Discussion for the Artists

[Celtic_Emperor]

I found the following quote in an art section of another forum site. It was a response to a request made by a member asking for a picture to be drawn (for free without having to say it until later). The poster of this quote is apparently an artist there. While there were other replies by different people and most of them were blunt and harsh, I feel this one was the only one worth posting.

I post it simply as a means to gather a concensus and opinion of the artists we have here. This is an open opportunity for you to share your feelings on the matter, and perhaps this quote might lead to a discussion. That is my hope.

Since people here, our fans included, will be reading this, please don't be shy to share your honest opinion or fear that you might be scorned for it or something. With that said, lets keep this civil and talk about it. And please, no one word responses (with or without smilies) or simple replies that don't really touch upon the issue, and please don't just merely agree with what someone has said and leave it at that. Back it up with a good, solid post of your own. No spam basically. I hope I'm not asking for too much. I just find this an interesting issue that we as artists are confronted with all the time and its about time this issue be addressed by us here. 🙂

"In simple terms: To draw something by another's specification confines what would stopper what would normally be a free-flowing flood of inspiration.

I could draw damn near anything if I got a pencil right now, but as soon as I start to think about the restrictions put before me by your request, I find it very, very difficult. I highly suspect it's this way for many an artist, which is why we tend to ask for something in return. Why should we stress and fret and fuss over something for you, when you'll only thank us in return? You might go tell all your friends that I drew for you, and then maybe they'll come pay me a visit, and expect me to draw for them, too. And if I ask for compensation then, they'll tell me I did it for you, for free.

If I cave, I'm opening myself up to be walked on like a doormat. If I insist on cash or compensation, I'm made out as a bad person who's in it for the money rather than for the art itself.

But expecting us to drop everything and do this work for you, you're saying your needs are better than ours. Those here that are professionals rely on their work for food and rent. Those of us who are working toward such a goal can probably barely afford the tools we use. Somehow, I think my need to eat is much above your need to have a custom game portrait. Draw it yourself, or cough up some cash."

 

[Admiral Trouser]

It depends upon the quality of the work, really, doesn't it? If the fellow in the quoted post above happened to be a established artist with a good rep, then you could class him as a "proffessional", and give him all the perks that would entitle him to. Like a fee for his works.

But I suspect he is not, although it's a moot point to be honest with you: The principle still stands that if you're an amature doing pics in your spare time, then you should be grateful that people are willing to show the're appreciation for your scibblings, and personaly you should view this stage of your career (assuming that artistry is to *be* your career) as building up a good reputation for yourself and getting your name bandied about the net and elsewhere. Think of it as free advertisement that will pave you an easier path to success later on in the game, and hopefully you'll take requests with a little less griping...

Not aimed at you, Celtic...just at the generic Woe Is Me Artist 🙂

AT

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Thank you for your post. 🙂 Good points. Although, to further supplement your final comment, not all artists are "starving" or "tortured" artists. I myself am neither starving nor tortured and my future career may or many not revolve around my art. Up until now I've seen it mostly as a hobby and passtime. I agree in the sentiment that artists such as myself should be grateful that we get free publicity. This only helps to foster a growing support and fanbase which will continue in our transition from amateur to professional, if that is our path.

However, this is very much a double-edged sword also. The reason I used that quote is because it hit home in several ways for me. Mainly this part-

"If I cave, I'm opening myself up to be walked on like a doormat. If I insist on cash or compensation, I'm made out as a bad person who's in it for the money rather than for the art itself."

That part of the quote really concerned me because I saw a reflection of what has become of me. Whether I or anyone else fully sees it or not I personally (as I can only speak for myself) have been overwhelmed with requests. Since I got here in late 2001, I've been drawing what I want and I've also been drawing out requests. The important thing to note is that I've not faultered in delivering. I used to be able to say "yes, I will", and now its turning into "I'll think about it", as of late.

I am simply getting more requests, public and private than I can handle. I know, the easy answer is to say 'no'. But therein lies my flaw. I am a generous person with my art, and its hard for me to say 'no'. Lately, I've been more agressive and decisive in saying yes and no to requests based on what I want to draw and what I don't want to draw at any given time. I'm finally listening to myself and the advice of my peers, both artist and not, and standing my ground. I have, in some ways, become a "doormat" for alot of people here in this community (the community not this site inparticular). Whats sad about this is I've allowed it. I've become an endentured servant to you all and quite frankly, its over. No need to congradulate me, I'm congradulating myself. My SN was becoming a bit ironic there for a while. But then again, maybe thats what makes it work. LOL

Anyways, to focus more on the quote itself, everything he said I can find myself agreeing with, mainly in that I'm at a stage of evolution right now where I can choose to continue as I am or become more professional and produce a product I can be both proud of and make a profit on at the same time.

As he (don't know if its a guy, but for simplicities sake I'll say 'he') said though-

"If I insist on cash or compensation, I'm made out as a bad person who's in it for the money rather than for the art itself."

As you can see, I'm clearly troubled by this in the state of mind I am in as I type this. I'll be fine later, but right now I'm between a rock and a hard place and so are some of the other artists whose material is good enough to sell.

I and so many others everywhere, are trapped in a state of flux that we can only leave by making a choice. Personally, the work you see me post is just a sample of what I'm capable of. And if theres that extra incentive of money or personal gain then it makes charging to have my work all the more while.

I just don't want to be made out as a bad person because of this. Alot of people could be considered freeloaders and leeches when it comes to this topic. And as soon as the word 'money' is heard they run for the hills and never come back. So much for their loyalty. I guess it couldn't widthstand the final test.

Finally, and more to the point since I'm trailing off a bit, I agree we should be grateful, but at the same time, you, the viewer and fan should realize that sometimes 'thank yous' and the many other signs of appriciation aren't enough. There is nothing more you can give us...but your money that is. That is the next and final level. I believe all advanced art that has been toiled over deserves a price for it both figuratively and literally where it would apply.

Do we want your thanks? Yes. Its really all we can honestly expect from you (you the viewers, not you, Admiral).

I'm trapped. That quote and post really got to me. So much so that I had to post it and hear what the other artists think. Surely they will agree with me (I hope). Its only natural to want a fair trade for our work, but we can get nothing more without charging for it. And most of us don't seem to want to do that if it can be avoided.

 

[Admiral Trouser]

Methinks you need to sit back in a comfy leather chair, light up the old log fire and eat some mars bars 😉

I'm not an artist. At best (or worst...sometimes it's worst) I'm an author, of sorts, and though some would class prose as an art form of sorts, to me, its not. But even if it was, I wouldn't get as worked up about the nature of my contributions to this site like you do. Perhaps thats a blessing, perhaps it's not, but from my viewpoint I think you need to put all of this back into its true perspective and thus save yourself alot of unneccassary stress and angst.
At the end of the day, this is your *hobby*. You draw, I presume, for fun and enjoyment. You're proud of your work, and so you should be, or else why would you be in such high demand? But at the end of the day, it's all *your* show, and generous nature aside, you should just be able to say "no" to those requests that you can't...or won't...do. If someone comes up with an interesting idea, then that's incentive to go ahead and fulfill that request. People *will* understand if you just turn around and say: "Look, guys, I'm too busy and I don't want to, ok?" We're not going to tear you limb from limb because you're refusing us, you don't have a quota to work to.
As for people being "loyal" to you...or not, as the case might seem...what's with that, anyway? Seems a little bit judgemental really; Just because they won't/can't pay for your work doesn't make them disloyal. At worst, it makes them thrifty. Since you're not proclaiming to be an established artist of any sort, and that your work is simply your hobby and talent that you evidently wish to share with us all, no-one is expecting to pay for it. In my opinion, I think BOF666 should get *his* stuff published, and I'd gladly pay to read his stuff. But he doesn't...its his hobby, and there's no fee included to read it 😉
If you want to move up the proverbial ladder and start charging the public for your work...go for it, I dare say you'll be quite successful, and you'll have more "loyal" fans paying your way than you think you have. Certainly, there isn't much harm in trying for it, non?

Apologies for the length.

AT

 

[ShadowTklr]

I would have to agree with Admiral. I think you've gotten yourself crazed over something that should never be a burden to someone who gives of himself.

Getting requests from people is the NEXT HIGHEST form of flattery. It means that they are impressed with your talent and would like to see more of it. Great! There is nothing wrong with that. If you have time and your inspiration strikes you to create something along the lines of the request, then that's a wonderful thing. Short of that, I'm not sure why you should feel an obligation to fulfill anyones' request. After all, its JUST a request. You'll be able to identify the important request right away - the HIGHEST form of flattery - its called a COMMISSION!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Hmm...

I would have to agree with Admiral. I think you've gotten yourself crazed over something that should never be a burden to someone who gives of himself.

What? Celtic Emporer getting crazed over something? NO WAY!!! Taking so much to say so very little...LOL. (J/K, love ya man!) All joking aside, I see each request as a challenge, a hurdle to overcome to condition my own artistic ability. Like if someone requests an image of a real life celebrity. Now I am terrible at realism, but that doesnt me I won't do it. It forces me to expand my creative boundaries in new directions.

On a side note I always "accept" all requests that are made of me, but they all end up on one long request list I've been keeping since the late 90's that I refer back too whenever I'm strapped for my own ideas. Basically its a method of keeping me active when I have an artists block...usually by the time I'm done with a request, I have a knew idea for Cali and Friends or one of my other projects.

The only thing all the requests tell me is that people enjoy my work. Sure a few may act like they are royalty whos desires MUST be met immediately...for those people I give a massive dose of reality or most usually don't even bother responding to them.

To sum things up; I value and appreciate my fans, despite how annoying they may get to be once in a while. And the reality that a few are polishing wee willy winky the one-eyed wonder weasel while viewing my work doesnt discourage me either. ROFLMAO....

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Everyone's points are well taken, and I appriciate the feedback to both the quote and to my own concerns.

However Admiral, I knew that the loyalty thing might come back to bite me, but see, what I meant by that was those that CAN afford it but wouldn't pay for it. Honestly people we say all the time in the real world that we can't afford this and we can't afford that, and the things we ARE paying for are overpriced, expensive or we're living luxuriously in some way. We can more than afford say a subscription to a tickling magazine. Its not THAT expensive when you figure in the other costs of living which aren't necessary to the degree they are being met or lived out.

Simply put, what I meant by loyalty is someone splitting just because they don't want to pay, even though they can if they further rassion their budgets a bit. What gets me is those that get the work by another means without having to pay for it. I think that would piss off anyone. It should.

As far as those that cannot genuinely afford it, thats different and I'm not questioning their integrity or loyalty to me or whomever they follow as a fan.

As far as the assumed exageration and fuss on my part, its only directly proportional to the quote itself. I'm not nearly as perplexed as I seemed in my second post. I even said myself " I am clearly troubled by this in the state of mind I am in as I type this".

Looking back at what I said, I don't nearly feel as strong about it as I did. As far as me personally though, you all need to understand that I don't like denying people. Having to isn't fun and I wouldn't want to lose their patronage because of it. I have countless fans/viewers however, so this isn't that big an issue. If I was struggling to make it here or anywhere then clearly I wouldn't be composed at all.

I myself have made a list of requests that have yet to be met. While I listen to all requests before I say yes or no to them, they all go on the list until such a time as I can deal with them. CC is apparently doing the same thing, as I suspect other artists are. I wouldn't want people thinking we are slackers though. While they'll think what they want anyways regardless of what we say or do, you can't help but wonder sometimes. This is/was very much so a curiousity on my part more so than it was a serious concern that could turn into a problem or something like that. Its not nearly that urgent or important.

I mainly just wanted to know what you guys and gals thought about the quote. I can find no fault or foul in it. He spoke the truth even at the price of looking like a jerk.

 

[Dave2112]

I can only speak from my own personal experience here, so I hope nobody takes anything I'm about to say as "The Thing To Do".

Doing requests for people on the Internet can widen your fan base, but can be a Pandora's Box later down the line, as noted. Before I begin, I'd also like to note that some of what I'm saying may not apply to line artists. So far, I'm the only artists who works in CGI to respond to this (I'd really like to hear Restif's opinion on this matter as well), but there are some parallels.

If you have the talent to bring someone else's vision to life, it is up to you if you want to spend your career doing that. There are artists who post their works on the Internet on forums like the TMF, and there are those who make money doing this. When you are first starting out, and if it's within your talents, doing a few requests never hurts. However, you can't let it get out of hand. There comes a time when you simply have to say "I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time." I once posted my only Celeb image so far (my attempt at Rachel Liegh Cook) and was immediatly asked to do a Shania Twian, a Brittney Spears and a host of other lovelies. However, I don't think people understand what it takes to model a Poser figure after a real-life individual. Restif's recent Jennifer Garner work was amazing, but if he were to chime in here, I'm sure he'd tell you that portraits (the 3-D term for making a figure look like a certain person) are a serious pain in the ass. Drawing is one thing...this is quite different. Not harder or "better" at all...just different.

So how does this relate to all art? I don't think that a lot of fans really understand what is involved in creating some of the images that we make. It's not out of any maleavolence or selfishness (although that's out there, too), it's simply a lack of understanding. Many people have little or no artistic talent and would LOVE to have it. This is where most requests originate. "I can't do this, but am dying to see it!"

Many of us have (as mentioned) a long list of requests dating back a long time. I think this can lead to inspiration, but you can't let it dictate your art. If you are one of those artists who sells some of thier work (Ozzy, BZ, Restif, myself, Scamwich and others) you get to a point where you have to separate your "Fan Base" from your "Consumer Base". For myself, I know that there is a level of work required for my projects that I don't have to achieve for my "freebie" stuff.

As far as requests "limiting your creativity", I think that's a matter of personal expression. Some find it limiting, others find new inspiration. People who make requests simply need to understand that artists are not "picture machines" that can create on command. It doesn't work that way.

Due to the nature of my medium, I am limited in the requests I can do. You don't simply draw a feather or draw Cammy's "Street Fighter" costume...you have to find these props or figures, download them, manipulate them or even create them for those of us with the software to do so. (This is not intended to imply that drawing is "Simple", I'm just showing the difference in approaches.)

I would say that each artist must make up his/her mind to do requests or not. If you are in the business of doing commisions, then you are limited to the consumer's taste. Many out there do just that, and even then consumers must understand that the artist has a certain style that will permeate any request.

For the most part, I haven't seen much animosity or sour grapes among the artists and fans here at the TMF. Most requests are along the lines of "If you could do this, it would be cool". I would never feel pressured into doing requests. However, if you don't, an explanation is due your loyal fans. Simply put (and I've said this before) "I try to please my fans as much as possible. However, I do not spend my life creating tickling art and just don't have the time to fill all requests. I thank you for your interest and hope that it serves as inspiration for future works." Something like that. Sometimes something will come along that is similar to something someone asked for, in which case I will give a nod to the person who made the request and provided the inspiration, even if it's not exactly what may have been asked for.

I hope this helps a little. 😎

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

It helps alot. Thanks for taking the time to give your most eloquant point of view. 🙂

Part of the frustration, as you pointed out, is in the requesters or fans not quite understanding just how complicated, difficult, and time consuming some requests can be.

I personally strive for perfection in my art. That means it takes longer to produce a single piece thats really good (in my mind). Some fans don't understand that and seem rather persistant and hasty. While most of the people that have requested from me are quite patient and are willing to wait for a piece (especially if they are a repeat requester)there are those that are impatient and don't let up in asking when a request will be finished. Its these ones that get to me for some reason or another. And it is those ones to whom the quote I shared with you would apply most of all.

 

[Dave2112]

I hear what you're saying about perfectionism. This is the main reason it takes so long for me to release a project. Even the freebies I put here are farther between these days, as I get anal about everything being "just right". For me, it's facial expressions and hand positioning. I've seen Poser work where the standard expressions or hand positions just don't work with the piece. I probably overdo it, but I'm really neurotic about every finger being in a realistic place.

All in all, I'd say just do what you do, appreciate the accolades and do the requests that you feel you either can, or have time for. In my time here at the TMF, I've found the artists and art fans to be the most understanding and/or forgiving, so I wouldn't really waste to much time worrying about it. Your real fans will always follow where you're going.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I don't think you're overdoing it at all. People that would say you are can't really understand how its worth it in the long run and final stages of a piece. The harder you push yourself the more you will have shown yourself and realized that you are capable of much, much more. And obviously this can do nothing but good things for you. It may aggrivate us, but its for our betterment.