I understand that many of you would like to see a part of you continue the fecundity of your name, genetics, etc...but with your own experiences with pain and adversity, as well as seeing how degenerated out society has become....do you feel that it is worth bringing another person into this world and having them subjected to similar sufferings? your thoughts, thanks again 😉
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do you think it is selfish to have children?
- Thread starter lust4feet
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TicklingDuo
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Yes, there is evil and suffering in the world. But, there's also a great deal of beauty and good. Bringing a child into the world simply to "carry on the name" may itself be a bit selfish. But, think about it. You give up a lot in order to have a child and raise them properly. That's not selfish. It's very self-giving if you're going to be a decent parent.
Ann
Ann
Texas_Tickle
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TicklingDuo said:
I don't think there is anything wrong with that. However, I do know somebody (in real life) who has kid, after kid, after kid (by 3 different fathers) just so she can get more welfare money, only to use that money for her dope and crack.
Haltickling
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Yes, this is a sorry condition the world exists in presently. However, mankind's only chance to change it to a positive world are children. Raised, educated, and treated properly, THEY will be able to increase the amount of positive forces in the world, maybe finally to overcome the problems. Not having children won't solve a single problem (except maybe in overpopulated parts of the world).
All times are hard in their own way, and that's mostly because of evolutionary pressure: the selection principle. Without procreation, we deny the world any chance of improvement. Without children, we'll become extinct.
All times are hard in their own way, and that's mostly because of evolutionary pressure: the selection principle. Without procreation, we deny the world any chance of improvement. Without children, we'll become extinct.
Just to play Devil's Advocate
Isn't it selfish not to have children? After all, not only are you depriving someone of a potentionally very satisfying life, you might be depriving the world of a great artist, musician, philospher, scientist, etc. You never know. Plus not having children goes against the need of the species to reproduce 🙂. If we all acted "unselfishly" soon there'd be no human race left to be selfish <g>
Isn't it selfish not to have children? After all, not only are you depriving someone of a potentionally very satisfying life, you might be depriving the world of a great artist, musician, philospher, scientist, etc. You never know. Plus not having children goes against the need of the species to reproduce 🙂. If we all acted "unselfishly" soon there'd be no human race left to be selfish <g>
Hi Ann!
thank you for your reply and perspective! Yes, I understand your view that properly raising your child is itself very rewarding...but there is just so much uncertainty and risk taking with having a child. As hard as parents might try to raise their children to be righteous and law abiding citizens, sometimes other forms of influence (media, peers, etc) might serve more powerful in molding their ideas. I used to have a rather optimistic view on having children, but I must be candid, though not bowing down to terrorism, the events of September 11th have made me muse about this issue much more...I can only imagine the pain of the families of those victims, the mothers and father who brought life into this world only to have it come to an end jumping off the Twin Towers...or regular day situations, such as the suffering of diseases/cancer. To give the gift of life is the most beautiful act of human compassion, though in current times, I pose a rather ambivalent attitude regarding this matter. Continue your thoughts please, thanks again! 😉
thank you for your reply and perspective! Yes, I understand your view that properly raising your child is itself very rewarding...but there is just so much uncertainty and risk taking with having a child. As hard as parents might try to raise their children to be righteous and law abiding citizens, sometimes other forms of influence (media, peers, etc) might serve more powerful in molding their ideas. I used to have a rather optimistic view on having children, but I must be candid, though not bowing down to terrorism, the events of September 11th have made me muse about this issue much more...I can only imagine the pain of the families of those victims, the mothers and father who brought life into this world only to have it come to an end jumping off the Twin Towers...or regular day situations, such as the suffering of diseases/cancer. To give the gift of life is the most beautiful act of human compassion, though in current times, I pose a rather ambivalent attitude regarding this matter. Continue your thoughts please, thanks again! 😉
BellaRisa
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I second all that Ann said, and I must add that for me, the desire to have babies is far more physical than mental at first; Rather than a desire to carry on my genes or his name, I literally felt the need/instinct to be pregnant-twice so far. I really can't explain it but I imagine other mothers can relate-it feels 'right'. 🙂
Your question about our children going through the pain that we did rang a bell with me. My little girl is starting school this year, after being home with me. I won't be able to protect her from the world anymore-mean kids, heinous teachers, school bus traumas. It makes me want to either homeschool or just go live in the mountains for 12 yrs...but she would miss out on many important rites of passage, and all the wonderfulness that the world has to offer, and there's a lot of that too. THAT would be selfish.
The world has always been a mixed bag, some parts good and some parts heinous. There was never a time that I know of that was perfect for having babies, but I do believe that our world is getting better. VERRRRRY slowly, but surely. We have each new generation to thank for that. Yes, things still suck big time in all kinds of ways, but we have cures for many diseases that our grandparents didn't, technology that helps us in many ways, Foo Fighters, Ben and Jerry's, etc. Hopefully future generations will wipe out even more of what hurts us today.
Bella, Libby and Rosie's Mama
Your question about our children going through the pain that we did rang a bell with me. My little girl is starting school this year, after being home with me. I won't be able to protect her from the world anymore-mean kids, heinous teachers, school bus traumas. It makes me want to either homeschool or just go live in the mountains for 12 yrs...but she would miss out on many important rites of passage, and all the wonderfulness that the world has to offer, and there's a lot of that too. THAT would be selfish.
The world has always been a mixed bag, some parts good and some parts heinous. There was never a time that I know of that was perfect for having babies, but I do believe that our world is getting better. VERRRRRY slowly, but surely. We have each new generation to thank for that. Yes, things still suck big time in all kinds of ways, but we have cures for many diseases that our grandparents didn't, technology that helps us in many ways, Foo Fighters, Ben and Jerry's, etc. Hopefully future generations will wipe out even more of what hurts us today.
Bella, Libby and Rosie's Mama
Haltickling said:
and just in case, while it might appear coincidental, the broaching of this topic was not inspired by the other thread discussing the potential extinction of bananas. 😉
With regards to what you have said Haltickling, denying a chance for improvement...improvement for who? If humans, are you suggesting this world is for us and us exclusively? Haven't we already improved so much already at the expense of other creatures and the environment?
as is well, this just came to mind, since we are on this issue....with regards to the rapid gouging of resources in this world that have taken thousands of year to generate (and some that never might again) do you feel that there will be enough to go around for future generations? With the increase of technology, machinery, waste and pollution, can I guarantee that my child will be able to breathe fresh air and drink pure water twenty or thirty years down the road?
your opinions are greatly appreciated...thanks again! 😉
Five Quick points
Speaking as someone who was raised on the apocalyptic cinematic visions of the 1960s and 1970s ("Soylent Green" being one of the most interesting), I have a considerably less optimistic view of the world and of people. So here are a few things to consider.
One, we can barely house and feed the population we already have. Already our fuel supplies are running out and our next likely fuel source (ethanol) is endangered because most of the land that could be used for growing corn is being torn up to build these cul-de-sac neighborhoods for all these young couples and families who cart their three children to the mall in an exorbitantly consuming SUV and three-child capacity strollers looking around for the ultimate kiddie clothes bargain sale while buying an endless array of Pokeman videos. Like the sticker says, "if ya can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em." America needs to learn that lesson. If august spies reads this, I'm sure he'll have something to say.
Two, realize that while there IS a biological reason for wanting children (women will vouch for it), understand that most of the reasons you want to start a family is because of cultural influence and social pressure. A lot of societies are designed around tradition SO thoroughly that we actually manage our lives as though we are machines. Notice that your parents tell you all throughout adolescence to avoid sex and never have children; but as soon as you pass that 26-year mark, they can't stop begging you to start pumping them out, as though your life was on a planner. And your friends get on you about it too. So think first: are you doing it for YOU, or are you doing it for THEM? Do you want your family to try running your life forever?
Three: religion. Religion is a dubious excuse for it. There are a lot of Catholics out there and all the morality and procedure about sex can weigh heavily on the mind. First of all, according to the dogma, your sex life is designed to produce children, NOT for your own enjoyment; if you do enjoy it, fine, but if nothing comes from it, you're in trouble. Also the church (of any kind) tells you to avoid contraception, birth control and abortion, all of which are preventative measures against having children. Notice that in their rhetoric the church thinks your sex drive can be switched on and off like a light switch, but your ability to have children should NEVER be touched. Are you a person, or a brood mare for the state?
Four, really think about your abilities as a parent. Children are our future because they will be able to live beyond us and fix what we won't live long enough to. Essentially, parenting is sacrifice, mostly giving up YOUR life for someone else. Noble, but that sacrifice can cause bitterness and resentment, and if you think you WON'T take that out on your kids, think again. This is part of the reason I think you should have a license to have children. Because as we've seen in the Middle East, children can also be used to keep a war going.
Five. Your child is NOT YOU. You may have idealized perceptions about life with a family will be like, and there's a lot of narcissism in that. Your child will have it's own personality, it's own wants and desires; some of them will be SIMILAR to you, but your child is not a small version of yourself. You will have to get used to that and the differences involved. If you are a concert pianist and your child is tone deaf, LEAVE IT ALONE! It HAPPENS! If you can't deal with it, don't bother having them. Otherwise, this conflict is gonna damage you both!
And by the way, PBL,
Isn't it selfish not to have children? After all, not only are you depriving someone of a potentionally very satisfying life, you might be depriving the world of a great artist, musician, philospher, scientist, etc.
You could be depriving someone of a really really HORRIBLE existence. Remember that the world at large has a very powerful effect on people and can overshadow and even corrupt the good traits they might have (Hitler wanted to be a painter, then his father and the world got to him. Results were catastrohpic to say the least.)
We already have 6-7 billion people, I think we are not in danger of running out of people yet. Let's focus on the world first, people later.
Speaking as someone who was raised on the apocalyptic cinematic visions of the 1960s and 1970s ("Soylent Green" being one of the most interesting), I have a considerably less optimistic view of the world and of people. So here are a few things to consider.
One, we can barely house and feed the population we already have. Already our fuel supplies are running out and our next likely fuel source (ethanol) is endangered because most of the land that could be used for growing corn is being torn up to build these cul-de-sac neighborhoods for all these young couples and families who cart their three children to the mall in an exorbitantly consuming SUV and three-child capacity strollers looking around for the ultimate kiddie clothes bargain sale while buying an endless array of Pokeman videos. Like the sticker says, "if ya can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em." America needs to learn that lesson. If august spies reads this, I'm sure he'll have something to say.
Two, realize that while there IS a biological reason for wanting children (women will vouch for it), understand that most of the reasons you want to start a family is because of cultural influence and social pressure. A lot of societies are designed around tradition SO thoroughly that we actually manage our lives as though we are machines. Notice that your parents tell you all throughout adolescence to avoid sex and never have children; but as soon as you pass that 26-year mark, they can't stop begging you to start pumping them out, as though your life was on a planner. And your friends get on you about it too. So think first: are you doing it for YOU, or are you doing it for THEM? Do you want your family to try running your life forever?
Three: religion. Religion is a dubious excuse for it. There are a lot of Catholics out there and all the morality and procedure about sex can weigh heavily on the mind. First of all, according to the dogma, your sex life is designed to produce children, NOT for your own enjoyment; if you do enjoy it, fine, but if nothing comes from it, you're in trouble. Also the church (of any kind) tells you to avoid contraception, birth control and abortion, all of which are preventative measures against having children. Notice that in their rhetoric the church thinks your sex drive can be switched on and off like a light switch, but your ability to have children should NEVER be touched. Are you a person, or a brood mare for the state?
Four, really think about your abilities as a parent. Children are our future because they will be able to live beyond us and fix what we won't live long enough to. Essentially, parenting is sacrifice, mostly giving up YOUR life for someone else. Noble, but that sacrifice can cause bitterness and resentment, and if you think you WON'T take that out on your kids, think again. This is part of the reason I think you should have a license to have children. Because as we've seen in the Middle East, children can also be used to keep a war going.
Five. Your child is NOT YOU. You may have idealized perceptions about life with a family will be like, and there's a lot of narcissism in that. Your child will have it's own personality, it's own wants and desires; some of them will be SIMILAR to you, but your child is not a small version of yourself. You will have to get used to that and the differences involved. If you are a concert pianist and your child is tone deaf, LEAVE IT ALONE! It HAPPENS! If you can't deal with it, don't bother having them. Otherwise, this conflict is gonna damage you both!
And by the way, PBL,
Isn't it selfish not to have children? After all, not only are you depriving someone of a potentionally very satisfying life, you might be depriving the world of a great artist, musician, philospher, scientist, etc.
You could be depriving someone of a really really HORRIBLE existence. Remember that the world at large has a very powerful effect on people and can overshadow and even corrupt the good traits they might have (Hitler wanted to be a painter, then his father and the world got to him. Results were catastrohpic to say the least.)
We already have 6-7 billion people, I think we are not in danger of running out of people yet. Let's focus on the world first, people later.
As the saying goes, life happens when you're making other plans. I had already begun the steps toward adoption when my little "Accident" happened. Dare I say he's the best thing that ever happened to me?
I have to disagree with Amn on this topic. We've discussed it before now. As a parent who has seen both sides and FELT both sides of the parenting issue, I can say that having a child is not in and of itself a selfish act. A person who brings a child into the world then neglects him or her has made a selfish choice. Bringing a child into the world who is loved and nurtured could very well change the course of history for the better. Unlike you Amn, I don't believe humanity is bound for self destruction. I don't think a person's religious views are silly reasons for having kids. Most base beliefs in religions tend to have a bearing in the natural world anyway. Cultural reasons aren't bad either, in my eyes, as they are often the glue that hold a people together beyond the rites of childbirth. I could go on, but I'll just say that I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote. 😛 But, in a nice way.
On another note...
Beyond every other choice a person can make in this lifetime, I think that how you put yourself in line with the next generation is the most important. It's not because of "parental love" or a sense of obligation that someone might feel. It's simply that the young will be the next cluster to change the planet. It's every adult's responsibility to tend to that crop of young minds and hearts.
I know from experience, that my child has had an influence in the world. He's already changed some bits of it for the better. It's more than I can say about "adults." Selfish? Nope. Not in my case anyway.
How Hitler came into play, I'm not really sure. There is one Hitler among the billions of persons on the planet. *shrug* Ya lost me there.
Joby
I have to disagree with Amn on this topic. We've discussed it before now. As a parent who has seen both sides and FELT both sides of the parenting issue, I can say that having a child is not in and of itself a selfish act. A person who brings a child into the world then neglects him or her has made a selfish choice. Bringing a child into the world who is loved and nurtured could very well change the course of history for the better. Unlike you Amn, I don't believe humanity is bound for self destruction. I don't think a person's religious views are silly reasons for having kids. Most base beliefs in religions tend to have a bearing in the natural world anyway. Cultural reasons aren't bad either, in my eyes, as they are often the glue that hold a people together beyond the rites of childbirth. I could go on, but I'll just say that I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote. 😛 But, in a nice way.
On another note...
Beyond every other choice a person can make in this lifetime, I think that how you put yourself in line with the next generation is the most important. It's not because of "parental love" or a sense of obligation that someone might feel. It's simply that the young will be the next cluster to change the planet. It's every adult's responsibility to tend to that crop of young minds and hearts.
I know from experience, that my child has had an influence in the world. He's already changed some bits of it for the better. It's more than I can say about "adults." Selfish? Nope. Not in my case anyway.
How Hitler came into play, I'm not really sure. There is one Hitler among the billions of persons on the planet. *shrug* Ya lost me there.
Joby
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selfLESS not selfISH
Having and raising children (and doing it properly) is one of the most selfless acts that one can undertake. It's the mindful choice to create a new sentient, and correctly care for it until it reaches that state. This choice basically means putting the needs and wants of the self behind that of ones offspring on almost all levels.
It doesn't get more selfless then that.
It's also why I've chosen not to have kids. I don't have it in me.
Myriads
Having and raising children (and doing it properly) is one of the most selfless acts that one can undertake. It's the mindful choice to create a new sentient, and correctly care for it until it reaches that state. This choice basically means putting the needs and wants of the self behind that of ones offspring on almost all levels.
It doesn't get more selfless then that.
It's also why I've chosen not to have kids. I don't have it in me.
Myriads
maverick83
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Selfishness usually lies in one's intentions, not necessarily in one's actions. Therefore, I think having children could be either selfish or selfless, depending on the reason(s). Same with not having children. Myself? I'm never having children. Simple as that. Does that make me selfish? Selfless? Matter of opinion and perspective.
