Dave2112
Level of Cherry Feather
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2001
- Messages
- 10,293
- Points
- 0
First off, let me start by saying that what I have to share comes not as a Moderator, but as a fellow human being and TMF member. I have stayed out of this discussion for a long time for a number of reasons, some personal, some related to my position here...so let's drop that altogether.
There's been a lot of backlash over this, and a lot of infighting. This is a source of disgust that has kept me from commenting on anything. There's nothing to be gained by mudslinging and hurling personal, ugly and sometimes racist insults at each other based solely on our opinions or nationalities. There's one thing that even loosely-organized terrorist units know will help their cause, one of the oldest military strategies...if you can't defeat your enemy, get them to fight each other.
In this scenario, the terrorists and others who hate us have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
My stand on this is not very cut-and dried. I am support of this action, but very grudgingly. This is no source of pride for me, no call for ass-kicking, but a support born of neccessity. I feel that this needs to be done, although it could have been accomplished long ago and in a different way. It would have been nice to have a world coalition going into this, but it is not to be. I've made a few statements that I regret having made, but I guess even one such as myself is not above lashing out occasionally out of anger, fear, concern or any other number of reasons. I have three close friends and two close family members serving over there, so it's kinda personal. I don't know if these guys are coming home in uniform or in a box. I know that many of you out there are in the same boat, so you know what I'm talking about.
One thing I would like to do is apologize openly to anyone I may have inadvertantly offended when saying the few things I have said about this. No, I don't agree with some of the stands taken by a few European governments (and let me stress governments, not citizens)...but these are sovereign nations with thier own opinions that they are entitled to. As a human being, I'm making an open call to stop the Europe-bashing. Please. And let's add to that the American-bashing as well. What can we possibly hope to accomplish by throwing this crap at each other?
And while we're at it, I'd love to see these "we did this for you, you owe us" sort of posts come to an eventual halt. None of it has one tiny bit of bearing on the events unfolding. We've all helped each other out in the history of our planet. No one owes us anything. Does the outcome of WWII really matter now? Are Vietnam, Serbia, Grenada, Korea or any other conflict of great importance to the outcome of this one? Do we support other nations in time of need out of a desire for future restitution? That doesn't sound like the America that I live in and support. We do it out of kindness and humanity. Isn't that the way we claim to be? For all of the talk about France, Germany, Russia and others...we cannot eschew friendship now just because it's convenient or because we're angry. For all of the diplomatic differences...if something horrible were to happen in downtown Paris tomorrow, I can assure you that we'll be there lending whatever helping hand we can. These people are still our allies, and more importantly, our friends.
On the other side, let's dispel this notion that Americans are fat, lazy sycophants who pack Big Macs into thier colons and count thier ill-gotten cash every day. I don't know about anyone else, but my street ain't paved with gold....just the same crappy, pot-hole ridden asphalt that covers the streets of Paris, Berlin, London and every other city. When Europeans bash America, they are bashing a lot of there own people. We're a country made up of people from everywhere. The people you sling mud at are Germans, French, British, Irish, Israeli and countless others living under one tent and one flag. We're made up of your people.
On to another point...who has who's weapons and who trained who. Who gives a shit? Does it really matter? It's funny how most of these argumentative threads are rarely on the topic of the philosophy of war or the humanity of war, but a laundry list of names, makes, models and sources of weapons. It matters little where they came from. Weapons have and will always fall into the hands of those who need them least, or those who will use them for ill. That's the way the species is, not the way any certain government plans their future.
The reality of war is death. Plain and simple. Ours, thiers, everyone's. If one of my relatives comes home with a folded flag on his casket, I'm not going to give one flying fig who manufactured the bullet or grenade that put him there.
I haven't commented much on this due to personal reasons, some stated above, some that will remain mine to contemplate. I live with this every day, as we all do to one extent or another. As most of you know, I run a fueling station at the busiest Canadian border-crossing in North America. Between Customs, Border Patrol, the National Guard, INS and a host of other American and Canadian government agencies running around...things have been tense. My place is a melting pot of nationalities and immigrants, and there have been some scary moments. Just a few weeks ago, I had a van full of Afghans ask if they could park it overnight in my lot, and they were insistant that it be parked close to the building. Of course, I declined the arrangement, but have wondered ever since what the intentions actually were. I've felt less and less safe as the days have passed and always wonder if tonight is the night that someone decides to make a statement by hitting this jam-packed border-crossing. Terrorists don't just hit military targets, as we know all too well. My point is that I'm faced with this, up close and personal every night. I can't count the times that one agency or another has come into my place to extract a group who has snuck across the border. It's always on my mind that I may have come "this close", y'know? It's affecting us all.
So let's stop the crap, ok? We can disagree without becoming animals. We can wage war without having to take pride in the destruction itself. Just because it's neccesary (a point that is still arguable), doesn't mean it's fun. And just because others may not agree, we don't have to become exactly what many think we are by doing exactly what they say we do. If we want the world to continue thinking that we're all redneck war-mongers...just keep acting the part.
In closing, this will be the last thing I say on this topic, as it's too close and personal on a number of levels for me to keep getting involved in. I would request that this thread not be hijacked by the same old "us vs. them" or some such nonsense posts. There are plenty of other places here to put these sentiments. I simply ask respectfully that they not rear up here. I am trying to be as open and honest as possible and am spilling a lot of things I never wanted to, but felt I must. I ask as member of the community that it not be ruined by childish remarks.
Agree or disagree, let's at least be on the same side in praying for the safety of our troops (who didn't have the liberty of debating a side) and the civilians of Iraq (who don't have the liberty of voicing an opinion). In the best possible outcome, few of our boys will die, most of Iraq's military will give up or defect (which apparently is already happening) and this can go off with a minimum of unneccessary destruction and loss of life. When it's over, I make a personal plea that even though some have voiced loudly against this, that they help out in rebuilding a real government in Iraq. Don't abstain out of hatred for us, but for the good of a people that have lived under tyranny and horror that you will never have to know for far too long.
Peace, Love, Patience and may God be with us all.
There's been a lot of backlash over this, and a lot of infighting. This is a source of disgust that has kept me from commenting on anything. There's nothing to be gained by mudslinging and hurling personal, ugly and sometimes racist insults at each other based solely on our opinions or nationalities. There's one thing that even loosely-organized terrorist units know will help their cause, one of the oldest military strategies...if you can't defeat your enemy, get them to fight each other.
In this scenario, the terrorists and others who hate us have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
My stand on this is not very cut-and dried. I am support of this action, but very grudgingly. This is no source of pride for me, no call for ass-kicking, but a support born of neccessity. I feel that this needs to be done, although it could have been accomplished long ago and in a different way. It would have been nice to have a world coalition going into this, but it is not to be. I've made a few statements that I regret having made, but I guess even one such as myself is not above lashing out occasionally out of anger, fear, concern or any other number of reasons. I have three close friends and two close family members serving over there, so it's kinda personal. I don't know if these guys are coming home in uniform or in a box. I know that many of you out there are in the same boat, so you know what I'm talking about.
One thing I would like to do is apologize openly to anyone I may have inadvertantly offended when saying the few things I have said about this. No, I don't agree with some of the stands taken by a few European governments (and let me stress governments, not citizens)...but these are sovereign nations with thier own opinions that they are entitled to. As a human being, I'm making an open call to stop the Europe-bashing. Please. And let's add to that the American-bashing as well. What can we possibly hope to accomplish by throwing this crap at each other?
And while we're at it, I'd love to see these "we did this for you, you owe us" sort of posts come to an eventual halt. None of it has one tiny bit of bearing on the events unfolding. We've all helped each other out in the history of our planet. No one owes us anything. Does the outcome of WWII really matter now? Are Vietnam, Serbia, Grenada, Korea or any other conflict of great importance to the outcome of this one? Do we support other nations in time of need out of a desire for future restitution? That doesn't sound like the America that I live in and support. We do it out of kindness and humanity. Isn't that the way we claim to be? For all of the talk about France, Germany, Russia and others...we cannot eschew friendship now just because it's convenient or because we're angry. For all of the diplomatic differences...if something horrible were to happen in downtown Paris tomorrow, I can assure you that we'll be there lending whatever helping hand we can. These people are still our allies, and more importantly, our friends.
On the other side, let's dispel this notion that Americans are fat, lazy sycophants who pack Big Macs into thier colons and count thier ill-gotten cash every day. I don't know about anyone else, but my street ain't paved with gold....just the same crappy, pot-hole ridden asphalt that covers the streets of Paris, Berlin, London and every other city. When Europeans bash America, they are bashing a lot of there own people. We're a country made up of people from everywhere. The people you sling mud at are Germans, French, British, Irish, Israeli and countless others living under one tent and one flag. We're made up of your people.
On to another point...who has who's weapons and who trained who. Who gives a shit? Does it really matter? It's funny how most of these argumentative threads are rarely on the topic of the philosophy of war or the humanity of war, but a laundry list of names, makes, models and sources of weapons. It matters little where they came from. Weapons have and will always fall into the hands of those who need them least, or those who will use them for ill. That's the way the species is, not the way any certain government plans their future.
The reality of war is death. Plain and simple. Ours, thiers, everyone's. If one of my relatives comes home with a folded flag on his casket, I'm not going to give one flying fig who manufactured the bullet or grenade that put him there.
I haven't commented much on this due to personal reasons, some stated above, some that will remain mine to contemplate. I live with this every day, as we all do to one extent or another. As most of you know, I run a fueling station at the busiest Canadian border-crossing in North America. Between Customs, Border Patrol, the National Guard, INS and a host of other American and Canadian government agencies running around...things have been tense. My place is a melting pot of nationalities and immigrants, and there have been some scary moments. Just a few weeks ago, I had a van full of Afghans ask if they could park it overnight in my lot, and they were insistant that it be parked close to the building. Of course, I declined the arrangement, but have wondered ever since what the intentions actually were. I've felt less and less safe as the days have passed and always wonder if tonight is the night that someone decides to make a statement by hitting this jam-packed border-crossing. Terrorists don't just hit military targets, as we know all too well. My point is that I'm faced with this, up close and personal every night. I can't count the times that one agency or another has come into my place to extract a group who has snuck across the border. It's always on my mind that I may have come "this close", y'know? It's affecting us all.
So let's stop the crap, ok? We can disagree without becoming animals. We can wage war without having to take pride in the destruction itself. Just because it's neccesary (a point that is still arguable), doesn't mean it's fun. And just because others may not agree, we don't have to become exactly what many think we are by doing exactly what they say we do. If we want the world to continue thinking that we're all redneck war-mongers...just keep acting the part.
In closing, this will be the last thing I say on this topic, as it's too close and personal on a number of levels for me to keep getting involved in. I would request that this thread not be hijacked by the same old "us vs. them" or some such nonsense posts. There are plenty of other places here to put these sentiments. I simply ask respectfully that they not rear up here. I am trying to be as open and honest as possible and am spilling a lot of things I never wanted to, but felt I must. I ask as member of the community that it not be ruined by childish remarks.
Agree or disagree, let's at least be on the same side in praying for the safety of our troops (who didn't have the liberty of debating a side) and the civilians of Iraq (who don't have the liberty of voicing an opinion). In the best possible outcome, few of our boys will die, most of Iraq's military will give up or defect (which apparently is already happening) and this can go off with a minimum of unneccessary destruction and loss of life. When it's over, I make a personal plea that even though some have voiced loudly against this, that they help out in rebuilding a real government in Iraq. Don't abstain out of hatred for us, but for the good of a people that have lived under tyranny and horror that you will never have to know for far too long.
Peace, Love, Patience and may God be with us all.
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