will be difficult...but these same analysts assured the world that the USA couldn't possibly succeed in Afghanistan since Russia, with much shorter supply lines, had no luck there. I don't think they're any smarter this time around.

That being said, my hopes are still that Saddam will step down when faced with resolve and strength. Then again, he IS insane...

:sowrong: Q
 
there`s no doubt about saddam being a pure evil s.o.b....i agree 100% that he needs moving out,the problem in a lot of peoples minds is how many victims of his regime,his own people in iraq aren`t exactly fans of his,will be killed.If he can be targetted and removed,great,blanket bombing his citizens into submission seems a kinda heavy handed way of going about things.Plus,bearing in mind where he got his "weapons of mass destruction" from,what`s the chances of a "friendly" despot being installed in his place,saddam`s always been an evil dictator,he`s got about 30 years of savagery under his belt,the only difference now is he`s not dancing to our tune.
 
We spend all this time thinking about Saddam Husein and his potential threat to the U.S. -- and I do this as much as anyone as it is very important. But sometimes I find myself thinking about all those people, in his own country, who live in terror of him. The ones who have to worry about being tortured or raped or whatever. I'm not saying that that alone justifies a war or doesn't. By this point, I'm as confused about the situation as anyone. But I'm just saying that if we could help those people, with as few innocent casualties as possible, then maybe it would be worth it. Just food for thought.
 
Ice...

You debate on pure emotion. We've discussed this before. You'll be down to "I'm rubber and you're glue" soon. Saddam has literally annihilated entire villages and their inhabitants. Read up on what happened to the village where an unsuccesful assasination attempt took place. There were a few who escaped and survived and witnessed the mayhem. Insanity indeed. You obviously have issues with President Bush and his policies. Why not delineate them instead of generalizing? Is he "insane" because he's Republican? Because he disagrees with your world view? You don't like the way he raises his daughters/runs the country/treats his wife....? Has he razed any towns? Gassed a few cities in the US? Don't just toss statements out, give them some context. It makes discussion a 2 way street rather than a "drive by shooting'. Q
 
You want facts ??? Here are your facts. State of Texas, under the leadership of Governor George
W. Bush, is ranked:

50th in spending for teachers' salaries
49th in spending on the environment
48th in per-capita funding for public health
47th in delivery of social services
42nd in child-support collections
41st in per-capita spending on public education and ...









5th in percentage of population living in poverty
1st in air and water pollution
1st in percentage of poor working parents without insurance
1st in percentage of children without health insurance
1st in executions (average 1 every 2 weeks for Bush's 5 years as Governor)












 
Oh well

the rest of the world is jealous, and canada sucks anyway...go back to your igloos!! 😀 I'll be so glad after the war is over, Saddam is dead, and all the hippie activists will go cuddle and celebrate. Then I won't have to hear people whine about something they don't have the power to change! ^^
 
Check your facts again, Ice. We Alabamians have Texas beat in most of those categories, with the exception of executions - but we're doing our best to catch up.

Hal, I'm familiar with Nicholas Kristof. He's one of the "usual suspects" - an East Coast Lefty, writing for the New York Times which is understood by everyone to have a left-of-center bias. This piece is about typical.

We should worry less about what our enemies might do to us, and instead ensure that they have cause to fear what we will do to them. And then do it.

We still have a few solid allies - the UK, Australia, others who are capable only of indirect support such as Spain and Poland. But we did most of the heavy lifting that won the Cold War. If necessary, we'll win the war against Islamist extremism the same way.

Strelnikov
 
Wars are won by killing the most motivated of your enemies. The rest will eventually come around. The following article was written in the context of the Afghanistan operation, but the overall logic is still valid.

Strelnikov

**********

Washington Post: December 27, 2001
General Sherman's Advice
By George F. Will

"I fear the world will jump to the wrong conclusion that because I am in Atlanta the work is done. Far from it. We must kill three hundred thousand I have told you of so often, and the further they run the harder for us to get them."
--Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, 1864

America's Civil War provides many analogies by which we measure -- and sometimes misunderstand -- today's military developments, and American ways of waging war.

Because facets of the Afghanistan operations -- real-time intelligence, stealthy aircraft, precision munitions -- are so modern, we miss the fact that the war requires an American tradition of warmaking that has a 19th-century pedigree. And the bloody uprisings by fanatical Taliban and al Qaeda prisoners underscore the pertinence of Sherman's understanding of how to define victory over an intensely motivated enemy.

When military operations in Afghanistan began, just four weeks after Sept. 11 and three weeks after Gen. Tommy Franks was told to begin planning attacks, some critics were quick to say the operations did not begin quickly enough. Then they said the tempo of operations was too torpid. Critics compared Franks -- and Colin Powell, ever mindful of allies' sensibilities -- to Gen. George McClellan. Those were fighting words, because McClellan was a reluctant fighter.

One of President Lincoln's commanders, McClellan was notoriously reluctant to close with Confederate forces, the strength of which he consistently overestimated. This drove Lincoln to distraction, and to sarcasm about hoping to "borrow" the Army if McClellan was not using it.

Sherman, an energetic user of the Army, believed its principal use against the Confederacy was not to occupy territory but to destroy enemy personnel. His reason for believing this has contemporary resonance during a war against fanatics, many of whom come from the privileged strata of corrupt and exploitative societies.

Long before secession, Sherman despised the South for its caste and class systems. In 1843, when stationed in South Carolina, he wrote: "This state, their aristocracy . . . their patriarchal chivalry and glory -- all trash. No people in America are so poor in reality, no people so poorly provided with the comforts of life."

So why did the Confederate army, composed mostly of poor whites, fight for a social system beneficial only to a tiny landed minority? Partly because of the elan of its martial elite, those whom Sherman called "young bloods" who were "brave, fine riders, bold to rashness and dangerous in every sense."

Sherman, writes professor Victor Davis Hanson in his book "The Soul of Battle," considered the Confederacy "a motley conglomeration of distrustful factions." Sherman thought the really dangerous faction -- dangerous during the war, and potentially afterward -- consisted of what Hanson calls "young zealots, men between 18 and 40 who often formed the cavalry of the South and were led by rabid knights like Nathan Bedford Forrest, Joseph Wheeler and Jeb Stuart. These fanatics . . . were the children of the wealthy, excellent horsemen, full of youthful vigor and insolence."

The South, although militarily weak, "fielded," Hanson says, "individual warriors who were among the most gallant and deadly in the entire history of warfare." Hence what Sherman called "the awful fact": Victory required "that the present class of men who rule the South must be killed outright."

Donald Rumsfeld says his preference is for al Qaeda fighters to surrender rather than fight to the death: "It ends it faster. It's less expensive." Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, says: "This is not a war of extermination." Such statements are perhaps obligatory and even sincere.

However, is surrender really less expensive in the long run? It is a reasonable surmise that a reformed terrorist is a very rare terrorist, and that the rate of recidivism will be high among terrorists who are forced to surrender but continue to believe they are doing God's will when they commit mass murder of infidels. So, as far as is consistent with the rules of war and the husbanding of the lives of U.S. military personnel, U.S. strategy should maximize fatalities among the enemy, rather than expedite the quickest possible cessation of hostilities.

Many Americans will vehemently reject any analogy between Confederate and al Qaeda elites. But Sherman might have felt vindicated by a postwar letter from one former Confederate general to another, D. H. Hill to Jubal Early:

"Why has the South become so toadyish & sycophantic? I think it is because the best and noblest were killed off during the war."
 
America's Military

Least we forget... The reason we have free speech and the reason Europe has free speech = America's Military. AND eventually we will bring free speech and freedom to the Islamic countries of the middle east... Yet Babes wrapped in four blankets in 99 degree heat are real attractive!
 
Hopes...

ShiningIce said:




No we wont. This isnt a type of war we can win.

Damn sure hope you're wrong. Btw, so far all you've demonstrated is that Bush wasn't much of a governor....quite a ways from insane, although since he's IN politics, I'll give you points towards mental instability right there...lol.

Interesting article Strel. Intimidation has its place, no doubt. I'm just hoping it doesn't come at too high a price for the noncombatants. Wars sure were easier when everyone wore a uniform.....:sowrong: Q
 
Yeah and if he cant even manage one state well how the hell is he supposed to run a whole nation??
 
Transference...

Some lousy governors have been decent presidents, and some that were good sucked at a higher level. You can't predict it that easily. The resources of the state, as well as the actions of your predecessor have a lot to do with success in both levels of politics. I didn't think much of Arkansas' records on economics, but the country prospered in that area under Clinton. Coincidence? Or was the groundwork for that period laid by previous administrations policies and reaped by Clinton? I'd have to research Texas policies/decisions/budgets and the impact of at least the former officeholder to assess Bushs competence.

Normally, a politician is only as good as his/her support staff....it's a team effort all the way down to the hair stylist.

And, imo, Bush is a better wartime president than Gore would have been, although predicting the actions of people once they're sitting in the Oval Office has always been tough. Many times the events make the man, and I think John F.Kennedys all too short presidency reflected how a politician can grow under the incredible pressure brought to bear on them. Is Bush coal, or a diamond? Too soon to tell, Sir Ice...way too soon. That's the advantage of being old (okay, just about the ONLY one)...you learn not to rush to judgement and have to eat too many hasty words. I'm still chewing on not appreciating Muhammed Ali enough when I was young and foolish...sigh. Q
 
A new thread...

You'll need another thread for that one bud...we're close to hijacking this one as it is...lol. Hey, wish you were right, but it's become apparent if you study history that at times a seemingly small conflict has either led us into total world war, or has prevented what appeared to be imminent escalation and defused a situation. If only we could tell what the subsequent events and reactions of this conflict would bring, we'd all know if it was necessary. Hindsight was always my favorite superpower, but apparently my wife has sole custody of that one.

Right now we need to deal with the events that are here, not wish for other ones. This topic was about our allies reluctance to challenge Saddam and some of their possible motivations, both moral and financial. Frances reasons are suspect, in particular, in that area. All the yelling about American interest in oil has masked their very real desire to maintain the staus quo, which is decidely to their advantage in regards to Iraqi oil......

No more war is the goal...gotta agree there. But, if we go, I'll once again volunteer my creaky carcass for computer/communications duty or whatever else I can do to assist our troops and speed their safe return. They tend to put us old guys to work doing that nasty administrative routine stuff that isn't too exciting, but greases the wheels of supply. Can't fight wars without mountains of paperwork and redundant routines...... 🙄 Q
 
To Shakespeare, regarding who Europe must thank for her freedoms: 15 million dead Russians and a harsh, harsh Winter for the Furher and his Barbarosa Army. That and a stalwart Britain, some decent RAF fighter pilots, and the Polish, who were seminal in helping us crack a couple of codes...

To Shining Ice: I'm with you on your thoughts on Bush, he's got a bigger agenda, more weapons and less cunning than Saddam, which will only spell trouble for the world at large. Iraq is the easy target, and contrary to popular belief ceased to be of any threat to America after the Gulf War. It's being hit to appease those hawks out there who want retribution with extreme prejeduce without the actual risk of losing there kids, understandable in a sense really. They've lost too many already in senseless acts of violence.

I don't care how evil Saddam is, right now I'd be looking at North Korea and wondering when the next Pearl Harbour is going to occur.
 
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