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New Suggestion for TC Vids

Redmage

1st Level Black Feather
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I just watched my copy of TC's "Without Consent" for the umpteenth time, and I have a suggestion for a future video. How about "Without Consent 2", with Priscilla as the surprised and tickled victim? If you could get poor Toni back to do the honors, but after what Priscilla put her through I'd understand if she never wanted to see the folks at TC again. In any case there are any number of women who've been tortured at Priscilla's hands who'd love a chance for some pay-back I'm sure.

The only tricky bit would be getting Ms. James into bondage without her figuring out what was coming. One way might be to get her to the studio thinking she was going to do a tickle-topping shoot, then have several of her former victims ambush her, release her tickle-victim, and lock Priscilla into the stocks or cuffs in her place. At that point I'd say you can leave the camera rolling and just film a half-hour of straight tickle-torture with no safewords.

I don't know what the working relationship with Priscilla is like these days, but I think something like this would make an outstanding video. I hope you can put it together.

Scott
 
great idea

I love that video. That is always what alot of people want to see anway is the capturing part of the tickling process. I have seen that video but sadly don't own it or have a clip. If you or anyone else has a clip out there please post it and I will be very thankful.
 
There is already a video like that out. 'Dungeon of Reversal' had a former victim jump Kristen Lea and she and the current victim tortured Kristin for a decent while.
 
Yeah, but...

Of course, I wouldn't so much call it a "nonconsentual" tickling video if the ticklees are, in fact, actual models who appear as regulars in other tickling videos. I mean, obviously they get SOME kind of enjoyment out of doing it, otherwise they'd get a job somewhere else. The "Dungeon of Reversal" video was, you know, a staged kind of storyline type of deal, so it's not like that was altogether nonconsentual. The storyline made it APPEAR as such, but it wasn't actually the case.

I'm not arguing that "Without Consent" wasn't nonconsentual, I'm just saying that to ask for a non-consentual video featuring Priscilla or any other person who has appeared several times before in other tickling videos as a ticklee isn't quite a request that can honestly be fulfilled. Sure, they can write storylines in which, say, a 'tickle slave' escapes and manages to restrain, then pay back the sadistic tickler, but it wouldn't actually be a nonconsentual video, it would be a consentually staged nonconsentual performance. The tickling will be real, the implied nonconsent won't be. Even if they just suddenly pop the whole thing on one of the tickling models, the tickling models are obviously getting some kind of enjoyment out of it to begin with, so it's not like they're really going to be shocked and startled and honestly wanting to be released.

What would be a better request would be for them to hire a model for a bondage video of sorts, making sure she only agrees to be tied up, nothing more... making sure she's really ticklish beforehand and totally hates being tickled. That way, there's no beforehand tickling consent, and you can honestly say the tickling went on "nonconsentually". Then afterwards, they pay her a little bit more as an incentive not to go apeshit on the company for them acting without her consent. Either that or have one of the models bring in one of their ultra-ticklish friends, one who hates being tickled, and spring it on her suddenly, then compensate her the same way you would for any of the models.

Something to consider, anyway.
 
Am I the only one who finds this line of discussion extremely distubring? I mean, a nonconsentual fantasy is all well and good, but to actually LIE to a model, FORCE her into a situation she hasn't agreed to and may hate so a bunch of tickle fans can get off on her torment strikes me as sick.:sowrong:

It would also be extremely illegal. It's called "assault."

I think it's a very VERY bad idea to try to make nonconsentual fantasies REAL. Women are not toys or objects for male desires, to be treated however we please so long as it gives us a cheap thrill.

I find this very, very unsettling.
 
It's been Done Several Times Now

I'm not sure what you're stressing about, Owen. There are already at least three videos on the market that claim to be nonconsensual. TC did it first, with "Without Consent" - the video that started this thread. Paradise Videos has made two of these: one by hiring a prostitute for a "bondage" scene then tickling her unmercifully once she was restrained, and another just recently by tricking an interior decorator into trying out a set of stocks.

Of course, there's always some suspicion that the non-consensual elements were staged, but with Paradise's tapes in particular it certainly looks real enough.

These videos have all sold extremely well with the tickling public, and the models were ultimately paid well enough that nothing came back on the video producers. So the precedent is well-established for these, and they seem to work out well in the end.

Redmage
 
come on

I made the mistake of purchasing TC's Without Consent. Not only was it not nonconsentual...Toni or whatever her name is was about the least ticklish model I've ever seen, with the possible exception of Sara.
 
I agree with 1golfer. I Bought some TC's videos and i think their models are indeed beautiful. Ticklish? That's another question. I don't believe in "nonconsensual" videos.
 
In het land der blinden is eenoog koning

Dutch people have this saying: "In het land der blinden is eenoog koning" Litteraly translated it says: "In the land of the blind, a one-eyed man is king" The reason for me to say this, is that even if TC vids aren't non-consentual (think of this strange thing called the law; TC would be punished for kidnapping if they held some1 against their will) and the models are faking (which I sincerely doubt); they do a much better job at it than producers like Calstar and FMConcepts... I think TC is probably the best in dungeon-tickling. (tickling with big bondage (dungeonmaster) things and stuff)
 
I'll grant you...

that the TC video "Without Consent" has some problems, though I didn't find Toni un-ticklish - far from it. The main problem I had with it was the idea that having been tricked and tickled against her will once, she would allow herself to be tied up (and tickled) again, and yet a third time.

However the two non-consent videos from Paradise videos look much more the real deal. The women there are reduced to hysterical begging (hysterical tears in the case of the hooker). So unless they're skilled professional actresses I'm inclined to think these are authentic.

Redmage
 
Re: It's been Done Several Times Now

Redmage said:
I'm not sure what you're stressing about, Owen. There are already at least three videos on the market that claim to be nonconsensual.
Redmage

What I am "stressing" about, neighbor, is something called "criminal assault," or, as MadKalnod has so accurately put it, RAPE.

Even if Paradise's "non-consentual" vid was real, which I doubt, the fact that something has been done doesn't make it right. Nor does it make it legal. The model, if she really was duped, was a fool to take the money -- she could have done much better by going to court, which she had every right to do.

So THAT'S what I'm "stressing" about. I happen not to approve of kidnapping and torture. Fantasies about that can be entirely harmless. The real thing can't.
 
Hrmmm...

To compare nonconsentual tickling with rape is quite an extreme leap of logic. Assault? Perhaps. Rape? Quite a far cry.

I can remember a cavalcade of near-countless instances of being held against my will and tickled, and doing the same to others. When I was a great deal younger, I can recall a few times being tickled to the point of urination. It was all unintentional, of course... I mean, I'm sure it wasn't anyone's intention to make me piss myself... but to place that into the same category as "rape" is quite a stretch. I think the most extreme classification you could give it would be "assault", unless actual criminal sexual misconduct was involved. (i.e., say, masturbating while you do it or, to use your words, "get[ting] off on her torment" or, like, any kind of genital contact.)

I, too, doubt the nonconsentual authenticity of the so-called "nonconsentual" tickling videos that are currently on the market, but I've learned that greed is an incredibly powerful driving factor. There's a saying I heard once that goes something along the lines of, "Pay a man enough, and he'll walk barefoot through hell." Sure, you can say the hooker should've gone to a judge, but then you have to start thinking about the credibility of the "dwellers of the 'underworld'". You can't honestly believe that the judge is going to take every word that comes out of a *****'s mouth as gospel. (That is, of course, if she was really a ***** to begin with and not just a paid actress in a staged scenario, in which case she wouldn't even have to worry about going to court.) I'm sure it took a lot of negotiation to reach a price that would satisfy her, but getting paid a hefty amount from someone as compensation for something that's practically one of the most innocent methods of "torture" or "assault" one can fathom is a surefire thing. You get paid, you get paid. Going to court involves a lot of effort, paperwork, fees, etc. for the mere CHANCE at being awarded some money. And if you're one of those kinds of people with low credibility, it may turn out to be a complete waste of time.

As an aside: I don't really see how the "one-eyed man is king" quote fits in with your argument at all, Sadistictickler. The saying basically means that a person with greater ability finds himself at a great advantage when in the company of the inept. It doesn't matter if you're the best in that field (the man with both eyes and full sight) as long as you're more able than those around you. The one not so blind leading the blind, because he can, to a greater extent than those around him, see. And it's actually an old english proverb.

Anyway, I never meant to imply that women were merely "there for our pleasure" or whatever it was. That's at the end of the spectrum furthest away from what I really believe regarding relationships and sexuality and whatnot. But you have to take into account the fact that the subject in the Footparadise "nonconsentual" video was a *****, so basically... I mean... yeah, for the right price, she actually IS there for the pleasure of men. It's sad that there are people who become reduced to that state, but it's reality. I'm not saying they're necessarily asking to be assaulted in any way, that's not my point. The point is, technically, men pay her money so that she can be "there for their pleasure". The only difference here is that the negotiation took place after the encounter as opposed to beforehand. She'd most likely have agreed to be tied up and tickled anyway if they'd presented the offer and the satisfying compensatory amount before the entire "session" began as opposed to raising the price afterwards to get her to be cool about the whole thing. Sure, it was a risk to assume that such would be the case, but it seems like they gambled and won, really. (Though, of course, when you think about people like *****s who sell themselves for money, maybe it wasn't such a gambit after all...)

And it seems as though some of you may be arguing your points merely because you're afraid of the legal repercussions, as opposed to a strong moral standing against nonconsentual tickling. "Think of this strange thing called the law". Bringing "the law" into it implies that if it weren't illegal, you'd be saying "hell, yeah! go for it!" I'm not trying to twist any of your words, and perhaps I'm wrong, but arguing that "you can't do that because it's against the law" basically means that if it weren't against the law, it'd be totally okay. There's a difference between the laws of society, the laws of logic and the laws of the heart, so to speak.

But back to my original post, the tickling models bringing in friends could work as a valid idea because, I mean, how many times have you tickled a friend of yours even if you knew they totally hated it? The only difference would be the tickling video production company capitalizing by just happening to have a camera set up to capture the whole event.

In any event, I'm not advocating tying someone up and tickling them to the point of actual, physical torture. And kidnapping? Not in the least bit. I never suggested they go out and grab some random person off of the streets and mercilessly just tickle the hell out of them. Actually, I was never really advocating anything to begin with, merely pointing out a few different ways one can actually say "nonconsentual" and be entirely truthful about it.

But, yeah... "rape"? I mean... come on.
 
Not Even Assault

I don't think it's even assault, personally. The way I see it, assault has to involve some sort of harm to the person, even if it's only putting a scare into them. And if the person "assaulted" decides that they haven't really been harmed and chooses not to pursue it, then no assault has occurred IMO.

Say two buddies are in a bar, and they get into a little disagreement over an old girlfriend. One of them gets mad and shoves the other to the floor. Then he realizes that he's crossed a line, apologizes, helps his bud up and buys him a drink to make up for it. The buddy decides "No harm, no foul" and decides to forgive and forget. No assault there, if you ask me.

Likewise with a "non-consent" tickling vid. The model is going crazy during the tickling, but afterwards they pay her well, and she decides she wasn't actually hurt, and the money makes up for the discomfort. No harm, no foul, no assault.

Basically, if the lady who was ambushed and tickled is satisfied then who are we to second guess her?

Redmage
 
Hrm, perhaps a little far, Redmage...

Assault can be something as little as threatening someone, actually. When it turns into actual physical violence, the charge becomes 'battery' instead, or a combination of both assault and battery.

And in your bar example, see, it all depends, really, on what the outcome of the situation is. Say, for example, the shoved friend falls on a stool and breaks his arm and decides not to just get over it and let it all pass. He can still bring assault and battery charges against his friend and said friend can still be arrested and prosecuted. Sure, friendship usually prevails, but it's a gamble to act before you think and take consequences into account. It's just like if you hired a prostitute or a professional bondage model or whatever under the original non-tickling pretenses and then proceeded in tickling her. You're basically gambling that in the end, after all is said and done, she'll just say "eh, they're paying me enough... no big deal... and I wasn't really hurt in any way." Now, of course, greed is a powerful thing, as is the power of manipulation, so most likely for the right amount she'll just take the money and leave and not file any charges. But there's always that possibility that she'll be so pissed off that she'll actually bring assault charges against you. It still can technically be considered assault and arguing that "in my opinion, it's not assault" isn't going to make any difference in the judge's eyes. Sure, tickling is probably one of the most innocent things you can do to someone (though, of course, if you're incredibly ticklish and don't want it to happen, it can be quite uncomfortable) and it's definitely a far cry from, say, hiring someone under false pretenses and then proceeding in some kind of sexual activity without their consent, but it's still, in the law's eyes, unwanted physical contact. (Hell, people have had sexual harassment lawsuits filed against them for innocent tickles of coworkers here or there. That's the kind of society we currently live in. People are a little too sensitive, it seems.) Now, you can always call into question the credibility of the ticklee, the whole "prostitution" thing, etc., but that doesn't mean you still can't be charged with assault.

So basically it's all a gamble on how the ticklee is going to react afterwards. Sure, the odds are definitely in your favor, but... you're still taking a pretty big risk.
 
The real life "non-consentual" tickling several people have offered as examples is UTTERLY different from tricking someone into being tied up, then tickling them intensely for an extended period knowing it to be torture, all the while filming it for other people's voyeurism. That just isn't comparable to someone tickling you when you were a kid, or getting into a tickle fight with a friend. The latter is a game. The former is assault... and yes, I would call it a form of rape. It's certainly torture against a person's will. If the victim went to the police, THEY would certainly agree.
 
....to be honest, I agree with owen on this one....I mean, fantasy and reality are two very diffent things, and a lot of things depicted in the private fantasies of people, cannot be played out in reality...a good example of this would be anime death porn....what is it you ask? oh, you didn't ask? well....I'll tell you anyway....it's porn, where the girl is raped, and eventually, killed.....now, the reason it's anime, is because if vids were produced with actual people....well, you get the idea.....

....the fetish world explores everything.....and I mean everything. However, the key to remember when exploring your own fetish is that deep down inside, it's about sharing something special with another person, or persons. And, in my opinion, it's impossible to share anything special with someone if you mislead them and furthermore, proceed to do something to them, without their permission. Even if it's tickling, you are still raping the person of their privacy, even if no sex is involved....that's the bottom line, and I believe that that's what owen meant when he said that nonconsentual tickling is rape. Well, I've preached enough for one day....later kids, try to play nice........
 
Yeah, well, see, there's a difference between metaphorical rape and rape in the sense of the actual, physical, legally-defined act. And there's a difference between assault and rape. I once read in the news about this fairly bizarre event that happened in Britain where a woman was taken into an alleyway and held at knifepoint until she passed gas into her attacker's face. It turns out the guy had some weird kind of insatiable anal/gastrointestinal fetish. Now, see, they caught him and ended up charging him with assault. Just because an activity can be associated with a fetish (and just about every one can... take the bizarre hentai death example mentioned above) and that someone's getting sexually aroused by it doesn't mean that it's technically rape. That's just like saying that if I had a fetish for punching someone in the face and I went out and decked someone, secretly getting off on it, I could be arrested for and charged with rape. It would still be assault. The difference, as I've explained before, is that rape involves a violation of sexual organs in some form. Tickling someone's feet or armpits against their will isn't the same as forced, unwanted penetration or violation of a bodily orifice. And any law enforcement official would agree.

And nonconsentual tickling is still nonconsentual tickling, whether there's a camera set up or not. I mean, I wouldn't exactly call being tickled against my will to the point of pissing my pants a "game", even though it was all playful intent. And whether someone was videotaping it or not, it was still tickling that happened against my will, and therefore "nonconsentual". I mean, what if the same playful type of "game" just happened to go on in an office with a security camera? Like, the janitor grabs a secretary who hates to be tickled who happens to be staying late and tickles her for a few minutes. Now, sure, innocent fun and games. The secretary's a little pissed, sure, but she figures she'll let it slide. Now, the security guard just happens to have a tickling fetish, so instead of going back and erasing the tape, he keeps a copy of it for himself to get aroused. Maybe he even uses the video input on his video card to make a movie file out of it on his computer. At what point did it stop being a "game" and start being "fetish voyeurism"? It's all still nonconsentual tickling, therefore the examples I've previously provided are valid.

And I agree, Everlast... sexuality and fetishism is definitely better when it's something that's shared between onesself and another person. I'm not advocating that someone actually MAKE a nonconsentual tickling (or any other kind of fetish) video, I was initially merely pointing out the authenticity flaws in requesting such a video.
 
OK, Here's the Law

Since everyone is worried about the law, I figured I'd go see what California law actually states. The results were enlightening.

First, I don't think non-consensual tickling can be construed as assault. Section 240 of the California Penal Code provides the legal definition of assault: "240. An assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another." That's it - that's the full definition under California law. To the best of my knowledge, forcing someone to laugh helplessly can't possibly be construed as a "violent injury."

The relevant section of law is here for those who want to read it: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=46156116449+6+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

Nor is it kidnapping. Section 207(a) of the Penal Code defines this crime: "207. (a) Every person who forcibly, or by any other means of
instilling fear, steals or takes, or holds, detains, or arrests any
person in this state, and carries the person into another country,
state, or county, or into another part of the same county, is guilty
of kidnapping." Notice the "AND" - you must detain a person AND convey them to some other place.

See here for the full cite: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=46187116832+4+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

It certainly isn't rape. That's defined in Section 261(a)(2): "261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following circumstances:...(2) Where it is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury on the person or another." No sexual intercourse means no rape.

So offhand I'm not sure what crime non-consensual tickling might be charged as. But it's certainly none of the ones that have been suggested so far.

Redmage
 
If a woman went to the police and said, "Some people tied me up, lied to me about what would be done, and then tortured me for hours while videotaping it, ignoring my demands for release," do you honestly think they'd say, "oh sorry, they didn't break the skin, so it isn't assault." Are you aware that mere verbal taunting can constitute legal assault? Well it can. That's assault without battery, but it's still assault.

Yes, it's not legal rape. It is metaphorical rape.

And yes, forcing someone to laugh helplessly IS violent injury, if it causes pain and distress and is forced.

Basically, what you've said is that one has a right to do anything you want to anyone else as long as it doesn't cause literal damage. Do you really believe that? I really can't believe you do.

So please don't promote the idea that forced cruelty isn't criminal, just because tickling makes people laugh. Like I said, verbal assault is legally assault. Tickling assault would be too.

Frankly, I don't believe that you mean what you seem to be saying. Obviously, you're not out there forcing tickling on unsuspecting women. But do you really want to see that done to anyone?
 
jeez, what a tedious argument

I'm sure TC is loving all this publicity, and I hope in this grand discussion we don't forget that it wasn't nonconsentual and the model wasn't ticklish. Okay....back to the debate. *Yawn*
 
U.N.Owen said:
If a woman went to the police and said, "Some people tied me up, lied to me about what would be done, and then tortured me for hours while videotaping it, ignoring my demands for release," do you honestly think they'd say, "oh sorry, they didn't break the skin, so it isn't assault."

No, I think they'd take a report, note that the "torture" consisted of tickling only (not included in the legal definition of torture, BTW - I checked), then talk to a prosecutor who would, I'm quite certain, tell them that tickling inflicts no violent injury and that there was no case for an assault charge.

Are you aware that mere verbal taunting can constitute legal assault? Well it can. That's assault without battery, but it's still assault.

You need to read up on the law, Owen. Verbal THREATS constitute assault - if and only if they are threats to commit violent injury. Telling someone "I'm going to come over there and punch your lights out if you don't shut up" is assault. Saying "You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny" is not assault, though it is verbal taunting.

Once again, I invite you to look it up. I provided links to the California Penal Code for just that purpose.

Basically, what you've said is that one has a right to do anything you want to anyone else as long as it doesn't cause literal damage. Do you really believe that? I really can't believe you do.

No, I don't believe that. I believe that adults have the right to decide whether or not they've been injured, within the limits of the law, and that adults have the right to take what risks they choose. And I think that nothing should be illegal that doesn't cause actual injury to life, limb, liberty, or property.

Put this all together, and I'm saying that a model who has been tricked into being bound and tickled has not been assaulted or raped as the law defines these terms, and does not (and should not) have cause to file criminal charges.

That's NOT to say that this sort of thing is without risk for the video producers. First of all, the fact that a charge of assault would probably fail in court doesn't mean that the DA couldn't or wouldn't file charges, and the defense, while ultimately successful, would be quite expensive. Second, the model would have a fairly good case to sue in court for intentional infliction of emotional distress and, since she's being paid and is hence an employee, she might even be able to make a case for sexual harassment, as odd as that sounds.

But, as I said, adults have the right to take the risks they choose. The producers are adults, and they seem to feel they've worked out a formula for working with models and placating them once they're done. Either that, or it's all a grand snow job 😉 . Either way I think it's up to them and their models to work this out, and not something we need to get our shorts in a bind over. Moral outrage on behalf of a model who seems to think that she was treated fairly in the end serves no useful purpose IMO.

Best,

Redmage
 
Well, your extremely narrow reading of assault is not consistent with case law, and any cop who responded as you suggest to willful abuse and violation of personal rights would be a public disgrace... but I'm getting sick of this thread. I think we've both said all we have to say.
 
Re: jeez, what a tedious argument

1golfer said:
I'm sure TC is loving all this publicity, and I hope in this grand discussion we don't forget that it wasn't nonconsentual and the model wasn't ticklish. Okay....back to the debate. *Yawn*

How come you're so sure the model wasn't ticklish?
 
I think that the rape analogy works pretty well. rape is a crime of hate. not because the guy can’t get a date.

tickling someone against their will would be an act of hate. not because the man loves to tickle. (what a beautiful combination of words... ‘the man loves to tickle’ 🙂 )

I saw lots of talk about the legality of the whole thing from those on the ‘for’ side but nothing about a little empathy for the victim. we are talking an actual human being here. someone’s sister. someone’s daughter. if she knew she would be taken beyond her limits and wanted that... then cool for her! sometimes consensual can feel pretty non-consensual.

but that’s not what is wanted here... is it? what’s wanted is a little punishment for women. a little ‘here, take that.’ just like rape.

fantasize, read, write and draw (God knows I do lol) but please don’t advocate it actually happening to someone.
 
No, I don't think so.

There's nothing in this about hating women. I think this sort of thing would work equally well with a man. However neither of the companies that have published "non-consent" videos have done much with */m tickling, so I didn't bother suggesting it.

I think folks are just looking for something to get irritated about at this point, really.

Redmage
 
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