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Concorde Swansong............

red indian

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.......what a sad day, the last flight of this wonderfull aircraft took place today. It took off from New York and landed for the last time at Heathrow in the U.K. It is such a great plane to look at, from any angle and what ever it is doing, taking off, landing, flying or just standing still. It is a fantastic example of form following function and producing something so breath taking to look at.

It is of course a great shame that as a commercial concern it never developed as it should have. While it is a comfort for us in the U.K. to be proud of such an engineering miracle and console ourselves in the fact that this is one thing the U.S. did not have, we should also reflect that had the U.S. gone down this route and produced something as good as concorde they would have made very sure that it was a success and that it was developed properly as a long term investment.
 
I guess what I heard about...

...Virgin tycoon Richard Branson buying them and keeping them flying didn't pan out after all. What a shame. The end of an Era.
 
BTW.................

.......the French did the menus and the logo on the side of the plane.
 
I work in an office under the (or should that be "a") flightpath to London Heathrow and the reaction when Concorde made her last flight overhead yesterday was incredible as people who I know for a fact have no interest whatsoever in aviation dropped everything to watch. A few minutes later there were crowds around both the TV's as all three planes touched down, with one of our directors retelling his story of having flow her from New York in the 70's. There were tears from some, cheers from others and above all a real feeling of, well, pride in this stunning piece of engineering and design.

As for me, well, she's older than I am and somehow I've always taken it for granted there was something in the skies that regular (albeit well-off) people could climb aboard and break the sound barrier with no more fuss than getting on a train. What other comercial mass-transit aircraft would look so natural flying in formation with the Red Arrows, or inspire such emotion in the general public. No replacement in sight almost fifty years after she was concieved and probably no possibility of one for another fifty. A sad reflection of the all-consuming drive towards higher profits at the cost of imagination, creativity and flair. The end of an era indeed.

There is at least one hope for keeping these aircraft where they belong. While BA were reluctant (alright, flat out said no way) to sell them as a working commercial concern, Sir Richard Branson has changed tactics slightly and is pushing to have them preserved in flight condition as part of the British (and French of course, they did do the majority of the airframe work after all) heritage and I for one hope he knocks some sense into the government. He's not asking for money, or space to do this, only that they insist BA don't mothball them out overseas.
 
Actually..

The Concorde was developed from a US Air Force Technology known as the B 70 Valkyrie. It's a direct offshoot of the Valkyrie Bomber. And in fact looks exactly like a Valkyrie.
Also, the reason the US never developed a Supersonic Passenger Plane was environmental laws concerning noise prohibit flying a commerical or privately owned Supersoning air plane over the Continental US.

Saying that, they were wonderful airplanes, and it's a tribute to them that the reason they are now grounded was economics, vice the technology going stale.

Tron
 
Umm,

To the best of my knowledge Concorde was certainly not a ‘direct offshoot’ of the XB-70. Although the flight profile of the two aircraft is very similar this is more a result of the design necessities of travelling supersonic in a large aircraft rather than a development of the XB-70 design into Concorde. Certainly both aircraft were developed at roughly the same time, with the B-70’s first public unveiling in May 1964, first flight September 21st 1964 and the concept being conceived in 1959, while Concorde was shown to the public in December 1967, flown on March 2nd 1969 and design work started in 1962, with original work on the concept of an SST begun in 1959. Certainly there was no co-operation between the USA and Europe on the design, as the US was attempting to build its own SST at the time and would have kept the information ‘in-house’.

While on the ground the profiles are similar, the XB-70’s delta wing was designed to lower the outer wing sections mechanically when needed. So, from take off to 300 knots it was a flat wing, up to Mach 1.4 the outer wings drop 25 degrees, and from there to Mach 3 they drop 65 degrees. This was done to improve the flight characteristics of the aircraft without requiring extra control surfaces and is a rather ingenious solution to the problem. Obviously such a system was impractical for a commercial aircraft and Concorde’s wing is fixed in one profile. In fact it’s a more complex design than it appears with over 5,000 hours of wind tunnel testing to ensure the wing would perform as required.

In short, while there is a case for the XB-70 providing some concepts and data that influenced SST development, it is probably more accurate to state that it proved these concepts that are themselves based on the (currently) inescapable realities of developing an aircraft of a certain size that can cruise at supersonic speeds.

As for the environmental law prohibiting supersonic flight over the US, this is perhaps one of the most sensitive points in the history of both Concorde and the American-designed SST, the Boeing 2707. On the 24th March 1971 the US Congress abandoned their SST project, leaving Concorde as the sole supersonic passenger aircraft. On the 18th December 1975 the House of Representatives votes 199 to 198 to put a six-month ban on Concorde landing in the USA. Ohio Senator, Clarence J Brown said concerning the ban "I see no reason to oppose the SST (meaning Concorde) just because we were stupid enough to get out of the SST business ourselves". The US Secretary of Transportation provided approval for a limited run service to Washington and New York on 4th February 1976. While the US was by no means alone in banning supersonic flight over their territory (a restriction which, naturally, doesn’t apply to military jets although their flights tend to take place away from population centres), there is a feeling, probably justified, that these concerns would not have come into being if their own SST had proved successful.

It should also be pointed out that Concorde is, now that she’s retired, the only profit-making supersonic passenger aircraft to ever go into service. As Tron said, it’s the combined cost of modifying the fleet following the Paris crash and a drastic increase in maintenance costs from Airbus forcing their retirement as active aircraft, not any technological reason.


Data Sources:
http://www.concordesst.com/
http://www.labiker.org/xb70.html

(Yes, I know, basing any research on only one source per subject = bad practice, but it’s Sunday morning and way too early to be doing a full-on research job).
 
The Valkryie Concept..

Actually dates to 1954, the DESIGN Concept dates to the year you mentioned.
You did give some specficic DIFFERENCES in the design, however the flight controls and operating system is US technology. And is based on the XB-70. Thats why the commercial design came as quickly as it did. Also, the cOncorde design accelerated very quickly after the B 70 was cancelled and the US made the desicion to allow release of some of the technology.

Tron
 
Nice piece BOFH66!!!!!!!!!!!.............

......nice to old Tronny boy being "out tronnied"!!!! i would also add that U.S. duplicity on matters supersonic goes back a little further than just the Concorde project. Back in the post WW2 years when we were up to our ears in debt to the U.S. and they were still seen as the Knight in shining armour, and an ally in every possible way, we had no second thoughts about about sharing our data about supersonic flight with the U.S. to help their own development project. We of course expected them to reciprocate, wich they promised to do. Alas our naivety was punished severely, having taken what they wanted from our work (and called it the X19) they then refused to give up any of their own data on grounds of national security.
 
And this is why it's always a mistake to rely on one source of info folks, never know what you're missing. In this case, the XB-70 site swearing blind the plane was concieved to fill the contract for 'Weapons System 110' in 1959 and that the original concepts were scrapped for being, basically, too large to use existing facilities designed for the B-52. Live and learn.

Don't suppose you've got a web link (or a book source for that matter) to any specifics of what made it in from the XB-70 concept? While there's a lot of info on how the flight controls work the "where it was developed" is a bit thin compared to the design of (for example) the aerodynamics, engines etc. I'd love to know where the crossovers were, especially considering Boeing were still actively pursuing their own SST design for comercial use when they 'retired' the XB-70 in 1969.

*Grabs Fire Extinguisher*

Trying to reply when replies come in to the reply you're replying to is just no fun. Hey, I'm always open to new info, and as I said above this is based off of one source of info for each jet, so the chance of it being wrong is a lot higher than I'm normally comfortable with. I'm sure as heck-diddly-heck not knocking the US when it comes to Supersonic flight, as their military designs have been superb (well, aside from the slight design oops that made the Stealth a tad alergic to rain, but they fixed that PDQ). I'm just depresed that despite all this technology the brave new hope for the future of air travel is a double-decker airplane with a gym in the tail.
 
Not sure.......

.....about your views on Concorde being a profit making business, ok, yes BA bought them for a quid each, it would be pretty hard not to make a "profit" on an airplane that cheap!! but spare a thought for the poor old British and French tax payers who stumped up all the billions of pounds for the research and development and have nothing to show for it!

It makes me feel angry to hear that BA are being so "dog in a manger" about letting anyone else run them as a going concern. Concorde was paid for by the British public who got a very raw deal from an investment that Britain could ill afford at the time. How many Brits could ever hope to afford the £8000 ticket price?
 
See, I look at it another way, yes we taxpayers (or I guess that should be my parents the taxpayers really as I hadn't been born at the time) did pay for it, and BA got the planes basically for free and no money was recovered on the project. BUT, after seeing the reaction from the public on Friday, and the large number of people who've taken pride, joy and comfort in the plane over the years (have a look at the Have your say on the BBC news web site for some examples) I think we got our money's worth out of her.

Just to make you feel even more pi55ed off, Branson said on question time they did think about just buying all the bits and sticking them together after the sale, but BA said they were to be sold on condition they never went back in the air. Nice, huh?
 
Flight control...........

....was one of the areas of interest to the U.S. particularly the tail plane, it was the U.K. tail plane design that was the most important in making the X19 work.....so I am not sure about Tronnies view that we relied on U.S. redundant SST projects to make Concorde.
 
When I was taught what the Concorde was, it wasn't by the US Media as one might expect of a foreign accomplishment or technological advancement. It was by my Dad. An aviation freak his whole life, and a pilot from age 16, it was a given that his children would grow up with a respect for the gift of flight.

My father began working in the Space Industry back in 1960 when things were still so fresh and unexplored. Talk about the perfect job for an engineer...lol~! Things that pushed that ever-loved edge of the envelope spurred his fancy, and thusly the Concorde and its eventual availability to be used by folks with no foothold in aviation was amazing to him and he shared that with his kids. I never understood or appreciated that bird for the reasons my UK friends do. It wasn't something that spurred loud debate here...it wasn't something the average American really cared about. It wasn't news. However, for those of us surrounded by wings throughout our lives, we adored that plane and the poetry it shared. It was just easy to look at as it was a beutiful plane...easy to appreciate for it's speed...and easy for some of us to miss for varied reasons. The Concorde was just a hunk of metal...but through it and it's abilities, I was able to learn a bit more about the sound barrier and my Dad.

Yep, a few of us over here watched one of the last take-offs...but didn't want to watch it land!
Joby
 
Red - as far as the whole 'the USA (specifically the XB-70) developments going into Concorde' thing, while I'm quite willing to belive it I do want to see some documented evidence of this first, hence the request for a reference source (that I can't help but notice hasn't yet appeared). General attitude to life, I may be right, I may be wrong, but if you want me to change my mind convince me with facts not opinions. Seem to work thus far 😉

Jo - Yep, I'll go with all of that. It's surprising (well, to me anyway) how many stories have been told in the last few days in various media outlets, web sites etc that mirror these sentiments more or less exactly, and I can't help but wonder when such a thing will happen again.
 
I saw it take off in 1973 when DFW opened and I was in the 1st grade. I always wanted to fly in it.

Don't the Russians have their own, jokingly called "The Concordskis"?

I'd heard Virgin was going to take them over. So that didn't happen? Rats.

Anyway, it's all kind of sad.
 
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