On the serious side: feminist in society & Lee in the bedroom

[Ticklish&InLove]

On the serious side: feminist in society & submissive Lee in the bedroom - not mutually exclusive

I'd like to suggest a serious minded conversation here in behalf of something I've noticed in society lately. I figure if I am, other female submissive Lees maybe as well, so speaking out loud about it, might be helpful to everyone:

:21:

The dom-submissive side of erotica can be a challenging quandary for the modern woman. In my day to day life, I am the one who is generally in the role of “boss” and who has final say over many things. But, (and perhaps because of), this has made me desire to be more on the side of the seduced ticklee in my personal life. I would be willing to bet that many independent, smart, successful women find the submissive side of tickling a desirable outlet and probably the same goes for men. And I would be willing to bet that in real life those who hold less control over their day to day lives probably enjoy being the dominate one in bed, via tickling or otherwise.

I think that we as women are often told we have to fit into very narrow confined definitions, and society tends to look down its noses at those who enjoy being a bit dominated in bed. But erotica gives us the freedom to explore those alternate roles for ourselves and see what might happen if a way towards “giving into one’s wildest fantasies” could be achieved without giving up one’s will – or basic self-respect.

Admitting to ourselves that we are not the “vanilla” type is a frightening experience when Hollywood portrays sex as being a certain way and portrays "strong" women as behaving dominantly 100% of the time. But real people don't fit into a box.

In fact, while one might assume that having a past in which one was the unwilling one bullied would make one more eager to hold the reins of control in regards to intimacy, it is often the other way around. I think this is because the fear engendered by past experiences creates the need for an extra push for those who have been victimized to "let go". This "push" is sometimes via seduction and sometimes via a dominate lover. I think this psychological reaction is perfectly natural, can even be healing, (not to mention just plain FUN!)and those of us into a dom-sub kinky scene ( of which the Tickler-Ticklee dynamic is a part), should more openly talk about this for those who are exploring it for the first time.

I realize this is a rather long winded and serious post, but as an empowered woman in my community, I often hear the Dom-Sub dynamic spoken of in derogatory terms by my fellow women as being opposite very real important issues such as the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act or issues of women's oppression and the sex slave trade. I think this is sad because (and I know I might make a lot of women angry here, but so be it), while women should demand equal treatment in life, there is an inherent erotic indulgence to be found in releasing that control to someone one trusts. In a world where such trust is rare, savoring the contrast between being dominate in ones professional life, equally in control in ones private life and submissive in ones intimate life shouldn't mean one is any less committed to seeking, fighting for and standing for societal equality.

Life is a very varied experience of sensations.....so why limit it or feel guilty about doing so?

I'd love to hear any others (both men's and women's) points of view here🙂

 

[chicag0]

Very interesting topic!

I believe that fetishes develop in childhood and many in the community will say that they were aware of feeling different towards tickling than most people, even from a young age.

However, of all the things I've seen or read about fetishes, kink, bdsm, it seems that many powerful men/women, or perhaps individuals that have a lot of responsibilities, enjoy the opposite role in their private lives.

I've also seen many cases where peoples' personalities matched both in private / public.

And then of course, people are so multifaceted that it's almost impossible to determine why one child sees a cartoon with tickling and it doesn't affect him while the other child that sees it, develops a foot / tickling fetish later on. At least, it's almost impossible for me to determine since I'm definitely no psychologist. But that's what makes this whole thing interesting to think and talk about.

I would have to say that I feel like I'm a 'lee and more submissive in certain aspects of my life, because growing up I had to take care of my family more than the average kid would, on top of working and going to school and it was very difficult having all that on my plate. That said, I can remember feeling weird whenever someone said the T word when I was as young as like 4 or 5.

My outward personality can be very much the opposite. I feel like I come across as intimidating and that's intentional as I want to keep most people away since my past has kind of ingrained me to not be very trustworthy of people.

Anyway, I could go on and on. Looking forward to more replies.

 

[sadi]

Being raised without a father, and moving very frequently, independence has been ingrained in my life, since whenever I did open up and let someone in, we either moved or they died (dying related to the more permanent family members in my life), so I was learned 'opening up' was pointless, so... I'm a dom. 😀
In addition, I'm also a strong type A personality, and, being a control freak, I can't 'let go' enough to not be the 'dom'/tickler.
(Not to mention freaking out to the extent that I was physically violent to those who tried to instigate tickling me when I was a youngster, making each immediately stop. :stickout) (There's more to it, I'm sure, but this is the preface)

Personally, I think feminism's gone a 'bit' too far (from my perspective, so whether this is right or wrong, this is the way I see it as, okay?!!), from 'women can do everything' to 'women have to do everything'. But that's only one strain/part/whatever of 'some' feminists, I've found.

But I really, really like this topic and am very curious to hear what more 'psychologically-educated' people's opinions are regarding such a topic. :cool

 

[TheTickleMonster]

I think that we as women are often told we have to fit into very narrow confined definitions, and society tends to look down its noses at those who enjoy being a bit dominated in bed. But erotica gives us the freedom to explore those alternate roles for ourselves and see what might happen if a way towards “giving into one’s wildest fantasies” could be achieved without giving up one’s will – or basic self-respect.

Admitting to ourselves that we are not the “vanilla” type is a frightening experience when Hollywood portrays sex as being a certain way and portrays "strong" women as behaving dominantly 100% of the time. But real people don't fit into a box.

In fact, while one might assume that having a past in which one was the unwilling one bullied would make one more eager to hold the reins of control in regards to intimacy, it is often the other way around. I think this is because the fear engendered by past experiences creates the need for an extra push for those who have been victimized to "let go". This "push" is sometimes via seduction and sometimes via a dominate lover. I think this psychological reaction is perfectly natural, can even be healing, (not to mention just plain FUN!)and those of us into a dom-sub kinky scene ( of which the Tickler-Ticklee dynamic is a part), should more openly talk about this for those who are exploring it for the first time.

I realize this is a rather long winded and serious post, but as an empowered woman in my community, I often hear the Dom-Sub dynamic spoken of in derogatory terms by my fellow women as being opposite very real important issues such as the Equal Pay for Equal Work Act or issues of women's oppression and the sex slave trade. I think this is sad because (and I know I might make a lot of women angry here, but so be it), while women should demand equal treatment in life, there is an inherent erotic indulgence to be found in releasing that control to someone one trusts. In a world where such trust is rare, savoring the contrast between being dominate in ones professional life, equally in control in ones private life and submissive in ones intimate life shouldn't mean one is any less committed to seeking, fighting for and standing for societal equality.

Life is a very varied experience of sensations.....so why limit it or feel guilty about doing so?

I'd love to hear any others (both men's and women's) points of view here🙂

I think it's pretty much a lose-lose situation with women in our society. It just depends on who you're talking to about your sex life. The feminists will tell you that you shouldn't be submissive, you should be dominate, not weak yadda yadda... but then you also got other women (and men) that think women should always be submissive to their man. Not because they don't deserve respect but you don't want to seem all manly, especially in the bed room. You need to satisfy your man and do what he wants, yadda yadda yadda.

Personally, I don't think it's wrong to be either... you just gotta find someone that compliments that personality and is the other half...

Basically I just said all that to have something relavent to what you posted about women so I can say this next thing...

Guys are put in a box too when it comes to sexuality or anything really. You always hear things about how society paints a picture of how women are supposed to be and if you're not like that, you're not good enough or whatever... but they do the same to men but people don't seem to realize that.

Since this is about sexually stuff, I'll just say that men are put in a box saying they have to be dominate. If they are submissive they are seen as week, unmanly and submissive men gotta deal with that... they also got to deal with the lake of people that want to tickle them. 😛 I'm not a male lee so I don't really have that issue, but I know I've been criticized for doing things that men aren't supposed to do because it's not "manly" but anyways, I'll shut up now before I go completely off topic.

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

I think it's pretty much a lose-lose situation with women in our society. It just depends on who you're talking to about your sex life. The feminists will tell you that you shouldn't be submissive, you should be dominate, not weak yadda yadda... but then you also got other women (and men) that think women should always be submissive to their man. Not because they don't deserve respect but you don't want to seem all manly, especially in the bed room. You need to satisfy your man and do what he wants, yadda yadda yadda.

Personally, I don't think it's wrong to be either... you just gotta find someone that compliments that personality and is the other half...

Basically I just said all that to have something relavent to what you posted about women so I can say this next thing...

Guys are put in a box too when it comes to sexuality or anything really. You always hear things about how society paints a picture of how women are supposed to be and if you're not like that, you're not good enough or whatever... but they do the same to men but people don't seem to realize that.

Since this is about sexually stuff, I'll just say that men are put in a box saying they have to be dominate. If they are submissive they are seen as week, unmanly and submissive men gotta deal with that... they also got to deal with the lake of people that want to tickle them. 😛 I'm not a male lee so I don't really have that issue, but I know I've been criticized for doing things that men aren't supposed to do because it's not "manly" but anyways, I'll shut up now before I go completely off topic.

Thanks, MTTickleMonster, for bringing up how a similar dynamic exists for men as well. I couldn't agree more with your points.

As for who I talk about my sex life to, actually no one outside this anonymous forum and equally anonymous deviantart. But, because of a lot of the things I do in my more public life, I am constantly hearing people discuss issues of gender equality and human trafficking. Not surprisingly, the topics of porn, erotica and kinky lifestyles are brought up. However, what bothers me is how many educated women see it all as blended together. In their eyes, there is no such thing as healthy alternative sexual life choices. The Dom-Sub culture is seen as part of the problem and women and men who choose it as contributors to the larger issues. Especially in regards to issues of women's rights.

Which leaves me wondering about how our ticklephile subculture - itself a subculture of the Dom/Sub dynamic, can articulate how choosing to be submissive - be you male or female - in intimacy, is not a self-declaration of weakness or belief that one has less personal regard for their own value.

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

Being raised without a father, and moving very frequently, independence has been ingrained in my life, since whenever I did open up and let someone in, we either moved or they died (dying related to the more permanent family members in my life), so I was learned 'opening up' was pointless, so... I'm a dom. 😀
In addition, I'm also a strong type A personality, and, being a control freak, I can't 'let go' enough to not be the 'dom'/tickler.
(Not to mention freaking out to the extent that I was physically violent to those who tried to instigate tickling me when I was a youngster, making each immediately stop. :stickout) (There's more to it, I'm sure, but this is the preface)

Personally, I think feminism's gone a 'bit' too far (from my perspective, so whether this is right or wrong, this is the way I see it as, okay?!!), from 'women can do everything' to 'women have to do everything'. But that's only one strain/part/whatever of 'some' feminists, I've found.

But I really, really like this topic and am very curious to hear what more 'psychologically-educated' people's opinions are regarding such a topic. :cool

SadistcTklr - you make a brilliant point regarding the difference between saying women can do everything and women having to do everything....I'd add to that the current societal argument that women shouldn't want or can't do everything. I think the louder that last demographic gets, the louder the feminists who believe we should do everything becomes.

And yet, the original definition of feminism was simply equality. True equality would not see any lack of self-respect in the dom-sub roles of two willing adults, irregardless of gender, don't you think? 😀

 

[TheTickleMonster]

My problem with gender equality is that women seem to only want equal rights for the good things, not the bad.

At 18 all men have to sign up for the draft. The draft is not around anymore but we still have to sign up for it. But I'm sure women don't want to have to do that. But I don't think they'll truly be equal until they have to do that... but I doubt they ever will.

And we've come a long way with the equality thing. Women can vote, women can serve on submarines, and that whole 77 cents to a dollar thing... From what I understand it's not as true as people will make you believe. I'm not saying that there aren't people that pay women less. I just don't think it's as common as people want you to believe. At least I've heard good arguments that it's a bunch of BS. But as a disclaimer though, I haven't really studied that so I'm not expect on the subject.

And Human trafficking is a despicable crime that really needs to end... however I don't think it really has anything to do with porn or anything of the like. People like sex... and some of them like it with girls they can't get or whatever... if there was no porn it would probably still be around... maybe even more so because people couldn't get sex on their lap top.

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

My problem with gender equality is that women seem to only want equal rights for the good things, not the bad.

At 18 all men have to sign up for the draft. The draft is not around anymore but we still have to sign up for it. But I'm sure women don't want to have to do that. But I don't think they'll truly be equal until they have to do that... but I doubt they ever will.

And we've come a long way with the equality thing. Women can vote, women can serve on submarines, and that whole 77 cents to a dollar thing... From what I understand it's not as true as people will make you believe. I'm not saying that there aren't people that pay women less. I just don't think it's as common as people want you to believe. At least I've heard good arguments that it's a bunch of BS. But as a disclaimer though, I haven't really studied that so I'm not expect on the subject.

And Human trafficking is a despicable crime that really needs to end... however I don't think it really has anything to do with porn or anything of the like. People like sex... and some of them like it with girls they can't get or whatever... if there was no porn it would probably still be around... maybe even more so because people couldn't get sex on their lap top.

Actually, when I turned 18, I signed up for the draft for the exact reasons you stated.

As for the Equal Work For Equal Pay, sadly, it is quite common. But people need to compare the exact same jobs and demand the exact same quantity/quality if they are talking about equal pay. If you research that, you will learn that there is a disparity.

As for Human Trafficking, I agree with everything you said: porn will not increase the demand....in fact it would probably increase it if access to porn was denied. I am aware that when I look at erotic art or literature I have the responsibility to insure I'm not looking (and therefore patroning) an underage site.

But I wish there was a greater societal understanding of the difference between willing adult sub-dom dynamic and sex trafficking. I think that is where the biggest miscommunication and misunderstanding lies between us kinky ones and society at large.

(BTW - it's funny, MTTickleMonster, to share a cerebral conversation with you here while getting virtually tickled by you in the tickle fight forum....No one can ever say you aren't a multi-tasker! LOL! :lol)

 

[chicag0]

Men and women will never be seen as completely equal because there are so many differences between the sexes and there are people from both genders who add to the stereotypes. It's believed that, for the most part, women are the victims of rape or domestic violence, but I think that's very due to how much men do not report when they are victims of these kinds of crimes. Who knows exactly why they don't report them, but it's likely because of the stigma that men are not allowed to appear weak or submissive.

The equal pay thing is hard to nail down too, since women are typically not as aggressive as men when it comes to asking for pay raises or negotiating salary. And you have to factor in that two people doing the same job maybe should not get paid the same if one person has 20 years of experience and the other is just starting. Just because the one with experience is a man and the one that's new is a woman, does it make it unfair? I don't know.

Even if pay wasn't an issue and women did sign up for the draft-that-doesn't-exist, both genders still have to deal with issues of sexism and different gender roles / expectations.

When it comes to kink, and life really, I'm all about doing whatever makes you happy as long as it is not physically or emotionally damaging to anyone involved.

 

[TKLVR181]

Just gonna add my two cents in here--first off, I don't consider myself a 'femanist', just a woman (or hell, a girl more likely 😛 ). The 'bigger issues' of women v men don't often cross my mind.

However, I'm a psychologist, and have analyzed myself until I'm blue in the face--sometimes a painful process but I think I like what I've come up with.

I'm a switch, and it really makes good psychological sense, largely for reasons discussed above. I was raised half by a mother who was mostly doing marijuanna, abusing alcohol, and working nights, and I had friends who stayed with 'us' nearly as often as siblings from a very early age. I felt responsible for them--I'm also the eldest of 5, all from said mother, so I had a lot of my plate from an early age.

My particular branch of leeing is something I don't see many people talking about--I like to feel *safe* when I lee. It's not easy for me to 'let go' and make myself vulnerable like that, though it's a lot easier now than it ever has been in the past eight or so years since I joined. Having a ler that I know at least gives a damn about how I feel is important--as is knowing that I'm not going to be made fun of (I make a great distinction between being made fun of and playfully teased, I'll point out before any of you open your mouths =p) when I lee--that's happened before and it hurt.

As to the 'ler side--for those of you who don't know I was born with Spina Bifida, or a hole in my back, and have never been able to walk or feel below my knees. I spent a few years in a big city where I was made fun of a lot--I think I managed to not let it change me all that much. However, it makes perfect sense that a person in my situation might turn out to be a ler to be terrified of 😛 Seeing somebody squirm UNDER me for a change, knowing that despite their begs for mercy (I love begs :drool ) they don't *actually* want me to stop...yeah, good stuff alright :cool

~K

 

[Senshi1]

Real interesting topic, TAIL. 🙂

With regards to gender roles, I, like most people (let's be honest), have both reasonable and biased views. One of my more biased ones in particular is that, in the IRL world (wooo), I prefer the company of women over men. It's completely non-sexual, you understand - I'm hitched, so I'm not trying to bed anyone. In fact, that's what makes women easier for me to get along with - I'm not trying to attract a mate, and don't care if I look like a fool or a big shot. In contrast to this, the reason I get on less easily with men IRL (and this is the biased bit), is because I feel like men IRL are constantly trying to out-man each other. There's always a power struggle. They always have to be the better one at DIY, or have the best stories, or be the one in charge. It's tiring. With women, I don't get that.

As for the draft, don't get me started. Existent or not, I have a big problem with the draft, and it's nothing to do with gender roles - it's to do with nationality. I could go into it if anyone's interested, but only if they're interested - otherwise I'll ease off so I don't derail this topic.

With regards to position in the bedroom, I don't have a lot of control over my day to day life. I seem to be one of life's errand boys. Which is what it is. I'm not whinging - I have a job and a roof, and even a car, so I have no room to complain about that. But in the bedroom, what really relaxes me, is COMPLETELY losing control and being on the far end of the Sub scale. I find it relaxing. When you have absolutely no say over anything, even the movements of your own body or the right to utter a word, you get this euphoric feeling of total irresponsibility. I don't mean being reckless, I mean you're not calling ANY shots, so there's no pressure from any direction. Handing complete control over to someone else is the ultimate in relaxation for me.

And as a side-note, I was one of the few who did not have a tickle fetish from an early age. I talked freely of it, and as a child even asked outright for it, because I enjoyed the adrenaline rush of trying to get away. It only became sexual for me during puberty, when I saw a show that combined tickling with bondage (bondage and kidnapping I HAVE always had a sexual thing for). I thought "fockin' capital idea!", and went online to do some research - the rest is history. 🙂

Such a long reply - I have more wind than an autumn Monday at the beach. :/

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

Just gonna add my two cents in here--first off, I don't consider myself a 'femanist', just a woman (or hell, a girl more likely 😛 ). The 'bigger issues' of women v men don't often cross my mind.

However, I'm a psychologist, and have analyzed myself until I'm blue in the face--sometimes a painful process but I think I like what I've come up with.

I'm a switch, and it really makes good psychological sense, largely for reasons discussed above. I was raised half by a mother who was mostly doing marijuanna, abusing alcohol, and working nights, and I had friends who stayed with 'us' nearly as often as siblings from a very early age. I felt responsible for them--I'm also the eldest of 5, all from said mother, so I had a lot of my plate from an early age.

My particular branch of leeing is something I don't see many people talking about--I like to feel *safe* when I lee. It's not easy for me to 'let go' and make myself vulnerable like that, though it's a lot easier now than it ever has been in the past eight or so years since I joined. Having a ler that I know at least gives a damn about how I feel is important--as is knowing that I'm not going to be made fun of (I make a great distinction between being made fun of and playfully teased, I'll point out before any of you open your mouths =p) when I lee--that's happened before and it hurt.

As to the 'ler side--for those of you who don't know I was born with Spina Bifida, or a hole in my back, and have never been able to walk or feel below my knees. I spent a few years in a big city where I was made fun of a lot--I think I managed to not let it change me all that much. However, it makes perfect sense that a person in my situation might turn out to be a ler to be terrified of 😛 Seeing somebody squirm UNDER me for a change, knowing that despite their begs for mercy (I love begs :drool ) they don't *actually* want me to stop...yeah, good stuff alright :cool

~K

Karen,

Thanks for sharing something so personal. I think your story just helps to support the idea that whichever side one is on - be it the Dom-Ler or Sub-Lee, either can be quite healing psychologically, and not always in the ways others might anticipate.

While it is nothing compared to your challenges, I have a hearing loss in both ears and can really relate to your need to feel in-control in your life in one way or another.

To further explore something I mentioned,

"While one might assume that having a past in which one was the unwilling one bullied would make a person more eager to hold the reins of control in regards to intimacy, it is often the other way around. I think this is because the fear engendered by past experiences creates the need for an extra push for those who have been victimized to "let go". This "push" is sometimes via seduction and sometimes via a dominate lover. I think this psychological reaction is perfectly natural. "

There is a reason I have found for this:

When I was a teenager, I had not one, but three stalkers and was even molested once by two other adults-one a man and one a woman. This made me react in much the same way as is often described,such as trying to wear unflattering clothes. But, once, during my first year of college, I was home and the stalker had parked in the alley beside my parent's house. He started up his car and was about to drive after my friend. Something in me just snapped and I began picking up small stones and throwing them at his car while shouting at him. After that day, I was never harassed again, irregardless of how sexy I chose to dress. The reason I am sharing this with you is because I learned that day that what had been attracting the harassment was in part due to my trying to be invisible, small, etc....all the things which unconsciously sent out the signal to would-be harassers that I was a victim. Once I began walking tall again, (I'm only 4'11 to begin with!)wearing whatever made me feel good, and looking people in the eye, the bullies were no longer interested.

The same lesson has applied to my work which has often taken me around the world where I'm one if the few females and must hold my own. It is in the knowing of my own self-worth that enables me to go toe to toe in a negotiation with other organizational leaders and it is also that knowledge that enables me to feel free and safe enough to embrace the playfulness if being submissive in the bedroom as well.

I think when people don't see how the same strength serves to support both, that's when they are more inclined to label all Dom-Sub dynamics as hurtful as opposed to recognizing how they can be a healthy exploration of self.

I'm sharing this with you because you seem like a very intelligent woman with a very sexy mind - your "light" is a beautiful one, and comes across in your writing, so while being a Ler might be one of the main places you feel empowered, I hope your spirit stands tall, that you claim your power, and SHINE like the brilliant writer/psychologist/wife/tickler you are! 🙂

 

[TheTickleMonster]

Actually, when I turned 18, I signed up for the draft for the exact reasons you stated.

As for the Equal Work For Equal Pay, sadly, it is quite common. But people need to compare the exact same jobs and demand the exact same quantity/quality if they are talking about equal pay. If you research that, you will learn that there is a disparity.

Okay, let me put it another way... it might exist more than it should be not for the reasons people think (or like to argue). As miss Chicago pointed out, men are more likely to negotiate their salary and if women don't do that then the employer is going to give her less money because they don't want to give more money than they think they should.... and as she also pointed out women are probably less likely to ask for a raise.

An article I was reading the other day discussed this and pointed out that if you compare women that are mothers to men that are fathers... men tend to work more hours to support their family and mothers tend to work less hours to take care of their family, so that would be another reason... I tried looking for that article and failed...

But I found this..

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/

But seriously, all the statistics that the people use the figure this out is taking all of what women make and all of what men make and average each and figure out how much the average man makes compared to the average woman... at least that's what I think they do. In order to truly figure this out they need to take women from one job that work a certain amount of hours and compare them to men of the same job that work the same amount of hours. A female cop doesn't need to make the same as a male Microsoft employee. It's equal pay for equal work... that means that a man and woman in the same exact job working the same exact hours should get the same exact pay.

(BTW - it's funny, MTTickleMonster, to share a cerebral conversation with you here while getting virtually tickled by you in the tickle fight forum....No one can ever say you aren't a multi-tasker! LOL! :lol)

Yeah, I got skills... I hate that stupid stereotype that guys can't multitask... but I pretty much much hate all stereotypes.

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

Real interesting topic, TAIL. 🙂

With regards to gender roles, I, like most people (let's be honest), have both reasonable and biased views. One of my more biased ones in particular is that, in the IRL world (wooo), I prefer the company of women over men. It's completely non-sexual, you understand - I'm hitched, so I'm not trying to bed anyone. In fact, that's what makes women easier for me to get along with - I'm not trying to attract a mate, and don't care if I look like a fool or a big shot. In contrast to this, the reason I get on less easily with men IRL (and this is the biased bit), is because I feel like men IRL are constantly trying to out-man each other. There's always a power struggle. They always have to be the better one at DIY, or have the best stories, or be the one in charge. It's tiring. With women, I don't get that.

As for the draft, don't get me started. Existent or not, I have a big problem with the draft, and it's nothing to do with gender roles - it's to do with nationality. I could go into it if anyone's interested, but only if they're interested - otherwise I'll ease off so I don't derail this topic.

With regards to position in the bedroom, I don't have a lot of control over my day to day life. I seem to be one of life's errand boys. Which is what it is. I'm not whinging - I have a job and a roof, and even a car, so I have no room to complain about that. But in the bedroom, what really relaxes me, is COMPLETELY losing control and being on the far end of the Sub scale. I find it relaxing. When you have absolutely no say over anything, even the movements of your own body or the right to utter a word, you get this euphoric feeling of total irresponsibility. I don't mean being reckless, I mean you're not calling ANY shots, so there's no pressure from any direction. Handing complete control over to someone else is the ultimate in relaxation for me.

And as a side-note, I was one of the few who did not have a tickle fetish from an early age. I talked freely of it, and as a child even asked outright for it, because I enjoyed the adrenaline rush of trying to get away. It only became sexual for me during puberty, when I saw a show that combined tickling with bondage (bondage and kidnapping I HAVE always had a sexual thing for). I thought "fockin' capital idea!", and went online to do some research - the rest is history. 🙂

Such a long reply - I have more wind than an autumn Monday at the beach. :/

Never apologize for articulating such insightful thoughts, Senshi! 🙂

I found a LOT of your points to be refreshing and very honest. Especially in terms of how you find Lee-ing to be a stress relief. I imagine many Lers find tickling to relieve stress as well.

Once again, we find yet another psychological benefit of adults willingly participating in Dom-Ler/Sub-Lee activities! I just KNEW we had a brilliant online community! (What I didn't know was what good writers everyone would turn out to be! :lol )

 

[TKLVR181]

T&IL--I'm honored, really, that my sharing made you feel comfortable sharing too. I've shared my story many times here on TT--my struggles are something I'm not ashamed talking about, not here at least. I'm sorry to hear you've had issues, but you really sound like you've come out better for having dealt with them. I too am 4'11, and that's standing up, not even in the chair, so I understand totally. Thanks so much for the kind words, and I'd give you some in return but I think you covered it perfectly and if I try to follow that up I'm going to look like a civilian next to Galactus :lol

I can definitely agree with what you said about feeling victimized making it harder to 'let go'--that's something I struggled with even after I got here...I used to call myself all 'ler. It took good friends letting me know that the desire to lee is NOT a weakness to help shake me out of it--these people helped shake me out of a pretty serious depression, actually. Now I'm proud to wave the switch flag!

~K

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

Okay, let me put it another way... it might exist more than it should be not for the reasons people think (or like to argue). As miss Chicago pointed out, men are more likely to negotiate their salary and if women don't do that then the employer is going to give her less money because they don't want to give more money than they think they should.... and as she also pointed out women are probably less likely to ask for a raise.

An article I was reading the other day discussed this and pointed out that if you compare women that are mothers to men that are fathers... men tend to work more hours to support their family and mothers tend to work less hours to take care of their family, so that would be another reason... I tried looking for that article and failed...

But I found this..

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/06/obamas-77-cent-exaggeration/

But seriously, all the statistics that the people use the figure this out is taking all of what women make and all of what men make and average each and figure out how much the average man makes compared to the average woman... at least that's what I think they do. In order to truly figure this out they need to take women from one job that work a certain amount of hours and compare them to men of the same job that work the same amount of hours. A female cop doesn't need to make the same as a male Microsoft employee. It's equal pay for equal work... that means that a man and woman in the same exact job working the same exact hours should get the same exact pay.



Yeah, I got skills... I hate that stupid stereotype that guys can't multitask... but I pretty much much hate all stereotypes.

As for how you suggest male-female salaries should be compared, I completely agree. You basically said what I was also saying - that to truly compare, the quantity and quality need to be compared in regards to the exact same jobs. I think we can all agree that, and not any other factor, should be what salaries are based on.

As for multi-tasking, my assistant is of the male side if our species and he is a FAR better multi-tasker than I am...so please believe me when I say no stereotype was intended in my comment to you, just genuine humor and admiration! 🙂

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

T&IL--I'm honored, really, that my sharing made you feel comfortable sharing too. I've shared my story many times here on TT--my struggles are something I'm not ashamed talking about, not here at least. I'm sorry to hear you've had issues, but you really sound like you've come out better for having dealt with them. I too am 4'11, and that's standing up, not even in the chair, so I understand totally. Thanks so much for the kind words, and I'd give you some in return but I think you covered it perfectly and if I try to follow that up I'm going to look like a civilian next to Galactus :lol

I can definitely agree with what you said about feeling victimized making it harder to 'let go'--that's something I struggled with even after I got here...I used to call myself all 'ler. It took good friends letting me know that the desire to lee is NOT a weakness to help shake me out of it--these people helped shake me out of a pretty serious depression, actually. Now I'm proud to wave the switch flag!

~K

Much to the delight of many a Lee, I'm sure! 😉

 

[chicag0]

Real interesting topic, TAIL. 🙂

And as a side-note, I was one of the few who did not have a tickle fetish from an early age. I talked freely of it, and as a child even asked outright for it, because I enjoyed the adrenaline rush of trying to get away. It only became sexual for me during puberty, when I saw a show that combined tickling with bondage (bondage and kidnapping I HAVE always had a sexual thing for). I thought "fockin' capital idea!", and went online to do some research - the rest is history. 🙂

Such a long reply - I have more wind than an autumn Monday at the beach. :/

Just to clarify, I specifically avoided the words 'fetish' and 'sexual' when talking about the feelings most people here experienced as a kid towards tickling. Many people will say they liked tickling a lot as a kid or they had the fetish from a young age, despite not being aroused at that age, etc. I remember feeling very awkward when someone would talk about it or bring it up. I had no idea what sex was at 4 or 5. No clue what arousal was and had I felt it, I wouldn't even know the difference then, probably. However, fetishes typically develop in childhood because the reproductive system is somewhat developed but kind of dormant. However, it runs "checks" periodically. That's why it's not uncommon for young boys to get erections, even if they are not aroused or anything. Just the system doing a "check" so to speak. For most kids, the "check" goes unnoticed, or perhaps happens while they are looking at a beautiful woman / handsome man and then the typical attraction to boobs / butts / legs or tall / muscles / strong jaw might develop. If the "check" happens while the kid's looking at a pair of feet or watching someone get tickled, there's a chance that could maybe cause attraction to tickling / feet.

All in all, I did not mean that people have a fully-realized sexual attraction / fetish for anything / anyone at such a young age, but rather most people here will say they were aware of certain aspects of it / feelings towards it from a young age.

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

Just to clarify, I specifically avoided the words 'fetish' and 'sexual' when talking about the feelings most people here experienced as a kid towards tickling. Many people will say they liked tickling a lot as a kid or they had the fetish from a young age, despite not being aroused at that age, etc. I remember feeling very awkward when someone would talk about it or bring it up. I had no idea what sex was at 4 or 5. No clue what arousal was and had I felt it, I wouldn't even know the difference then, probably. However, fetishes typically develop in childhood because the reproductive system is somewhat developed but kind of dormant. However, it runs "checks" periodically. That's why it's not uncommon for young boys to get erections, even if they are not aroused or anything. Just the system doing a "check" so to speak. For most kids, the "check" goes unnoticed, or perhaps happens while they are looking at a beautiful woman / handsome man and then the typical attraction to boobs / butts / legs or tall / muscles / strong jaw might develop. If the "check" happens while the kid's looking at a pair of feet or watching someone get tickled, there's a chance that could maybe cause attraction to tickling / feet.

All in all, I did not mean that people have a fully-realized sexual attraction / fetish for anything / anyone at such a young age, but rather most people here will say they were aware of certain aspects of it / feelings towards it from a young age.

Thanks, Chicag0, for posting such a well thought out response.

I completely understand where you are coming from in terms of separating the sexual development from the attraction to tickling while young and then acknowledging how the two often merge at a later stage in life, (but not always).

I distinctly remember being in kindergarten and watching, completely spellbound by a teenage day camp counselor tickling a little girl crazy. (They had been giving out silly awards at the end of the camp, and she had won "Best Tickler", so he had said, "Oh really? Let me see about that!" and attacked full throttle. I couldn't tear my eyes away as I watched her giggle and her cheeks turn pink. Her utter helplessness in the situation was something I just felt an innate attraction towards wanting to experience myself. Did I have a sexual desire in my body at that age? Heck no. BUT, did I have an inexplicable desire to be completely dominated in such a fun ticklish way, heck yes! LOL!:lol

As I got older, I came to connect this desire with my adolescent sexuality....it probably didn't hurt that I was finding myself attracted to both genders (and was more regularly tickled by girls since I went to an all girl school). But I enjoyed tickle attacks from both equally - it just took more than one girl to hold me down, whereas it took only one guy, so the natural opportunity for him to be dominate was simply in the strength.

I think this is in large part why I can separate my feminist beliefs (feminist meaning a belief in gender equality - not to be confused with feminazi!), as I was desiring to be dominated by a tickler regardless of gender - talk about a belief in equal opportunity! LOL!

But during those same years, I was passionately pulled towards human rights, history, literature, art, etc and read all sorts of things on those issues that would become the foundation for why I became an advocate for those things as an adult. All this to say, regardless of whether one identifies oneself as enjoying Dom/Ler-Sub/Lee dynamics as a sexual thing or not (I do), one can still identify with being a feminist. 🙂

 

[oldskool]

I'm a man who likes to be in control most of the time. In the bedroom I like for a woman to take charge. It doesn't surprise me that a feminist is submissive in the bedroom. I think it's tough always trying to control things. Sex is a great way to let go, and not need to be in control. I'm a switch.. Sometimes I love being in control, others I like to let go.

 

[benfegr]

This notion that women have been oppressed for centuries and men have enjoyed privilege and power is a myth and it is a half truth that is swallowed by almost the entire community. Both genders have had to endure hardships because of their gender. Until men invented contraception and the countless appliances for the home which freed up women's time and lessened the physical burden of housework the only way society could function was for women to take responsibility for caring for the children and men the responsibility for working until old and grey to support his wife and kids.

People with no knowledge of history throw up the old .."But women didn't have the vote until 1902." The fact is for centuries men had no right to vote unless they were wealthy land owners-about 3% of the population The wives and children of these few men lived lives of luxury and privilege..while most men were doing back breaking, deadly work in factories and fields.

One of the overlooked facts of voting history is that men had conditions attached to their right to vote. They had to agree to be conscripted into war and be willing to die for their country. Women had absolutely no conditions placed on them when they were given the vote. How oppressive. Thousands of boys died for their country in WW1 without having the right to vote. I know of no women who suffered this fate. It was also a fact that many the suffragettes who spearheaded the white feather campaigns to shame men into going to war.

I could go on-just don't believe the crap about females being the oppressed in our or the world's history. Both genders have suffered and if you want to turn it into a pissing contest I think a very strong case can be made to show men have suffered greater injustice.

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

I could go on-just don't believe the crap about females being the oppressed in our or the world's history. Both genders have suffered and if you want to turn it into a pissing contest I think a very strong case can be made to show men have suffered greater injustice.

:threadj: I mean no offense, benfegr, but I fear you went quite a bit off topic here.

The topic at hand is the argument that female Subs/Ticklees are not being hypocritical in the fact that we believe ourselves to be equal to men in the various aspects of life (work, home, society, religion, etc.) I wanted to create an area where those of us who enjoy being submissive in the bedroom and under to dominance of a devious male Tickler could talk openly openly about how some women view this as hurting feminist beliefs/movements/rights etc. :21: Many of us female Lees are in leadership positions at work, and enjoy the reverse in playful intimate moments to balance it out. So if you'd like to comment on that topic, please feel free too!:cool

However, while debating the historical reasons for the sociological development of the feminist movement could be entertaining - and you certainly seem highly intelligent with a strong opinion - I'd like to respectfully suggest that we keep to the "ticklish" topic at hand in this forum. Again, no offense intended - just want to keep this conversation focused . Thanks so much for your understanding! 🙂

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

I'm a man who likes to be in control most of the time. In the bedroom I like for a woman to take charge. It doesn't surprise me that a feminist is submissive in the bedroom. I think it's tough always trying to control things. Sex is a great way to let go, and not need to be in control. I'm a switch.. Sometimes I love being in control, others I like to let go.

AWESOME observation, Sylar! I agree that the bedroom seems to be a good place to switch from the regular roles we play around with in life...It can also just be a LOT of fun to surrender control when one has to lead in the other 90% of life.😉

 

[benfegr]

:threadj: I mean no offense, benfegr, but I fear you went quite a bit off topic here.

The topic at hand is the argument that female Subs/Ticklees are not being hypocritical in the fact that we believe ourselves to be equal to men in the various aspects of life (work, home, society, religion, etc.) I wanted to create an area where those of us who enjoy being submissive in the bedroom and under to dominance of a devious male Tickler could talk openly openly about how some women view this as hurting feminist beliefs/movements/rights etc. :21: Many of us female Lees are in leadership positions at work, and enjoy the reverse in playful intimate moments to balance it out. So if you'd like to comment on that topic, please feel free too!:cool

However, while debating the historical reasons for the sociological development of the feminist movement could be entertaining - and you certainly seem highly intelligent with a strong opinion - I'd like to respectfully suggest that we keep to the "ticklish" topic at hand in this forum. Again, no offense intended - just want to keep this conversation focused . Thanks so much for your understanding! 🙂

Fair enough. So how would you feel about being restrained and getting your feet tickled by a couple of your work colleagues in lesser positions?

 

[Ticklish&InLove]

Fair enough. So how would you feel about being restrained and getting your feet tickled by a couple of your work colleagues in lesser positions?

Hmm. :huh Don't think that would sound too good. :no: Wouldn't be able to move my mind away from thinking of them in regards to work...

Except for one....as I'm the head of the organization, and my hubby works within it - high up, but I still make the final decisions.....sometimes he enjoys showing me who the "boss" is in the bedroom 😉 ....and when he decides to tickle me, I have noooo resistance to his mischievous touch! *Giggle!* :blush