France and Britain

[Newcastle Uni]

Ok lads....we are off to the congo! The French are deploying around 1200 troops with 200 British Engineers under the control of the EU (but ultimately Paris) to restore some normality to the congo. I was just watching an interesting debate on the issue in the House of Lords (BBC Parliament). Is this a popular issue? I would like to use this as evidence to support the fact that the French are not simply Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, as some (including Bart Simpson) would have us believe.

 

[Haltickling]

Germany , too, has deployed a contingent of 340 soldiers, mostly in logistics and medical aid. Only a small part of them will go to Africa, but across the border in Uganda.

 

[Newcastle Uni]

The British deployment is so small as to be almost insignificant. Surely it is only a political, good-will gesture from his Toniness to Chirac, coming as it does only days after the two gentlemen met. We (the British) are presumably trying to mend bridges with the French. I wish i knew more on this and other related issues. It still galls me to think that whilst Britain has the second largest navy in the world and spends some £30bn on its defences (almost double that of Germany, and easily eclipsing that spent by the French), this is only small change compared with the couple of hundred thousand million pounds spent by the americans. We, in Europe are in danger of being left behind in the dark-ages, in terms of military capacity. I have no right to talk about this issue, i am certainly not qualified to discuss this issue, but these are my views. Furthermore i am quite sure that i read somewhere that Britain and France are roughly about as rich as the richest state in america (£1.3bn to £1.2bn - although maybe these figures are incorrect or plain wrong). I love America, and admire their way of doing things. But surely it is not good for the world at large, for there to be only one major power able to exclusively pull at the strings of the world stage.

 

[qjakal]

Capitalism...

Monopolies ARE scary things, but if you're only going to have ONE superpower, I think I prefer us to Russia. As for military spending, I'd say you've just seen the beginning of a new massive surge that will be decades long in America at this point. 9/11 has reawakened that Cold War mentality that says "more and better" in every phase of military operations is the only acceptable criteria. There's several new technologies about to come off the drawing boards(in military terms that's about a 7-10 year period) that will move the ability of the average infantryman into a new level of effectiveness. Combined with the ongoing air program, I think we're just scratching our potential. Computer advances that were created by the demands of the Gulf War and Afghanistan (sand/wind/cloud cover/mountains/tunnels) are being refined and expanded to prepare for future inhospitable battlegrounds. Obviously research into protection against bio/chem weapons is ramping up as well.

Does this bode ill for the world? I'd like to guarantee that it doesn't, but I'm among the group that's still amazed that we launched a proactive strike against Iraq...completely unheard of for pre-9/11 America. Watch the next election closely, for the direction we'll be taking will be obvious at that point. Meanwhile, keep the EU concept in mind as an option to a single nation superpower..it has the potential to become VERY influential if it could jyst get past the current bogged down stage of inaction....

My 2 cents. Q

 

[red indian]

A couple of years ago............

The French army staged a major exersise, designed as a total shakedown to test its general level of effectiveness. They cancelled it because it was raining. Yes thats what I said, they cancelled it because it was RAINING!!!!

I would much rather team up with the German army, I dont think they stop when it rains.


You are quite wrong Newky regarding the nature of the Brit deployment in the congo, the only reason the French would tolerate our presence is becuase they need us. Its important to remember that the U.K. is the only full time professional army in western europe. Its skills in all aspects of soldiering are widely sought after by countries all over the world. Sandhurst is one of the worlds leading military academies,many countries send prospective subalterns over here to get a first class military education. So i assure you the French would not have us over there if they could possibly do without us!



Not sure where you are going with your bit about europe being behind in armament technology, are you advocating an arms race with the U.S.??!! Europes reluctance to engage at anything like a serious level regarding defence technology and armies is fairly easy to explain i would have thought.

Your point aboutthe U.S. defence budget is a little confused their spending is high but is still only a fraction of their GDP wich of course is massive compared to the rest of the world.Having said that, i think a lot of their military capacity is surpluss to requirements even allowing for any number of possible deployments, but its all tangled up with employment and therefore politics. Scrapping two or three spare aircraft carriers is not likely to appear on any Presidents manifesto!

The trouble with being the worlds only super power is a little different to the way you put it. If they intervene anywere on the globe they generally come in for critisism from at least half the worlds governments, but if they stay out, they are accused of being isolationist, selfish, and generally not pulling their weight on the world scene. So no wonder they sometimes get a little exsasperated with the likes of France and Germany.

 

[Dave2112]

You're dead-on about that, Injun. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. I don't see where it really needs to be a competition or even a comparison. It's apples and oranges. The US is in a position to be a leading military force. That's the way it is. Should it be used at every possible opportunity? Of course not. But as I've said before, a perfect world would have those who are capable doing what they are best suited for.

And you're also right about the status of the British armed forces. Nice to have you lads around to team up with...😎

(Oh, and by the way Newcastle....it was Groudskeeper Willie who referred to the French as Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys, not Bart..)

 

[berlinerbaer]

>>the only reason the French would tolerate our presence is becuase they need us. Its important to remember that the U.K. is the only full time professional army in western europe<<

Red Indian, I don't know if the French army is so much less effective than the British, they are operating in many former colonies aswell. But the reason why Chirac wants the Brits and Germans on board is maybe that he wants to demonstrate Bush that Europe is able to act, independent of NATO, and without US interference. (I don't say this demonstration is appropriate, but I think it is Chirac's motivation)

>>Your point about the U.S. defence budget is a little confused their spending is high but is still only a fraction of their GDP wich of course is massive compared to the rest of the world.<<

The gap in military spending between Western Europe and US is the choice of the European countries. The combined GDP of the 15 members of EU is presently higher than that of the US, so if they were willing to spend as much as the Pentagon, they would be able to do so.

 

[BigJim]

And they'd probably be deeper than the three trillion dollars in debt, that the US is too.

The US defence spending is more than double every other nation in NATO combined, and that doesn't include the space program.

 

[red indian]

Berlingeezer.............

........Europe is NOT able to act as you may have noticed of late! who acted in Europe? er.........let me see.....The Brits.

I am quite sure that as you say Europe has made its own choice regarding armaments......er.......I think thats what I said.


You may be right about the GDP of the EU being higher, I really dont know....but........er........thats NOT what I said. I said it was large compared to the rest of the world.

Why do I bother???!!!

 

[avethibaltus]

Defense spending?

"The US defence spending is more than double every other nation in NATO combined, and that doesn't include the space program."

Have to disagree with you on this one Big Jim. Anyone who calls the US output for military equipment and technology "defense spending" needs to go and look up the word defense. The Yanks are putting out so much money because they have an offensive force capable of conducting full blown offensive operations on at least two fronts simultaneously. (Just how many aircraft carriers, SSBN's, or stealth bombers does one need to **defend** the homeland?)

There is no argument that the Europeans aren't putting in their fair share but a comparison of "defense spending" along these lines is simply incorrect.

How many Brits consider themselves Europeans these days? None I ever spoke with. Geographically and inevitably they may be but that still has to sink into the heads of 95% of the population, IHMO.

 

[BigJim]

Ave, I thought everyone was aware that "defence budget" was politically correct talk for "the amount of money we spend on blowing the shit out of people we get pissed off with".

That's why the old British Ministry For War, became the Ministry of Defence.

 

[Haltickling]

Orwellian "Newspeak"... 🙄

 

[BigJim]

Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaaaaaaddddddd.

 

[avethibaltus]

10-4 Sir, I believe that most people **know** that but I'm not really sure they **realize** it - sounds stupid but I think it is true.

On the other hand, I would stick my neck out and say that at least Germany had a real defense budget, which is why they are having so much trouble dealing with the requirements of the new world order which is being forced down their throats. Nice defensive divisions without the transportation assets needed to move them across borders in strength. No American would ever do such a thing!

 

[BigJim]

The New Order is being forced down everyone's throats right now Ave. In America it's just as strong as anywhere. If you find that hard to believe, go to Denver airport where's there's aplaque that says "Regulated By The New World Airport Authority" or somesuch. Problem with that litle wasname is, there's no such thing.

*Omen music plays in background*

 

[Marauder]

Hey, the U.S. are enjoying their 5 minutes of fame...

(dodging rotten fruit)

 

[qjakal]

Well....

In geological terms that's at LEAST a few millenia, yes? 😉 Q

 

[Dragon321]

so....

we have on the agenda: an increase in the blowing up shit budget, supersoldiers packing serious heat, a new world order (didnt some german guy say something about that?😕 ), rhe introduction of the great idea of proactive defensive strikes, the global economy becoming a context for war (probably an old concept)....

wake me up and tell me this isnt happening!!!!!!!!!🙁

 

[Marauder]

WAKE UP!!! None of this is happening! And even if it were, the care-bears would rescue us. Now bend over already, this dream is a wet one.