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live from baghdad

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have you folks seen the live video feeds from baghdad this morning?
seems the u.s. was right after all, the iraqi civilians are dancing in the streets! gee, maybe america is still for freedom, and not just a bunch of oil theives after all.
on another news item; seems those fedaeen sadam fighters aren't even iraqis at all! they are from jordon, saudi arabia, seria, egypt.
seems like everyone but the iraqi's want to fight for sadam, lol. maybe that's cause the iraqi's know something the others don't!
steve
 
Yeah, they showed some of that yesterday as well. They also showed some Iraqi men demonstrating what they'd experienced in the torture chambers...just for questioning Saddass's leadership. I believe we may have gone in there for the wrong reasons the first time. But, this time, at least we're staying long enough to finish the job. If we stick it out and don't desert them again, we may have a good friend in the Iraqi people down the road. I just hope we don't mess it up by mishandling the turnover of power.

Ann
 
It's great that Saddam's a gonner, but the real problems are just beginning. In Iraq there are Shi'it muslims, Sunnic muslims AND Kurds living, and no group can rule over eachother without severe fighting. Furthermore, Turkey has stated it will invade Kurdistan once it's formed, because it fears it'll lose control over it's own opressed Kurds.
 
Sadistictickler said:
It's great that Saddam's a gonner, but the real problems are just beginning. In Iraq there are Shi'it muslims, Sunnic muslims AND Kurds living, and no group can rule over eachother without severe fighting. Furthermore, Turkey has stated it will invade Kurdistan once it's formed, because it fears it'll lose control over it's own opressed Kurds.

what, no "gee, sorry i guess i was wrong"?
'sall right, i knew none of the anti-war crowd would have the guts to appologise.
as to your above worry about the upcomming problems, remember it took america 6 years (or 8) to come up with the constitution, after the british were defeated! i am hopfull that in the modern world of communication, they get their acts together faster than we did, lol!
here's a thought, why not a democracy, where all religions are respected, and tolerated?! naw forget it, the french wouldn't approve, that would be too much like america to them.
steve
 
and one more thing: the US screwed up Afghanistan already, the Taliban has made a comeback and the country is falling apart once again. I just hope the US don't fuck up Iraq too

and I am still convinced that war wasn't the right way of getting rid of Saddam.
 
areenactor said:
here's a thought, why not a democracy, where all religions are respected, and tolerated?! naw forget it, the french wouldn't approve, that would be too much like america to them.
steve

Things don't work the Utopian way in the Arab countries. That's a factor with which you just have to work, for there's no chance that there will be an improvement on that issue.
 
Bush Jugend

Judging by the finess that President Rove and his sidekick have shown in dealing with international affairs thus far, it will indeed be interesting to see what the New World Order brings to the middle east. Those of you with elementary school aged children should start teaching them the difference between quick time and double time, how to zero an automatic weapon, and how to eat MREs because those are definitely skills they are going to need later in life. Since we seem to be doing things just like our former enemies, maybe we could form groups to teach the kids these important skills and call them "Bush Youth"?
 
So it seems that the US have won this war. Big deal, no serious person has ever doubted that. But will they win the peace as well?

And since when does the end justify the means? Since when does success in violating a law (in this case International Law) nullify the guilt? Doesn't it really prove the old Neandertal law: The biggest stick rules the hill?

Okay, the Iraqis are happy to get rid of Saddam, who was a criminal (possibly still is). Does that mean they will be happy about an American occupation? Will they accept an American puppet government, formed by exile Iraqis who have been away for 20, 30 years?

Doesn't the elimination of a common enemy (Saddam) usually mean that all the rivalling parties (Shiites, Sunni, Kurds) will take up their internal struggle with new vigor? Real democracy means one man, one vote. In this case the Shiites will have the majority. Is that what the US wants? A mullah? When's the next Iraq war due? When is it the next country's turn to get bombed?

I won't go as far with my predictions as SadisticTickler, but I'm afraid that the main financial burden will weigh heavy on the average American taxpayer. The big guys in the oil and weapon industry will be on the profit side, no doubt. And Bush is the right president for THEM!
 
all of those happy people in baghdad is justifacation enough for this war. Sometimes military action is the only way.
 
Originally posted by Haltickling (most deleted)
So it seems that the US have won this war. Big deal, no serious person has ever doubted that.

Oh really?

Since you likely don't watch American television, let me be the one to inform you that all the networks here except Fox (that is, ABC, CBS, NBC/MSNBC, and CNN) were using the Q-word--quagmire. Using it repeatedly, and saying that the President would have to withdraw when the public got tired of being in a quagmire.

(People that I take less seriously went further. Campus leftists and loudmouth activist demonstrators were predicting thousands or tens of thousands of American casualties, followed by an ignominious withdrawal.)

PS It is my belief that the means were both legal and moral. We will have to agree to disagree about that.
 
Well said, Milagros.

"Since when does the end justify the means?"

Since the "end" is an end to oppression, rape, murder, torture, propaganda, gassing, stealing, lying, threats, ethnic cleansing and things you have the luxury of ignoring.

Do you honestly think that the people of Iraq give a shit how this started? Go on, tell them that this was wrong. We're sorry, but we can't politically justify your liberation to everyone's satisfaction, so we'll turn the country back over to a dictator.

And I don't consider this an American occupation. First off, there's more than just America over there. European nations (Spain, Poland and England) have shed thier blood for another's freedom, as have the Australians. Why such a need to single out the US for something supported by many? Second, this isn't an "occupation" in the dark, foreboding, cue-the-music way you'd like it to be thought of. I know that you'll never believe this, but we're not after anything that Iraq has. We don't need to prove it to anyone, either. The truth will come out as time goes on. A truth that can't be wished away because it's inconvenient.

One person on his knees, crying over his freedom, thanking the heavens that he doesn't have to die for speaking his mind...this justifies the means.
 
Dave2112 said:
"Since when does the end justify the means?"

Since the "end" is an end to oppression, rape, murder, torture, propaganda, gassing, stealing, lying, threats, ethnic cleansing and things you have the luxury of ignoring.

Do you honestly think that the people of Iraq give a shit how this started? Go on, tell them that this was wrong. We're sorry, but we can't politically justify your liberation to everyone's satisfaction, so we'll turn the country back over to a dictator.

One person on his knees, crying over his freedom, thanking the heavens that he doesn't have to die for speaking his mind...this justifies the means.
Dave, do you honestly think that any Iraqi who has lost his children or his parents in the bombings is giving a shit about democracy or “Pax Americana”? Have you seen the interview with the father who has lost his wife and 3 of his 4 children in a US bomb attack? Have you seen the horribly mutilated and maimed kids who survived the US cluster bomb on a civilian village 50 miles south of Baghdad? Oh, probably there actually were some combatants in that village, but cluster bombs on the whole village? So much about justification…

Such things are never shown on American TV, for a good reason. Brainwashing tends to avoid bad pictures, and propaganda doesn’t show the other side of the coin. In contrary to what milagros thinks, we have CNN here 24/7, and most other channels bring coverage of NBC and CBS (live and uncommented, just translated simultaneously), and I’ve yet to see any critical reports there. How many European or Arabian channels do you watch to get a balanced view? I’m not saying that German or French TV are unbiased, but at least we can see the American view as well.
And I don't consider this an American occupation. First off, there's more than just America over there. European nations (Spain, Poland and England) have shed thier blood for another's freedom, as have the Australians. Why such a need to single out the US for something supported by many? Second, this isn't an "occupation" in the dark, foreboding, cue-the-music way you'd like it to be thought of. I know that you'll never believe this, but we're not after anything that Iraq has. We don't need to prove it to anyone, either. The truth will come out as time goes on. A truth that can't be wished away because it's inconvenient.
Certainly the Americans don’t see it as an occupation, and as I said: the Iraqis are thankful to see the dictator removed. I am just questioning the Bush government motives, and the doubtful extent of gratitude from a people who was brought up to hate America and who was attacked by them twice. Most of the Arab/Persian population in the region WILL see it as US occupation, only comparable to ‘Israeli occupation of Palestine’. How will they react? Intifada II ? More terrorists? It certainly doesn’t matter how you or I think about it, but it matters how the people there see it.

Don’t misunderstand me, Dave, this is no rant against Americans. I just happen to care about America, as a matter of fact. And I happen to care for the rest of the world, too, which certainly can’t be said for all pro-US comments here or on US TV. I still think that the Bush government grossly misjudges the long range consequences of their actions, that’s what my questions were aimed at.
 
Hal, I don't think you are being anti-American in your sentiments. I can understand where you're coming from. However, please don't think that any of us over here, including the government, thinks that this is over, or that there will be no long-term consequesnces.

Yes, civilians died during this liberation. Civilians have died in every single liberation ever undertaken. Not to sound callous (because I'm really not), but that is the unfortunate nature of conflict. You simply cannot eschew a responsibility to others because it might harm those in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know how that sounds, but I don't mean it that way. I personally consider every Iraqi civilian killed to be as much of a hero as those doing the fighting.

There is no perfect solution. Diplomacy will not work with terrorists and despots. And no, war isn't the perfect solution either. I've said this before and I'll say it again...by my philosophy (and only mine, I don't expect others to agree, they don't have to)...the freedom of a human being in a civilized society outwieghs political concern. Politics change, rules change, and even international law changes. Human rights do not. The way we percieve and interpret them might, but the basic freedoms that every single human being should enjoy are paramount to society.

As far as long-term consequences...is that what you'd like to see? (I don't mean you personally, just being general). Would a horrible outcome satisfy people's need to be vindicated in thier beliefs? Is it that important. Agree with the politics or not, why can't we simply be joyful for a freed people and take a positive outlook on possible outcomes? Yes, things could go sour. But they could also be less bleak than you think. Why base the future on the past? It's a new world, as this war has proven in several ways. We have got to start thinking in a new way. There are plenty of possible good outcomes. Sure, they will take some considerable time, but I can't live my life thinking doom and gloom. A good thing was done. No matter how it got there...a good thing was done. We move on and hope we can continue the good things.

I really do understand your position, even though I don't agree with some of it. But that's what the world is about.

And yes, we saw the carnage of the cluster-bomb attacks, and our own people have questioned it's use. Even some of our own military. Contrary to popular belief, we see the bad with the good. We don't rely on war propaganda. Horrible mistakes were made, as in any armed conflict. No amount of regret or sorrow will ever bring those innocent people back...but failing to do something will never save the next one, or hundred, or thousand who were in line to die at the whim of a psychopath.

It wasn't perfect, but war isn't. The world saw what we saw, it wasn't only American journalists over there, and we can dispel with the Big Brother myth. If we only wanted oil or dominance or property, we could have carpet-bombed the cities in two days. Even the enemy were using tactics designed to play on our troops' humanitarian nature. Even they knew that we weren't there to arbitrarily kill civilians to achieve our goals.
 
an answer for hal.

hal, did you see al jazer, and abudabi t.v., reporting untill yesterday that the american, and british news broad casts about the war were all staged? in hollywood no less!
according to them, and the iraqi vise president, and minister of information, the american/anglo forces were being soundly defeated. now who was spreading lies and propoganda? my point is where did you see a report that we droped a cluster bomb on a village? i have been in the military, and i can tell you for a fact, that cluster bombs are used on tank formations, and large troop consentrations, and air fields loaded with planes, not on small villages! i think you are buying into anti-america, arab propoganda. why, cause you want to believe it!that way you can hold your anti-american/bush feelings close, and dear, w/o feeling foolish now that we are proving we were right.
steve
 
Although I don't have every minor detail available right now, there was an incident involving a cluster bomb in which civilians were killed. To the best of my memory, the target was thought to be a bunker or tank formation housing, or something like that. I don't claim to have all the knowledge on this, but it did happen. An unfortunate accident, and I'm sure that all of the details are on a news site somewhere.

My arguement still stands, just trying to be fair and informed.
 
*sigh*
Random thoughts.

I cried watching tv yesterday.
Watching joyful people.
No matter whether we've handled it all "correctly" or not, there are people in Iraq now who may very well have a view of the world much differently than they did only a few months ago. With cities still heavy in gunfire, the people (including children) were celebrating in the streets. How telling is that?

Yes, the families of innocents that died are grieving. On the same hand, there are thousands breathing a sigh of relief that those people were lost for a REASON...one beyond the fact that their "ruler" decided they should die in order to inflate his ego. It baffles me that people are arguing the death of innocents with an outcome such as one we're hoping to see (and had a glance of already) yet these same people are not reflecting on the thousands who died before. What about those innocents?

Did you see the "palaces?" A degree of opulance well beyond any I've ever set eyes on. It seems there were more things of value in one room of one of Saddam's homes than even in some whole villages or cities in Iraq. Things in that country are so far off base, that I wonder how the people survive. It reeks of museums full of artwork stolen from Jewish families before the millions of them were murdered by a man whom the world let have too much time.

I still sit back and wonder with a heavy heart what the Germans, French and other naysayers would have done differently. Sure, the primary goals were to seek out wmd's and to initiate a regime change. If the wmds were the only goal, time for more inspections would have been perfect. HOWEVER, I wonder how many more coffins full of decomposed bodies would have come to pass while the inspectors were making use of the time that they wanted to give them. How many more torture chambers would have been put to use? How many more young women would have been brutally raped? Do these things not count? How many more innocents would have died at the hands of Hussein during the time that he was "complying with the UN." It was cat and mouse to me. Time would not have changed the things that this invasion changed. Call it the setting for US colonialism, call it a liberation with the only thing American left in the end being American blood...call it whatever makes you feel best at the end of the day. The world learned a hard lesson 60 years ago about tyrants and their behavior. Odd to me that some countries forgot so soon.nnn

Just tell me what other choice would have been better?

No one is pretending that horrible things didn't happen during the last month. No one assumes the US is perfect. I think we DO however assume that we're doing the best we know how to do given the situation.

Until someone can show me a better alternative...I'll just be happy for the positive outcomes, and hope for the best for the future. It's all we can do.

Time for me to distance myself from these threads again. I read too many things that make me lose respect for people I think I like.

Joby, 🙁
 
Um...

Well, it seems that us "Naysayers" and "Peaceniks" were wrong all along. Maybe an apology is in order. From the beginning, our point always was that the war wouldn't be won quickly - err, sorry, well, I'm not sure what exactly we were saying, but our sentiments are easily reduced to a burning rubble by watching coverage of people celebrating their generous saviors - um.

You do realize that, while it's all nifty to have Iraqi people rushing the GI's for congratulations and destroying Saddam's effigies, the crisis is by no means over. Also, the goals of the war (unfathomable as the might have been) have not been reached yet. To get me to say "I was wrong and you were right", the following events will have to come to pass:
1) Discovery and destruction of the obscure Weapons of Mass Destruction.
2) Founding of a stable Iraqi government.
3) Conclusive proof of cooperation between Iraq and the international terrorists.
4) Ensuring that the Iraqi oil reserves are exploited by the Iraqi people.
These are the points used to justify the invasion that I can think of the top of my head. Freeing people from their oppressors was not the reason for this war - That's PROPAGANDA! If you think that way, hello? That means you caused these people to suffer between GW1 and GW2. Saying that the freedom of the people was justification for the invasion lays the death of EVERY PERSON IN ANY DICTATORSHIP ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET squarely on the U.S.'s shoulders. You're not doinf anything in Africa, for example. I'm not saying you should - but don't use "We freed them from the monster and thus this war was right" as an argument. It holds no validity and plays solely on emotions to cover up the fact that the objectives that were used to justify the war were a) unclear and b) not yet met.
 
a question for maruader

sir, i see you are from germany, but you are using a french flag at the bottom of your posts. may i ask why, a french flag, and not a german one?

just to clear up a point. the u.s. government stated one of it's goals in iraq, was to liberate the iraqi people.
my support of this war was not based on this though. my support was soley based of preserving the safty of america. the fact that we really are liberating the iraqi people from a tyrant, is just frosting on the cake.

steve
 
I still don't see why the US governement threats the Irani and Syrian governements, and the North-Korean one too; the people in Iran seem to be perfectly happy, as are the Syrian people.
 
Sadistictickler said:
I still don't see why the US governement threats the Irani and Syrian governements, and the North-Korean one too; the people in Iran seem to be perfectly happy, as are the Syrian people.

this thread, which was started by me, is about iraq, and the war there. if you wish to doscuss the syerians, and their perfidity, feel free to start your own thread!
thank you for your co-operation.
steve
 
Hey guys, I think you are overlooking something which we may have just stumbled onto here. This could also be a way for the US to win back some of those lost points:

Let's identify all of the countries where the people are unhappy and invade them, which will of course make all the people happy again! Everybody loves to see heavily armed soldiers patrolling the streets and armored vehicles on every street corner - at least that's what my friends from Northern Ireland and Palestine tell me.

We could try this all over the place since we seem to have enough soldiers to go around. If we run out of soldiers, we could do it like our former enemies and simply change the recruitment age, forming new units which we might call "Fedayim George" or "George's Storm".

This would also keep the Republicans in office for at least 3 terms, cause a general rush on the churches to support the right wing christian conservatives, and improve the economic outlook of several of our largest corporations. Maybe we'd lose a young Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, or Nelson Mandela in the process but hey, that's the cost of doing business - excuse me, I meant that's the cost of a just and moral war.
 
Again,
These same old responses.
:sowrong: :sowrong:

I'm in bit of a pissy fucking mood right now, so pardon if this post is a bit more on the rude side than what I normally post.

NK amd Iraq are two different situations. NK is far beyond the point of no return, where as Iraq was a fledgling in the WMD game. That alone, seems reason for a different plan of action if you were to ask me. BUT...like the rest of the uneducated people here who spend more time on a tickling site than making national policies, I'm not privey to what makes foreign policies work all over the globe.To start, I'm wondering what the hell the rest of the world is doing in regard to NK anyway? It's like they are sitting on their collective asses like they did with Iraq just waiting for the US to go on and make some move toward NK that will eventually be criticized as well. *shrug* I mean....share with me some info on that, would ya? I hear alot of of comparison,but what's happening in your homes that we aren't doing now to address the issue? OR...is it no biggie to anyone else?

I'm genuinely curious. AND since you all know that we Americans only hear what our government wants us to hear, they are obviously hiding us from the turth regarding NK. I'd love to be enlightened by some wise European on the subject. Anyone here have any real experience with the government? I mean, besides having pals all over the world? I have that too...but those friendships do not make me an authority on world affairs. I'm looking for facts. Please share!

Of course, the fact that Iraq is a country led by a man who tends to hate America, likes rhetoric about holy wars against America, and well, you know the drill. THAT fact does play a role who gets whapped with the big mean American stick first. 🙄 Pre-9/11 it didn't, but times are different now. Just like postWWII Germany and Japan were different.

Now, of COURSE oil is a reason. Not the only reason though. I suppose when you're the dictator's favorite pet, you're not to worried about that sort of thing. I'd just once like to hear someone on the other side acknowledge the possibility that there is some good coming from this, as easily as I'm willing to say that there is obvious horror. But, it's not going to happen is it? It's far to easy to be sarcastic and say the "few" "unimportant" "so-called-victories" of humanitarian concern don't matter and don't count since that wasn't the only reason for going in.

It's so easy to say, "You're wrong." It's harder to say, "I think you're wrong about some things, but I give you credit where credit is due." Oops, sorry. Nothing good of MERIT has happened, right? It's been three long weeks! How dare we not have answers when we've had ever so much time! 😕 Do try to gather from that sarcasm that we Americans, British, Spanish, Australian, Polish and others are just trying to find some hope in a bad situation that is obviously not going to end in only three weeks with a pallette of information for the world community to inspect. WE ARE LOOKING FOR SOME GOOD is all. Why do so many refuse that? grrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Yes, go on over to Iraq and ask a few folks what they think. It's easy to brush off the importance of the "propoganda" from your reclining chair. Go turn on a CD, light up a cigarette, go outside and yell horrible things about your county's leaders, or hey, if you're a chick, go outside and act like you're allowed to be a human being maybe, play a video game or something really hard like that, then when you're rested come back and think up a few more reasons that this coalition's actions are completely and totally wrong.

God, it's like the people yelling "Baby Killers!" at Vietnam vets later becoming abortion rights activist. It's just too much irony for me.

Joby....kicking her own ass for coming back to this thread when she swore she wouildn't! :sowrong:
 
You are the greatest Joby :redheart:

You do not negotiate with evil or try to strike deals with it. You look in the straight in the face and spit in its eye or drop several bunker busters on it. Whatever works.

We have all fooled ourselves (including me)the world was never divided Arab vs Jew, or Black vs. White, European vs American or whatever other groups you like. It has always been divided into good vs. evil and the time has come to choose. Just my opinion though. Many of which I have stated in one form or another on other threads but I felt were worth repeating here.😀
 
*bowing to joby*

nice rant dear lady!

as far a n.k. goes; america has been saying all along that it is a world issue, and he wants all of n.k.'s neighbors in on the party.

yesterday, or the day before, china said it's america's problem, and we better get going quick! lol. the n.k.'s don't have anything that can reach us yet, but they got plenty to reach china! but no , it's america's problem, lol.

i hope president bush sticks to his guns, and waits for international help on this one.

as far as wmd evidence in iraq; iraqi higher ranking soldiers are saying(as reported on fox) that almost all the wmd stuff was trucked out to syria just befroe the war started. so it looks like we won't find as much as we hoped.
steve
 
Indeed, NK is totally different. Although NK has missiles that can reach China, they will never shoot at China for it's its ally. Japan however, is seriously threatend by NK. The thing is, militairy action will result in a bloodbath. Furthermore, the Bush Administration policy towards the NK governement supports NK-militairists in their view. However, seeing the fact that the current dictator isn't half of what his father was, there has been a positive development towards a democracy, however, it's very small. The only way to get rid of NK, is to leave it alone and let it solve it's self-made problem. Communism isn't something you wipe out with war, it's a proces that destroys itself eventually. Like the USSR...
 
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