Any Lord of the Rings/Tolkien fans?

[gallicus]

Heh, as I said after looking at the Bond thread, I feel like making a thread on LOTR. Are there any other avid fans other than myself here? If there are enough, I was thinking of running a LOTR/Silmarillion trivia contest. Maybe there are true guru's among us. 🙂

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'm a fan.

I haven't purchased any of the movies because I'm waiting for Jackson's final release which so far is being called the "Ultimate Edition" which includes even more extras, deleted scenes and bonus material than the extended trilogy boxset that was recently released does.

I almost bought the current extended trilogy recently until I heard he was going to do one more to make for a final, absolute, and undisputed Lord Of The Rings Motion Picture Trilogy.

Said trilogy will be out later this year. Its well worth the wait.

As for the novel itself, I have not read it unfortunately. I have friends that have however, and I really want to read the Silmarillion before I read anything else.

I already know alot of the true secrets that that book reveals, but its not the same hearing it from others as it is reading it yourself. 🙂

 

[nessonite1]

You havent gotten ANY of the movies?? Fiend!
I bought all of the DVDs when they were released cause I couldnt wait, and then bought the extended versions on top of those. 😛 So there's going to be an ULTIMATE edition? LOL, I'll make space on the shelf....

and yes, there are a LOT of LOTR fans on here.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yeah, I tend to wait a while when buying trilogies. Its the same with anime. You just know they're going to release it in "perfect" boxset sooner or later. They offer you these incomplete trilogies to hold you over until the final release.

It could be said that a true fan would collect everything (at least thats what they want you to think so you'll spend more money), even if it meant buying the same thing twice just because it was a different version (I've been guilty of this a couple of times with different things) but I imagine most people don't have the clams to buy everything, but rather buy what they think they'll need. In the case of movies, I'd imagine its more affordable.

Either way, its not a good feeling to know you've been duped and theres something better than what you have now. Alot of people seem to be rather angry that Jackson is doing this again. People thought the last trilogy set was the LAST one and thats the only reason they bought it, and now Jackson comes up with this newer, better one thats going to come out later.

I wonder what the pricetag will be.

It would have made me angry if I had bought anything, but as I said, I haven't, and I sure am glad for it. Sure glad.

 

[nessonite1]

LOL I certainly don't have the clams for it...but we have gone without groceries to buy a dvd we REALLY wanted. 😛 I wouldn't call myself a true collector though...just impatient. And I DO hope you have at least gotten someone to loan you the dvds for a while, andif not you should. Cause the special features on them are nothing short of kick ASS. 😀

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I've already seen the movies, and seeing the extra scenes can wait really. I'll have all thats current and all that will be when the Ultimate Edition hits stores. 😀

EDIT: Plus, I already know about some scenes, even though I haven't seen them. The scourging of the shire for example.

 

[nessonite1]

ohhh but the extra scenes really do add something. Well...they add about an hour actually. They really must be seen...you are denying yourself. 😀

 

[alchemy1]

I'm a huge LOTR fan! The Hobbit is cool too btw. Some of my prize collectable pieces are: The 5 book Easton Press Tolkien set (The Hobbit, LOTR, and The Silmarillion), The 3 book Folio Society LOTR set, The illustrated editions of Rings and The Hobbit, The Red and Green Leather bound Rings and Hobbit books, my Noble Collection replica of the one ring, and of course, my movie swords (Glamdring, Sting, and *Newly purchased* Anduril). Yeah...I own all 3 box sets of the movies as well. Man o man...I try not to think of the money I've spent on all that.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ Ness- I've been very patient with this. Waiting a few more months or so really doesn't matter at this point since I'm going to get all of that material and then some sooner or later. LOL ^^

We all are going to get it. Provided its not ridiculously priced.

I was joking about this with others. Heres what I said-

"Yes, I've just confirmed it. I saw it on the news just now. Jackson is going to call it the "Ultimate Trilogy", at least for now.

Geez, I wonder if they'll include those three extra special deleted scenes. You know, the ones with Frodo peeing in a Shire pond, Gollum picking his boogers and then eating them, and Sauron having a nervous breakdown while on his tower and throwing a temper tantrum like a little baby whilst talking to himself and being very paranoid about it. "Oh my gawd, oh my gawd, oh my gawd! What am I going to do! The people of Middle Earth are coming to get me! Somebody! HELP! HELP! You down there, help me! For the love of god help me!"

"Or the one where they (Frodo and Sam) begin to hallucinate and see the other as a beautiful female hobbit and make passes at eachother due to malnurishment and exhaustion."

 

[gallicus]

Heh, I'm with ness on this one. I've got all the DVD's thus far. I especially like the half hour documentaries on Tolkien himself. He has quite an interesting (and somtimes sad) history and I've learned a few things as to why he wrote what and how he did.

As to Vlad... shame on you. 😛 You haven't even read the books yet? Reading the Silmarillion isn't quite necessary to understand LOTR. It's a very nice book, but it might even be advisable to read LOTR first. LOTR is big, but the Silmarillion cosmology is huge. I think it would be more enjoyable to have some sort of background in it first. Heh, it's funny how that works. Oh, and you could always read the Hobbit before LOTR as well. Of course, there are some references in the Hobbit that actually lead back to the Silmarillion as well. Glamdring (Gandalf's sword), for instance.

 

[gallicus]

I'm a huge LOTR fan! The Hobbit is cool too btw. Some of my prize collectable pieces are: The 5 book Easton Press Tolkien set (The Hobbit, LOTR, and The Silmarillion), The 3 book Folio Society LOTR set, The illustrated editions of Rings and The Hobbit, The Red and Green Leather bound Rings and Hobbit books, my Noble Collection replica of the one ring, and of course, my movie swords (Glamdring, Sting, and *Newly purchased* Anduril). Yeah...I own all 3 box sets of the movies as well. Man o man...I try not to think of the money I've spent on all that.

Heh, that's quite a lot to spend. I've never been interested in the relics really. Just the books, and now, the movies. I have to commend Peter Jackson greatly. I never expected LOTR could be done as well as it was.

 

[gallicus]

Well, let's start the ball rolling with a little fun theory debate. Here's the question..

Do you think Frodo really had it in him to claim the One Ring as his own? I don't mean mearly claim, which he pretty much did when he could not destroy the Ring, but I mean truly claim it, as in delcare himself Dark Lord. We can go by book or movie version. The movie was for the most part accurate to the book. What do you think the reprocussions would have been had he declared himself or not. Assume Gollum wasn't there, but Sam was.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Nothing to be ashamed of. 😛

 

[nessonite1]

As to Vlad... shame on you. 😛 You haven't even read the books yet?

I haven't either. 😛
Having a husband who is big into LOTR I was able to hear a lot of things from him about what's in the books vs. the movies but I haven't had the time to sit and read them myself, though we own several different versions. I read about halfway through the Hobbit before life intruded...and even that took me about a month. 🙁

Do you think Frodo really had it in him to claim the One Ring as his own? I don't mean mearly claim, which he pretty much did when he could not destroy the Ring, but I mean truly claim it, as in delcare himself Dark Lord.

Taking what I said above into consideration, no I don't think so. I think he would have gotten into a brawl with Gollum and lost horribly.
Assuming Gollum was out of the way and Sam wasn't there to try to save him I think Frodo would have shriveled up and turned into a little beasty like Gollum did.
And anyway...could Middle Earth really take a Dark Lord under 4' tall with fuzzy little feet seriously?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

To answer the question, we must remember that the One Ring basically IS Sauron, in a sense. The ring has no interest in Frodo or anyone else thats had it or would ever come to have it. The Ring has but one purpose- to return itself to it's master.

Coincidentally, Sauron WANTED Frodo to head to Mt. Doom. Why Frodo was going there was for a different reason of course, but if he didn't have to go to Mordor the Ring would have forced him to go eventually and return it to Sauron's tower.

With the Ring back, Sauron not only gets back the great portion of his powers that he lost, but he will once again be capable of having physical form, or at least corpreal form.

Whether it was Frodo or someone else, the Ring would have been returned to Sauron, whether the way he wanted or in defiance of his conquest and in the purpose of destroying it.

The movies seem to potray Lord Sauron as this unknowing character, who while very powerful still, seems oblivious to what is going on, those things he cannot see. I think Sauron knew the Ring would be returned. The manner in which it would be was perhaps something he could not forsee.

He probably assumed that anyone who had it that long will have overtaken by his power and would have returned the Ring to him personally.

But as classic plot devices would have it, good always triumphs over impossible odds, and things like love, compassion, and life win over the will of even the darkest evils.

 

[alchemy1]

To answer the question, we must remember that the One Ring basically IS Sauron, in a sense. The ring has no interest in Frodo or anyone else thats had it or would ever come to have it. The Ring has but one purpose- to return itself to it's master.

Coincidentally, Sauron WANTED Frodo to head to Mt. Doom. Why Frodo was going there was for a different reason of course, but if he didn't have to go to Mordor the Ring would have forced him to go eventually and return it to Sauron's tower.

With the Ring back, Sauron not only gets back the great portion of his powers that he lost, but he will once again be capable of having physical form, or at least corpreal form.

Whether it was Frodo or someone else, the Ring would have been returned to Sauron, whether the way he wanted or in defiance of his conquest and in the purpose of destroying it.

The movies seem to potray Lord Sauron as this unknowing character, who while very powerful still, seems oblivious to what is going on, those things he cannot see. I think Sauron knew the Ring would be returned. The manner in which it would be was perhaps something he could not forsee.

He probably assumed that anyone who had it that long will have overtaken by his power and would have returned the Ring to him personally.

But as classic plot devices would have it, good always triumphs over impossible odds, and things like love, compassion, and life win over the will of even the darkest evils.

Hmm. Ok, sure Sauron wanted Frodo to go to mount Doom, but he did not expect him to actually do it. That's not the way the ring works. Look at Gollum for instance. He kept the ring for 500 years and never ventured anywhere near Mordor. The ring is not Sauron, but Sauron's essence. In order to not only increase his power, but to dominate the other lesser rings that he had given to the elves, dwarves and men, he created the One Ring...and into it he poured his malice, his cruelty, and his will to dominate all life. Anyone wearing it does not make a b-line for Mordor, rather they are corrupted by it's evil essence. This corruption time varies depending upon the heart and inner strength of the person.
Also, since the ring has almost limitless evil power, it acts as a sort of a beacon to the servants of Sauron.
It kinda works something like this:

1. Person finds ring
2. Person realises that ring is magic and keeps it
3. Person wears ring
4. Over time ring corrupts person's spirit (therefore evil is spread)
5. Evil doers and servants of Sauron are attracted to the source of evil
6. The ring betrays the person and finds it's way into the hands of the evil doers
7. The ring is taken back to Mordor

Also, The main thing that blinds Sauron (and causes his eventual destruction) is his assumption that no one could possibly want to destroy the ring. For example, Sauron misiterprets eveything he sees in the seeing stone. When he sees Pipin, Sauron assumes that Pipin has the ring. When he sees Aragorn, he then assumes that the ring has passed to him and that Aragorn will thry to use it as a weapon against him. Because of his own love/lust for the ring, and because of it's potency, the thought that someone would WANT to destroy it does not even enter his blackest dreams.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yes, I already know that, its obvious in the movies.

When I said Sauron was the ring, I didn't mean it literally of course.

As for when and how the Ring would return wasn't such a trivial matter to him. It was an eventuality. Whether it was because the bearer thought they could defeat him through will power and spirit, or whether they were sent or willingly went to destroy the Ring, or passed the test and claimed the evil power as their own, or Sauron dominated them and he forced them to return, the point I was trying to make is that indeed the bearer would have returned to Mordor.

It sure took a long time, but the Ring was returned, in a manner, and it's bearer was dominated. And if not for Gollum and Sam, we have no way of knowing what would have happened.

If indeed a bearer becomes the new dark lord, theres no other place in Middle Earth for them. They'll most likely take up residence in Mordor, the way Sauron did. This new lord would have to consolidate their new power somehow, it doesn't just happen. Frodo is not a necromancer, he'd have alot of things to learn, even if Sauron's collective pool of energy and intellegence will have given him insight.

Finally, and most importantly. Theres another way to look at this entirely:

If the Ring bearer claims the power as their own, they are eventually possessed by Sauron (again, not in the literal sense) because they have allowed the dark energy to consume them.

And if Sauron possesses this person, in a sense, they BECOME his physical body. Yes, they are a completely different individual on their own, but being that they are corrupted and controlled by the Ring, its really Sauron that is in control.

So one could say Sauron would become the bearer of the Ring once again, whether the Ring was returned to him, and he personally wears it, or someone else does, and he is their proxy and they are his puppet.

Unless the new lord destroys Sauron somehow, which I do not know any other way to do than destroying the Ring itself, then Sauron will live for time immemorial.

And eventually the new lord will be defeated somehow the way Sauron was and some other poor soul will get the Ring and the cycle will begin a new and Sauron will have yet another chance to regain his power.

If you look at it, Sauron is in a most fortunate situation, even though he seems restricted to the tower he resides in.

Frodo did fall to the Ring. So it must be fate that Sam and Gollum were there.

 

[nessonite1]

To answer the question, we must remember that the One Ring basically IS Sauron, in a sense. The ring has no interest in Frodo or anyone else

I never thought of that. Good point.

Look at Gollum for instance. He kept the ring for 500 years and never ventured anywhere near Mordor.

I don't think that's true. He seemed to know the whole place inside and out...I doubt that came from his relatively limited time spent being Smeagol (sp?).

 

[Duke Diablo]

I've read all the books twice before the film was even made, and intend to do so again when I have time. Peter Jackson did a great job with the movies, but I like the books better. They are much deeper, and offer us the opportunity to imagine, to see things as our imagination creates it. I have downloaded some LOTR pics from the net, and have always since then imagined it in drawn version(not exactly as shown there, but similar). Also, there are certain events in the books that were not in the movies(like Tom Bombadil). I've also seen a LOTR cartoon.
I read all the Tolkien's books, icluding non-LOTR-or-Hobit-or-Silmarilion ones(like Roverandom). Tolkien is my favourite fantasy writer(although there are other good fantasy writers, like Guy Gavriel Kay, or George R. R. Martin), and I truly admire his work.

As fer Frodo: I think that, if Gollum wasn't there, Frodo would be consumed by the Ring. But, not all would be lost, for Sam would be there to stop him. He would have found heart, just as he had found courage when he killed Shelob(if I'm not mistaken, that's what happens in the book).

 

[nessonite1]

Frodo would be consumed by the Ring. But, not all would be lost, for Sam would be there to stop him. He would have found heart, just as he had found courage when he killed Shelob

Could he have though? I don't know if Sam had the strength to be a match for a ring-obsessed (and invisible) Frodo. He'd never be able to pry it off of his finger. I don't think he would have been able to, even if he could physically, throw his friend into the pit...*ponders*

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Yes, yes, I'm glad we're getting to this point that I was hinting at before, the point of what would have happened if Gollum hadn't stopped Frodo. While Frodo is just a hobbit, Ness brings up a very valid point that he'd be more than a match for Sam and would probably kill him, the way Smeagol killed his friend and took the Ring.

Although one could say that Frodo is too weakened from bearing the Ring that he may have been easy pickings. Sam would have been able to bear the Ring for a time, but it eventually would have overtaken him too, and being that they are in the very place of the Ring's creation and the magical energies which created it are just a mile or so away (Sauron's tower), perhaps the speed at which the Ring consumes a person would have been much faster.

Sam had already held the Ring. So without a doubt the temptation or even mere thought of taking it from a weakened Frodo may have crossed his mind.

Ultimately my question is what happens when someone accepts the fate of the Ring. Do they become Sauron's puppet and become his champion and thus do his work for him, or do they now have the power to destroy Sauron?

But Sauron's very life is tied to the Ring. Even if his tower was destroyed, the "eye" would disappear, but he would exist in the limbo of the Ring. Sauron is immortal in a sense and his only true weakness then, is the destruction of the Ring itself. The bearer of the Ring would not want to destroy it, and if the bearer was Frodo or Sam or Gollum remember one thing- they are simple-minded, ignorant, folks.

They are definitely no Sauron of Mordor. He was/is a great necromancer and had untold powers that the peoples of Middle Earth never really fully grasped or could gauge until they actually fought him, which they did. Remember, he was only narrowly defeated.

A hobbit or a mutated hobbit (Smeagol) would not make ideal dark lords on their own. So I'm betting that they'd be in league with Sauron like Saraumon was. In the end, Sauron would be calling the shots. Its his power thats in the Ring, its his magic, and its his ability to create an army and dominate a people.

I think Frodo or whomever had the Ring in the end not only would not have destroyed it, but would have returned it to Sauron, knowing their own knowledge and wisdom would not be enough to create any kind of power. Yes, they do possess the power, but they lack the qualities to harness and control it.

It would eventually turn Frodo or Sam into another Gollum, living a solitary life in the dark shadows of Mordor.

I'm not selling short (no pun intended) the hobbit race. But because of their innocent and simple lives they do not make good candidates to be the next dark lord. It would have to be a man, an elf, or a dwarf or any other capable race with access to the resources and magic needed to launch a campaign against the world.

 

[gallicus]

**Potential Spoiler Warning**

Well, I'm happy I got so many replies to the question. There are just too many posts to do quotes from, so I'll try to address the arguments as I come to them.

It seems I am in agreement with nessonite. The ring had indeed corrupted Frodo at the end but I don't think Frodo was truly aware of the ring's power. He most likely would have turned out like Gollum, but I'm sure the Nazgul would have got him almost instantly after he put on the ring if Gollum wasn't there. Sam I'm sure would have tried to help Frodo, but I think he was beyond even that. I don't think Frodo would have killed Sam though... Smeagol, when he killed Deagol, showed that he didn't have much of an ethic to begin with, but Frodo throughout the books/movies showed loyalty to Sam.. even with the ring getting "heavy" on him. Frodo probobly would have just walked by Sam.

As to the ring "being" Sauron, that's not quite true. Sauron, when he had the 19 rings forged, created the One Ring completely on his own, and vested his own power into it in order to control the other 19. So while in a sense the ring is Sauron, it is only his power in it, not his actual spirit. He however does have a link with it though, and while it still exists, he can maintain a physical form (the Eye). He can also maintain some power over the Nazgul (who were severely weakened when Sauron was defeated -- they were far, far stronger in the Second Age, especially the Witch King).

But you are right in that he expected the ring to return to him one way or the other. Idealy it would be the Nazgul to return it, but he figured anyone with the ring would challenge him. His reasoning for this is the fact that he figured that anyone who had the ring knew of its power. This is one of the main reasons Gandalf sent Frodo. Gandalf (as he said) knew he would not be able to withstand the corruption. Frodo had a better chance because he knew he himself knew he had an item of power, but didn't know its power (other than going invisible).

Someone with knowledge of the ring could challenge Sauron himself and become the next Dark Lord. This would effectively destroy Sauron as much as if it were thrown into Mt. Doom. Of course the person who challenged (and won) would be corrupted, but they would *not* be Sauron. They would have Sauron's Maia power, but without his influence. They would also control the Nazgul and Barad-dur - and the orcs would quickly follow the new Lord of the Ring, whoever it may be. As was said by Alchemy, and it is said in the books as well, Sauron doesn't think they would give the ring to a Hobbit to take to Mt. Doom to destroy it. He did however suspect it. I'm sure he had to at least do that. If it wasn't for Aragorn using the Palantir before heading to Gondor (this is book version), I'm sure Sauron would have gotten the ring. Sauron assumed Aragon had the ring, and thus his thought that the ring was already in Mordor (or coming to Mordor) was gone.

"They are definitely no Sauron of Mordor. He was/is a great necromancer and had untold powers that the peoples of Middle Earth never really fully grasped or could gauge until they actually fought him, which they did. Remember, he was only narrowly defeated."

Not quite true. The elves definately knew of his power. So did the 3 wizards mentioned in the book. I'm sure anybody who was anybody knew of Sauron's power, as they most likely knew of his origins. Sauron was lieutenant to Melkor (who dwarfs Sauron in power -- even with the Ring) in the First Age of Middle-Earth. All the elves in Middle-Earth are aware of this since they were either in Middle-Earth to begin with (the Sindar - Legolas is one) or followed Feanor to help reclaim the Silmarils (the Noldar - Galadriel is one). They also fought in the wars against both Melkor in the First Age, and Sauron in the Second. They knew Sauron at the height of his power.

Oh, and Saruman definately wanted the ring to become the next Dark Lord. He would not have returned the ring to Sauron. This is why Sauron was so afraid when Merry looked into the Palantir. Sauron thought he had the Ring, which meant in turn that Saruman had the ring. Sauron knew Saruman would betray him if he ever got the ring and thus sent the Nazgul asap to retrieve it. By the time the Nazgul got there though, the Ents had already destroyed the area surrounding Orthanc. It was then that Sauron also found out that infact, Saruman did not have the ring and assumed the hobbit escaped to Gondor with Gandalf, who was in turn going to give it to Aragorn.

Heh, whoa, I sure deviated from the question. Well, long story short, I as I said earlier, I don't believe Frodo had the power or knowledge to challenge Sauron, and the Ring would have been reclaimed had Gollum not been there.

What after that? Well, Sauron would have reformed, regained his power, renewed the Nazgul and trounce what was left of resistance on Middle-Earth. The elves would have sailed away and Sauron would rule Middle-Earth. For how long.. I don't know. Probobly until the Last Battle... which was never really finished by Tolkien. The gist of it is Melkor returns from Exile and renews Sauron and the fallen Balrogs and recreates all his old armies of dragons and orcs and then a huge Battle Royale ensues. Of couse, none of this is official, only speculation.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Very good points. I am well aware of alot of these hidden details and "would haves" but I didn't want to discuss them and risk spoiling the reading of the books.

 

[alchemy1]

I don't think that's true. He seemed to know the whole place inside and out...I doubt that came from his relatively limited time spent being Smeagol (sp?).

You're forgeting the time lapsed between the time that Bilbo took the ring from Gollum and the day the Gandalf noticed that he was following the Fellowship. Gollum was so obsessed with the ring that he eventually came out of his cave and went of a quest to find it or the Hobbit that "stole" it from him. The time that lappsed between Bilbo finding the ring and his 111 b-day party at the beginning of Rings was about 60 years. Then another 14 years past between the events of the b-day party and when Frodo and Sam set out for Bree. Gollum had about 74 some odd years to roam about middle earth looking for the ring.

 

[gallicus]

Hmm... maybe I should put spoiler warnings then. I figured anyone posting here would have at least read the books or seen the movies -- either or, or both. Some of what I put is just general background.

Alchemy is right though, a lot of time did pass between the Hobbit and LOTR. Heck a lot of time passed between when Gandalf left the Ring in Frodo's care, and when he finally came back. I forget the exact time, but it was many years. Not a few days like the movie seemed to suggest.