VeganTickle1
Registered User
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2002
- Messages
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I am responding to the posts made in this issue in this thread...
Responses to medikation65 posts:
It is true, that nature is extremely cruel. But does the fact that "nature suck" justifies anything? Imposing sex forcefully (which we, humans, call "rape"), pointless deprevation of lives (which we, humans call "murder"), as well as "smaller" stuff, such as theft or robery - occur in nature by the minute. Is this the model we embrase to define which act is just or moral, and which one isn't? clearly not. We have developed a sense of judjment towards "natural" things like that, stating they are unjust, immoral, and hence should be faught against. We didn't fight them right away, of course. At the begining we only faught them when they were against the dominant group in the population, which was defined by class, gender, ethnic origin (like, say, white males). It took us a while to realize that females, and members of other ethinical groups deserve the same protection from being hurt, used and abused - like anybody else.
Animals kill each other, often in cruel ways. For some - like the cat - the killing is a necessity for servival because he/she cannot get the nutrients he/she needs from a plant based diet - as I described in my previous post. cat's also, probably don't know better. I cannot fight nature itself, I cannot make the otopic prophecy come true, as sad as it is. I cannot convince cats and lions to avoid mice and antilopes respectively - and even if I could - what argument would I present to their true statement that they NEED meat to servive, and hence it is eaither them, or their prey?
But what about you? you - have the choice. You understand what suffering is, and that choosing a certain act over the other will produce immense suffering. I can talk to you, reason with you, and present you with a viable alternative. I can hopefully convince you that by our common values of avoiding hurtung when we can, of justice and decency - choosing to avoid meat is a more decent choice - because it is avoiding taking part in the industry's cruely towards animals.
Why are you so upset with me? I am not "pushing my beliefs on to you". I am speaking in the name of those who cannot fight for themselves. I am calling you to rise above the perception of animals as "things to eat" and see them as sensing individuals who suffer. Given that - I am calling you to make a consumer's choice - to avoid supporting abusing them.
It is not a matter of "belief". You don't have to be a "believer" in order to resent abuse. There is nothing mystical in the hard core evidence that animals suffer greately from the hand of men, and that our power as consumers is the driving force to support the abuse, or avoid it by not paying for cruelty products.
You are the decision maker when it comes to the fate of those animals. Not the presedent, not the generals, and not the department of commerse. We, the consumenrs, decide by what you buy, if they will or will not be born into this life of hell. Given that you are the decision maker about their fate - who else should I address in their name?
I am truely sorry that you got so upset. I am not your enemy.
I am not "preaching" - but but am doing what I can to convince each and every one I can to join the fight, and take an active stand against the cruelty to animals. It is true that every individual chooses their battle - and you cannot fight in all fronts. But even if you are a hardcore human/worker/etc rights activists with your hands full: I am not asking for your time or money. I am just asking you to choose differently in the supermarket - in order not to pay for products that their production is abusing animals.
On the other subject:
It is true that many animals are being hurt, in a variety of ways. However, the meat industry is not "the smallest thing" - but actually - the biggest thing. How many animals do you think get hurt in bull fights? hundreds? thousands? at most...
How many do you think are killed for food? according to a link another member of the board brought - it is 8.4 Billion a year - according to the USDA in the year 2000. The number I know - in the whole world in 2002 - is 48 Billion.
Taking the first number, given that there are about 300miilion americans - the calculation yields that there are 28 animals killed a year in avrage for each American. (That, by the way, probably doesn't count the number of animals who die in the process - before reaching the slaughter house). Wishing us all long and happy lives, that means that during one's life, there are more than 2000 animals killed for each one of us...
Fighting the abuse of animals for entertainment is important - and every saved animal is a world saved. But the meat industry is surely not a small thing, and if you, tomorrow, stop supporting the meat industry and go veg - then you will save during the rest of your life surely quite a few hundreds of animals - on the statistical level.
The industry doesn't care about your choice as an individual - but if 1000 people - or 100,000 people - make the same choice - oh than - the industry will adjust all right! join the 7.5 million americans who for sure - change the industry's production level by being veg!
You, as the decision maker, as a consumer - have a much bigger impact here - than anywhere else.
Responses to medikation65 posts:
It is true, that nature is extremely cruel. But does the fact that "nature suck" justifies anything? Imposing sex forcefully (which we, humans, call "rape"), pointless deprevation of lives (which we, humans call "murder"), as well as "smaller" stuff, such as theft or robery - occur in nature by the minute. Is this the model we embrase to define which act is just or moral, and which one isn't? clearly not. We have developed a sense of judjment towards "natural" things like that, stating they are unjust, immoral, and hence should be faught against. We didn't fight them right away, of course. At the begining we only faught them when they were against the dominant group in the population, which was defined by class, gender, ethnic origin (like, say, white males). It took us a while to realize that females, and members of other ethinical groups deserve the same protection from being hurt, used and abused - like anybody else.
Animals kill each other, often in cruel ways. For some - like the cat - the killing is a necessity for servival because he/she cannot get the nutrients he/she needs from a plant based diet - as I described in my previous post. cat's also, probably don't know better. I cannot fight nature itself, I cannot make the otopic prophecy come true, as sad as it is. I cannot convince cats and lions to avoid mice and antilopes respectively - and even if I could - what argument would I present to their true statement that they NEED meat to servive, and hence it is eaither them, or their prey?
But what about you? you - have the choice. You understand what suffering is, and that choosing a certain act over the other will produce immense suffering. I can talk to you, reason with you, and present you with a viable alternative. I can hopefully convince you that by our common values of avoiding hurtung when we can, of justice and decency - choosing to avoid meat is a more decent choice - because it is avoiding taking part in the industry's cruely towards animals.
Why are you so upset with me? I am not "pushing my beliefs on to you". I am speaking in the name of those who cannot fight for themselves. I am calling you to rise above the perception of animals as "things to eat" and see them as sensing individuals who suffer. Given that - I am calling you to make a consumer's choice - to avoid supporting abusing them.
It is not a matter of "belief". You don't have to be a "believer" in order to resent abuse. There is nothing mystical in the hard core evidence that animals suffer greately from the hand of men, and that our power as consumers is the driving force to support the abuse, or avoid it by not paying for cruelty products.
You are the decision maker when it comes to the fate of those animals. Not the presedent, not the generals, and not the department of commerse. We, the consumenrs, decide by what you buy, if they will or will not be born into this life of hell. Given that you are the decision maker about their fate - who else should I address in their name?
I am truely sorry that you got so upset. I am not your enemy.
I am not "preaching" - but but am doing what I can to convince each and every one I can to join the fight, and take an active stand against the cruelty to animals. It is true that every individual chooses their battle - and you cannot fight in all fronts. But even if you are a hardcore human/worker/etc rights activists with your hands full: I am not asking for your time or money. I am just asking you to choose differently in the supermarket - in order not to pay for products that their production is abusing animals.
On the other subject:
It is true that many animals are being hurt, in a variety of ways. However, the meat industry is not "the smallest thing" - but actually - the biggest thing. How many animals do you think get hurt in bull fights? hundreds? thousands? at most...
How many do you think are killed for food? according to a link another member of the board brought - it is 8.4 Billion a year - according to the USDA in the year 2000. The number I know - in the whole world in 2002 - is 48 Billion.
Taking the first number, given that there are about 300miilion americans - the calculation yields that there are 28 animals killed a year in avrage for each American. (That, by the way, probably doesn't count the number of animals who die in the process - before reaching the slaughter house). Wishing us all long and happy lives, that means that during one's life, there are more than 2000 animals killed for each one of us...
Fighting the abuse of animals for entertainment is important - and every saved animal is a world saved. But the meat industry is surely not a small thing, and if you, tomorrow, stop supporting the meat industry and go veg - then you will save during the rest of your life surely quite a few hundreds of animals - on the statistical level.
The industry doesn't care about your choice as an individual - but if 1000 people - or 100,000 people - make the same choice - oh than - the industry will adjust all right! join the 7.5 million americans who for sure - change the industry's production level by being veg!
You, as the decision maker, as a consumer - have a much bigger impact here - than anywhere else.
