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For Red Indian - Did You Know...?

Strelnikov

4th Level Red Feather
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...that 62 years ago today, 20 Aug 1940, Winston Churchill said of the RAF, "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Strelnikov
 
Strel,

I can gurantee you that he knows it...lol...he told me!

I'm just popping in here so you know you're not being ignored. Mr. Indian is out of his country of residence on a holiday for the next couple of weeks. I'll relay the message. 🙂

Joby
 
Churchill...

Exagerrated. Even without winning the Battle Of Britain the English would not have been in danger of German invasion. The RN still had control of the seas and more importantly the English Channel. Also, the Germans could not have mounted a major invasion of England for the simple reason, They had no landing ships. Operation Sea Lion was
never more than a concept and intelligence ploy by the Germans.
Mostly all the RAF did was prevent more English civilians from dying, and give Britain a solid morale booster. It really had no major impact on the war in general. Again, great Churchill bravado but unlike most Brits, Churchill had a talent for over statement that was matched by few.
If you really want to get technical, Churchills statement should apply to the Russian Divisions that braved Stalingrad, with primitive weapons and nothing more than raw courage to sustain them. If any effort or Battle Bled the German war machine down, it was Stalingrad and the fierce fighting on the Eastern Front.
Or the American Pilots at the Battle Of Midway. Outnumbered, in obsolete air plains they managed to sink almost the entire offensive air arm of the Japanese Navy, therefore turning the tide of the Pacific war in one afternoon.

Or the Brits at Dunkirk. Even though it was technically a retreat, saving the major portion of the British army had a much more far reaching effect on the war that went wAY past morale.

All the above are examples of cases where fewer people than the RAF had a much more decisive and far reaching affect on the war.

Be Safe

Tron
 
Thanks for the history lesson, Tron. I still think there is something to be said for bravado and feel-good moments.

Joby
 
Tron-

For an interesting "what-if", see Kenneth Macksey's "Invasion: The German Invasion of England, July 1940". Macmillan Publishing, New York, 1980.

Strelnikov
 
Reach for the Sky

There is no evidence to support the view that Hitlers invasion plans were "an intelligence ploy" and if it was, it certainly was not very "intelligent" to have a substantial portion of your own airforce destroyed as a "ploy", Goering may have been that stupid but not Hitler.

It was paramount to destroy the RAF as a prelude to invasion across the channel, thereby freeing up the Luftwaffe to deal with the RN during a cross channel assault (surely your knowledge of naval battles of the time tells you how devastating an unchallenged airiel attack in such a confined space as the channel would have been?)


The truth is the Germans thought the Battle of Britain would be a push over, they had decimated what passed for "air forces" in Belgium, France and Poland and expected to do the same to the RAF, but they were in for a nasty suprise. This suprise had a major impact on Hitlers thinking,and as a result it became expedient for Hitler and his generals to claim they were "never serious" about invasion once the RAF had made it impossible.


You also blow a major hole in your own argument by mentioning Dunkirk, Dunkirk was not a "technical retreat" it was a retreat plain and simple, and was close to a defeat in detail.The BEF lost all its military equipment, not some, ALL of it, and it is this, that made the prospect of invasion so enticing. The Germans knew that we would be as good as unarmed if they could get across the channel with their own air force free to deal with the RN, but the RAF stood in the way. I dont suggest for a moment that the RN would have been powerless to act, nor do I suggest the Germans thought the invasion by sea was going to be easy, a number of the high command were against the idea all along but many were not, but they all knew that air supremacy was the key to it all.



The German plans for sea lion may have been unrealistic, the neccesary equipment may not have been in place, but are you telling me they were any better prepared for Barbarossa? no winter clothing for an invasion of Russia? no four wheel drive vehicles? etc...and by the way, who supplied these Russian forces with a great deal of their war materiel before they had moved production to siberia ? Britain
and the British Navy and merchant Navy, war fighting goods we could ill afford to spare,a lot of which is at the bottom of the north sea curtesy of the German u boat fleet.

As for your remarks about "fewer people" are you telling me that the total man power involved in the BEF to France or the Red Armys defence of Stalingrad was LOWER than the number of men involved in the Battle of Britain? I think you should stick to stories about people messing about in wooden boats with no engines.


It is also worth remembering the importance of the British radar system in the BoB, it was state of the art at the time, the Germans had nothing anywhere near as good and would you believe it??? yes indeed, niether did the Americans!!! and if the BoB was as insignificant as you claim, why were the Americans so keen to adopt the systems we had developed? learn your history Neutron, learn your history.


Make sense.

Red.
 
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.....and another thing!!....

most of the air craft on the British side in the BoB were considered obsolete compered to the german machines, the Boulton Paul Defiant and more notably the Hurricane. These machines shot down more German aircraft than the Spitfire ever did in the BoB, this was a cause of some embarrasment to the Germans, as having correctly recognised the Hurricane as "a dreadfull old puffer" they proceeded to allow themselves to be shot down in large numbers by it! this uncomfortable truth gave birth to the affliction known as "Spitfire snobbery" whereby german pilots whos aircraft were badly damaged or shot down would claim to have always been hit by a Spitfire rather than admitt it was a Hurricane.

So your argument that the USAF were the only and the first to fight against greater odds and superior machines is clearly rubbish.

Make Sense.

Red.
 
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Welcome back, Red!

As I mentioned above, see Mr. Macksey's book for an interesting "what-if". He makes a plausible case. Sealion might have worked if (1) the BoB had been started in June 1940; (2) the Luftwaffe had concentrated on destroying Fighter Command's bases and radar installations, which was within their capability, instead of switching to a blitz on London; and (3) the seaborne invasion had followed on the BoB immediately, before the British Army could rearm.

Then again, the RAF still might have won. I'd like to think so, anyway.

Strelnikov
 
Hi Strell!

Thanks for the tip, I have heard of this book vaguley, I will look in to it.

There is a lot of truth in the suggestion that had the Luftwaffe kept hammering away at fighter commands infrastructure the result could have been very different, but of course Goering had no way of knowing how close he was to his goal of wiping out fighter command. On such hairs breadth decisions battles are often won and lost, on this occasion it was in Britains favour, but compare this to the capitulation of British forces in Singapore 1942, General Percival did not know how badly stretched the Japanese supply lines were and that had he held out for just another couple of days or less he would not have needed to march in to japanese lines with a white flag thereby sealing his fate as the architect of the most catastrophic defeat in British military history.
 
From what I've read, it was also the Battle of Britain that exposed the "terrifying" Ju-87 Stuka dive bomber as the clunky and clumsy thing it was. The RAF shot down so many of them that Goering was forced to pull them out of the Battle of Britain in short order. Deprived of their shock value, they were basically big fat targets (and deathtraps for their German crews). They were revived for Barbarossa the following year, but by then their aura of invincibility had been shattered.
 
You'll recall that when the USAAF began building up in the UK in 1942, the RAF turned over all of the bases that had been hammered during the BoB. Hawkinge, Manston, Lympne, to name a few. Our first task was to fill the craters and rebuild the hangers, shops and accomodation. Fortunately, that's something Americans have always been good at.

D is right about the Stuka. Worked best in its design role when the Luftwaffe had total air superiority. But it soldiered on as a tank buster until 1945.

I'll differ with Red over the Defiant. It had some initial success when German attackers mistook it for a Hurricane, and were then shot down by the turret gunner. But once they got wise to it, they massacred the Defiants. RAF withdrew them, used temporarily as a night fighter until the far superior Beaufighter came along.

Huricane wasn't a bad kite. It was tough and readily maintainable, which excused other faults. Couldn't match the performance of the Bf-109 though.

Spitfire's only real fault was short legs, but long range hadn't been a design requirement for an interceptor. No worse than the 109 in that respect, and otherwise fairly evenly matched as well.

Strelnikov
 
yeah nuetron, you might want to get your facts straight if you want to insult one of our country's greatest leaders. i'll stop there but i feel ver mad...

if it hadn't been for the RAF and the victory of the battle of britain, we would almost certainly have fallen - sooner or later.

did you know: the british made some very bad (laughable) military decisions. they dropped troops in norway in the middle of the winter without skis. and at the out break of war, when chamberlain was PM, churchill's idea of planting mines in the river rhine was turned down in case the mines "damaged german private property". instead of dropping mines, the RAF bombed berlin with pamphlets.

we're not perfect but we're good enough. 🙂
 
Err.........thanks coolman......

...for that contribution......I think.
 
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