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Questions to hurt your brain....

Cheshire Cat

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I love these:

If the universe encompasses all that is in existence, every star, planet and trace of matter and reality, and scientists say that the universe is constantly expanding, then what exactly is it expanding into?

(please dont let this next one become a religious debate, its just a rhetorical question) :angel:

If God truly is omnipotent and all powerful, does this mean he could....say...create a rock so massive that he himself could not move it? This takes more into account what being "all powerful" means. Could he create something so powerful that it excedes his own limitations? (if he has any that is, and even though I said "he", I dont deny the fact that it could possibly be female, or neither)
 
If the universe is expanding, why the hell can I never find a parking lot when I need one? 😛

But seriously: The universe is at least expanding in four dimensions, but it has no boundaries. Still, it's finite. So there's no 'outside' it expands into. If ever, you could say it expands into its future existence. Very hard, if not impossible to imagine with our three-dimensional brains (and sometimes two-dimensional thinking).
 
well, I think...

...These questions are so big that the only thing we could ever come up with in response are theories. But of course, I love the natural world and reading about space and all the things out there in the universe...and you can't help but ponder the meaning of it all, and forming your own theories about it.

I have this idea that maybe time, distance and direction don't exist outside of a planet where those things could be measured. Such as the earth. We can measure the distance from one side of the street to the other, we can measure the distance from our earth to our moon, we can even roughly measure the distance from our galaxy to another galaxy... but can we measure the distance from one side of the universe to the other? Nope. And what about when the human race is gone? All our ideas, our measurements, our recordings will be gone with us. Now, there may be a group of intelligent aliens elsewhere that will understand how to measure; but all their measurements would be based on THEIR planet and the nature of their own world, which may be very different from the Earth. And so time, distance, and direction...in the big scheme of things... don't extend beyond the lives of a creature who measures them.

I think the universe is infinite, and that infinity is an idea that can work in many ways, and is very relevant to the mysteries of life and the universe itself. We often wonder things like what will happen after we die, what is our purpose here... perhaps we are each individuals helping to create this 'whole' which is larger than ourselves. And after we die, we will cease to exist, but another individual will exist and continue. The universe may be an infinite pattern of life and death, and the individual lives all come together to build a larger whole, but there is no limit to how large or small an individual can be. Think about bacteria. A bacteria is a living thing, and billions of them could live in what we would consider a very small space. Each bacteria is an individual, but some bacteria are natural in the bodies of larger creatures (like humans and other animals), and so they individually help to create a larger whole. Just as humans, animals, and plants are individuals which help to create the larger whole of the earth. Perhaps the planets in space are all "alive" in their own cosmic sense, and perhaps inside of an atom, there are galaxies and worlds so tiny that we can't imagine them. Perhaps the entire universe is even 'alive' and a part of something even bigger than we have knowledge of currently, which would account for the unexplained expansion. I think there is no limit to how large, or how small, a living thing could be. The pattern of smaller things coming together to create larger things could be infinite. "Life" is difficult to define; we have pretty good definitions of life on our own planet, but perhaps life exists in ways that are so different from what we know, that we wouldn't recognize it as "life".

These are just theories and thoughts, not meant to offend anyone or to speak against anyone's religious beliefs. They are merely the stoner thoughts of a girl who, as an individual, is too small to understand all this, but too curious to ignore it. 😉
 
OK, here's the thing, the universe is itself infinite, the the matter in it is not. There is a boundry to the matter in the universe. All matter started from the Big Bang, and has since then contiually expanded from that one point. So it stands to reason that there would be some galaxies on the edge of this expansion that are forever moving out towards the nothingness. That is unless you believe that gravity will once again regain controll and bring everthing crashing back into itself, just to start the process over again.
 
If a tree falls in the forest and hits a mime, does anyone care?

(switch 'logger' for 'mime' and get the same answer)
 
Boy, this will give everyone a headache:

Here we go. I'm going to put God in this explanation, so those of you who are athiests, just take it out, those who are Christian can have ammo because it does make logical sense, (and is probably correct) and the fundamentalists well, you'd better go tickle someone somewhere, this will hurt.

Everything, everymovement of water arc of a thrown stone, or growth of a tree happens along mathematical lines. Even the changes and effects are caused by mathematical causes and effects. When they say they can find an equation for everything, they're right.

Except, of course, emotions. Emotions don't follow mathematical precision because they're just emotions. You can measure your pleasure in theoretical terms...(for me, tickling that girl is better than tickling that other girl...tickling that girl while she is wearing nude colored pantyhose is 679 times better than tickling her with plain old black socks on...etc.) We can feel there is a quantifying emotional scale, but I guess only God knows what that is.

Now, in math, there is a number scale. The number "infinity" is real. But it is just that, infinity, the final number. You can't say (infinity + 1) because infinity is already infinity plus one. There isn't a number higher than that.

Now, when scientists discover all these equations and numbers, they do just that. They "discover" them. They don't "invent" numbers, or equations. They're basically using what's already there. If other alien races exist out there, they too, may have "discovered" a form of math. Math is a constant. Math is math. Whatever forms there are, all mathmatical functions are equal, in the sense that if a book falls off a table, and a human, an alien from the next planet, one from the next galaxy, and another from the galaxy farthest from ours were watching it, they would all observe that the book fell off the table at point A and hit the floor at point B in time C. They may measure it in their own alien dialect and writings, but all the measurements would be equal. That is why if we ever meet aliens, we will probably communicate through mathmatics, because math is constant throughout the universe.

Now, here's where the headache comes in:
Who invented math?

We can discover how math works, but to actually invent the invisible math itself, well, that's God. My math teacher described this for us, and everyone stood confused because hey couldn't comprehend it. The few of us who could tried to explain it to everyone else, but they just wanted to forget about it and go eat lunch.

Beyond the universe there is infinite nothingness. The universe is expanding into this void. But since God is already infinite, he observes the universe expanding from the outside and the inside. He invented the math to make the universe work and expand.

We can never get there, because let's say you create a ship that can travel really fast. The universe is currently expanding. You race to the edge. The universe already has a head start, and it's going so fast that you would never be able to catch up to it.

It gets more complicated. We see around us three dimensions. There is no dimension, which is a point (if a creature inhabited this universe, it would think that it was a god, because it would encompass it's entire universe) You have one dimensions, a line, where the creatures can only see the point in front of them. You have flatland, where the creatures see lines, and you have three dimensions, where we see flat planes we judge to be distance and space. What is beyond this?

Obviously thee would be a fourth dimension, where you could see all the way around a three dimensional object and the inside and outside at the same time. (look at a square on a sheet of paper at it's level, and you only see a line. Stand up and you can see all four side AND the inside.)

If there is a fourth dimension, there must be a fifth, sixth...up until an infinite dimension, where God is at. But if you are the third dimesion, you are also in one and two dimesions. So God can exist in all dimesions at the same time. Think of them as being one inside the other. A plane consists of many one dimensional world lines.

The universe is expanding forward in time, into infinite dimesnions, though we can only see three of them. There may be other three dimensional universes out there. Imagine standing in a room. You look down and see a plane, where there lives many flat creatures. You look up and there are more planes, each with it's own flat world. But the creatures in one flatland can't possible look up into a third dimesnion to see creatures of another flat land, or our three dimensional world, either. We can't see through the fourth dimension to see if there are other three dimensional worlds out there, because it's impossible.

Of course, God really deosn't think about that much - even though He can think about all things all at once - because He is also infinite love. We can imagine the greatest forms of love - a person who dies so that others may be free, a person who gives an organ or a life to another so that they may live, a person who spends there life sacrificing so that others may feel comfort (Mother Theresa, etc.) or someone who gives up their life caring for a sick or crippled child or spouse, or even a stranger. Things like that can't be measured by instruments, and if they could, many of those instruments would break.

Of course, their is unmeasurable hatred also: slave traders in Sudan who cut the limbs off of slaves who disobey them, terrorists who hate so much they would give their lives, not to help others, but to kill as many as they can so that their will dominates, people filled with so much pride they would topple a family or nation to inflict their will on others, abusive parents, spouses, gang members who prey on the innocent for their own enjoyment, etc. That list goes on and on also.

Hopefully more people concentrate on the love and not the hate, or all universes wouldn't be worth living in.

And we here can be thankful most of all - God invented tickling right after he invented math!
 
for mabus (and partly for siamese dream)

Careful! Extremely long, rather dry speech ahead! 😛

Interesting thoughts! Still, there are a few glitches in your logic, mabus:

According to chaos theory as well as to quantum physics, there are several occurrences in nature which don't follow mathematical lines. You might argue that we just haven't found the according laws yet. Okay, then I'll argue back that we just haven't found out yet why math exists in the first place. Mankind has always assumed some divinity behind everything they don't understand: Thunder and lightning, the weather and seasons, birth and death of life. Today, we've reached infinity, dimensions, and math. So there just has to be a Higher Being behind everything we can't explain? I don't think so; that's still a matter of belief.

Emotions can't be explained by math, but it's possible to predict a lot of them by psychology. Our brains are wired in astonishingly similar ways; I used to carry out several experiments in that area myself. The whole world of advertising campaigns relies on that fact, and successfully so. Only in extreme situations, our emotions react highly unpredictable, in a way that resembles certain chaos mechanisms.

Your 'dimension' analogies sound interesting. I'm quite sure you read 'Flatlanders', too… Still, there are a few inconsistencies in them, IMO:

According to your own theory (and the current scientific views), we can only see the three-dimensional imprints of a four-dimensional object. This would actually mean that ALL objects around (i.e. all matter in the visible universe) are just four-dimensional objects penetrating our three-dimensional world, and all we see is the spots where they touch our world.

But in that case, we should be able to observe a change in the total sum of matter and energy (which is only a different form of matter), as our constantly expanding universe would touch an increasing part of that four-dimensional object(s). In fact, one of the laws of nature is that the sum of matter and energy is constant (I think that's the First Law of Thermodynamics, but I'm not sure). The mathematical proof for that is too complicated for me, I just know it's the same kind of evidence which proves why there are bigger numbers than "1". So the fourth dimension must be completely a part of our universe.

There are a number of theories which deal with the actual amount of dimensions in our universe; some say there are 11 or 26 dimensions, but all the others have rolled into strings. They don't seem to influence our universe, so they are irrelevant for current cosmological theories. Believe in them, if you want. 🙂

Infinity is a mathematical parameter but not a number, as far as I know. It's one of the most unimaginable things we know. But the universe is finite; at least its time vector had a beginning at the Big Bang. There was no "Before". If the universe has an end in a "Big Crunch" (which is still debatable), and if a new Big Bang results from that crush, it would still be the end of our universe, and the beginning of a completely new one, with its own time and space and laws of nature. Only if we were able to observe that, we could tell with certainty that the laws of nature (and math) remain the same, and therefore could be ascribed to a higher being. But sorry, nobody will live to observe the end of the universe…

The proof for the fact that our space and time had an absolute beginning is the mere existence of the 2.6 Kelvin 'white' background radiation. If the existing matter had exploded within an already existing space, then we should be able to find a direction where this explosion originated, by differences in that radiation (which is an echo of the Big Bang). But alas, the nature of that radiation remains extremely homogenous, in whatever direction we observe. So space and time were non-existent 'before' the Big Bang. 😎

What really bites me is the fact that you think there's a 'Beyond' into which our universe expands. That's completely three-dimensional thinking. The universe expands along it's time vector, and within its own "light-cone", but there's no "outside". As a four-dimensional object, it doesn't need an outside where it can expand into; it expands into its own future. I don't pretend to understand all that, but I understand enough of the analogies to get a glimpse of the fourth dimension and its rules. The whole explanation would fill a few books, and I won't be able to write them.

As to your question "Who invented Mathematics", I can only quote the so-called "Weak Anthropic Principle" which is part of nowadays' cosmologic theories: "We observe the universe the way it is, because if it were different, we wouldn't be there to observe it." Sounds like a brain-crusher, but it's much simpler than it sounds. Think it through, I'm sure you will see the beautiful logic behind it.

No objections to your remarks on love and tickling… 🙂
 
Yeah, but....

none of this explains Disco music...until you factor an explanation in for that, I'm not buying it! Q
 
Mate...

NOTHING explains disco music! Unless it's the work of an angry and vengeful god...
 
Lets assume for practicality's (is that a word ? hehe) sake, that my house is the universe. No matter which house I live in, THAT is the universe.

OK, so....

I started out in a one bedroom apartment. It bordered on being tastefully decorated. It wasn't too cluttered or busy. It was just right. THEN, something happened. It started to get cramped! Too much mass in the space. This caused a needed outward expansion of said universe to a two bedroom apartment with a second floor balcony. Again, the process repeats itself. Things seemed ok for a while, but suddenly the universe became cramped. Shoes were everywhere! Plants were hanging off the balcony rail! I couldn't find the phone under the velvet pillows on the couch! So, the universe expands...to a three bedroom apartment...to a two bedroom house...to a three bedroom house...Each time the mass of the universe grows and won't compress to fit within the boundaries. Are these items from the aforementioned Fourth dimension! Must be! 😛 NOW...it's a 4 bedroom house with a studio in the back! I can feel it happening again. I can feel the outer limits of my universe changing. It's distubring...but I've found a solution to stop the expansion of the garage galaxy located within the JoBelle Universe.

Garage sale.

*shrug*

Ah, well...it's just a theory.
Joby
 
Cheshire Cat said:
If God truly is omnipotent and all powerful, does this mean he could....say...create a rock so massive that he himself could not move it?

I won't talk about the first part of the question, it's something I've always wondered myself, and not even remotely qualified to talk about intelligently.

But I can address this above quoted question. It can't be answered, because it uses flawed logic.

In essence, what you're asking is "Can X do something that X cannot do?" Which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't make a bit of sense 😀

JoBelle said:
...but I've found a solution to stop the expansion of the garage galaxy located within the JoBelle Universe.

Garage sale.

LOL! Why does that sound like it's gonna hurt when the universe holds a garage sale? Man I hope our galaxy goes for at least a few bucks...
 
Ok...

I'm too impatient to read through all of the posts, so I don't know if I'm repeating anyone here, or contradicting them for that matter. Here's what I think:

There is an explanation for everything. If there is something we can't explain, it is because our minds are not (yet?) capable of the thought processes required to comprehend the thing in question. Infinty, for example. We know what it means, but for the most part, cannot comprehend it. Sure, you can say "Well, it means it has no end" but try to fully grasp that concept. Think about it for awhile. It gets confusing, really.
 
Re: Re: Questions to hurt your brain....

Oblesklk said:
LOL! Why does that sound like it's gonna hurt when the universe holds a garage sale? Man I hope our galaxy goes for at least a few bucks...

SOMEthing tells me we're going to be in that big pink box with a sign that says...

MAKE ME AN OFFER!

😛
Joby
 
Cheshire Cat said:
If God truly is omnipotent and all powerful, does this mean he could....say...create a rock so massive that he himself could not move it? This takes more into account what being "all powerful" means. Could he create something so powerful that it excedes his own limitations? (if he has any that is, and even though I said "he", I dont deny the fact that it could possibly be female, or neither)
Originally posted by Oblesklk
But I can address this above quoted question. It can't be answered, because it uses flawed logic.
In essence, what you're asking is "Can X do something that X cannot do?" Which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't make a bit of sense 😀
Quite right, but that renders the original premise (omnipotence) invalid. The same applies to the question "If God is omniscient, can he ask himself a question which he can't answer?" It gets even worse if you combine 'omnipotent' with 'omniscient': "Can God create a question which he can't answer?"

All this leads back to the mathematical definition of infinity. Spoken mathematically, the amount of God's power and knowledge approaches infinity. It reaches infinity at a point which is out of our grasp. If God knows the future, for example, this would actually mean that everything in our world is strictly deterministic. In fact, the number of different possible futures is infinite at any given time. That's where the highly un-mathematical term 'belief' plays a major role. Like all of God's qualities, omniscience and omnipresence can't be cornered by human logic. You either believe in it, or you don't.

Things are a bit different with the term 'omnipresence'. Whereas no object can exist at the same location, at the same time, and in the same aspect as another object, there IS actually something that's omnipresent in our world: The laws of nature (including mathematics) are present in all locations, at the same time, and in the same aspect. So God could actually be identical with the laws of nature. BUT: As nobody can act against the laws of nature, nobody can actually commit a sin… :angel:

Belief and logic remain two highly incompatible components of our human nature, I'm afraid…😎
 
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