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Sobering thoughts on Theft, Trading, Reselling

id like to start this thread off with this thought. ebay. there have been huge discussions, even arguments already over the subject of people selling tickling videos on ebay (originals or copies) so im sure this is relevant.

today i decided to glance over what was for sale on ebay and i was shocked by a certain auction that had this written about the ticking video he/she was selling:

-------------------------------
The video was a purchase from eBay. The viewing quality is good; however, I can not guarantee that this is an original copy. I am starting the bid price low if any one is interested to buy it.
----------------------------

most would probably agree with me that when stating he/she "cannot guarantee", he/she more or less means, "its most likely not an original copy."
sigh.
thus we have the first installment of this thread of how the very customers of tickling video companies just might (and i said might) put the very tickling video companies they purchase from, out of business. by trading, reselling, making copies, etc.

its serious stuff. really. it is. if you love, i mean really love to see new tickling media being made, you have to give this serious thought. think of a time when maybe nothing new is made, by anyone, because only a few buy it, and the rest steal it. :wow:
 
Interesting topic...

The economics of this are fairly unique...can't think of another type of business that would run into this problem. When you buy a product, whether it's designer shoes or a house, you normally don't consider the creator of the items rights/problems when you decide to "dispose" of the bought item. However, there IS precedent in other entertainment material...when people began copying cassette tapes, the music industry trumpeted dire warnings of impending doom...didn't happen of course, but then again, they have an "audience" of many millions, not a few thousand. Therefore, you can't apply the economics of Mass Production to this area...which of course skews the picture badly in some peoples minds. These tapes become more along the lines of "limited production" pieces of artwork or plates....lol. Perhaps it's time to begin numbering the "run" and ID'ing each individual tape? Nah...adds too much to the cost...hmm...guess I'll sit back and watch some other geniuses solve this dilemma...sorry TIB, got no definitive answers or solutions up my sleeve! 🙂 Q
 
Just out of interest, what was the video in question?

As a point of interest, one of the tapes I recieved in the past from Real Tickling was on a standard video cassette (most are special short ones with special sleeves, but this had a normal sleeve). I'm not sure if the label was hand written or printed. Not that it made any difference to the quality, and I'm not knocking RT, but someone could well look at it and not know whether it's an original or not.

Unless he's selling several of the same tape, or several tapes at once, I don't really think he's likely to bring doom on the entire tickling industry. 🙂

There's also the point that a lot of people would buy a cheap copy of something they'd never have bought at full price.

It's like with CD's, if 5 million copied CD's are bought, that doesn't necessarily mean it's 5 million less sales for the CD companies.

LEB
 
I agree with TIB's estimation.
Reselling your personal collection is one thing, but engaging in copying video to resell is another matter. It is at least unethical, in violation of copyright as well as being damaging to the industry.

Respectfully Submitted,

DungeonMaster.
😉
 
tib, i dont have any solutions, although one things for sure that i can tell you. that is, you won't be able to stop trading or copying , be it on ebay or anywhere else. if people see a better deal, then they will go for it, regardless of any niceties they write here. its the way society works.

sorry.:sowrong:
 
leb and coolman thanks for your input. its good to hear your viewpoints. but i need to clarify myself as i may have not been clear as to why i started this thread.

im not asking for you or anyone to come up with a solution, as much as i am just wanting to see discussion on the issue, and share with you my perspective of where i see this heading in the future, and its consequences. 🙂

and i would love to hear viewpoints from some of the other tickling video vendors.............?
 
I'm glad that TIB is not looking for a solution, because I don't have one to give. I simply have a perspective on the potential consequences.
I shot a video some time back with a Playboy model. Part of our deal was that she could sell some of the footage on her site and keep all of the money. Months later she told me exactly how many copies she had sold. Again, she was able to keep all of the money, so she had no reason to lie. From people I've traded e-mails with over the net I have verified that several more copies are floating around then the number she had told me she sold. There is no doubt that people dub videos and sell them. It's easy to do it to small companies and get away with it. Does TIB have the time to hire Barnaby Jones to track down the culprits? Does TC Videos have the money to hire Johnny Cochran? No, which is why smaller companies like his are targeted.
The consequences will produce the following. The variety companies will stay in business because of the wide, albeit mediocre, spectrum of material they provide. The "Specialty" companies, meaning those that ONLY do tickling vids (meaning higher quality)will have to raise their prices in order to recoup expenses.
Bad because: vids can end up costing alot more.
Good because: if someone spends $50 or more on a mediocre vid , they won't go to that company again. There will be no more "hit or miss" factor. The Specialty companies will be forced to raise the stick even higher than before. Between Elke Jeinsen being in a vid, and Jenna Jameson tickled on Stern, I'd say that the stick has been raised to unprecedented levels already. Now it will go even higher. That's good for the few who will be able to afford these vids on a regular basis. It's bad for the guy who never copied anything and can't afford the higher rate.
There will be winners and losers.
 
WallStreet said:
Months later she told me exactly how many copies she had sold. Again, she was able to keep all of the money, so she had no reason to lie. From people I've traded e-mails with over the net I have verified that several more copies are floating around then the number she had told me she sold. There is no doubt that people dub videos and sell them.

Geez that is not only outright theft, it is a moral low on a human level. This amazes me becuase As much as I like tickling and watching it on the screen I've yet to stoop to illegally obtaining video tapes. Wallstreet out of 100 people how many would you guess do this? Take a guess. I'm interested in your opinion?
 
This debate raged on a while back, and I guess it started again. I even saw a video listed on Ebay a while back from Real Tickling, so I though, "I guess my boycott's over with." Now, they could probably break my boycott easily. They make a video with a girl in a dress or miniskirt with pantyhose on being tickled, and I wouldn't last. And I'd even admit to buying it so they could chuckle, because I'd be so happy, I wouldn't care.

And yet, that's my point, or, the point behind my point.

All the videos I see out there are starting to all look alike. Girl, in bikini, or nude, being tickled in some dark place.

If you don't like that setup, tough luck, because that's really all there is. If you are tired of stocks, too bad.

I don't buy videos from Real Tickling so much that I am angry we can't sell on Ebay, but more on the lines that they just don't make the videos I like anymore. They're all starting to look alike. I didn't participate in the whole celebrity tickling thing for that reason. It would be, celebrity, in bikini, getting tickled. No difference than any other model.

First off, where are all these pirated videos that have been lamented about for all this time? Yes, I agree, if a large number of copied videos, or even a small number, were sold on Ebay, it would bring companies down because the customers would only buy the cheaply made copies. But this is all theoretical. I typed in tickling the other day, I got a list of about 13 videos. In fact, everytime I type in tickling, there are between 5 and 15 videos listed. All different. None from Real Tickling, and usually only one or two from Magic Touch. Mainly they are from FM or defunct video companies that aren't around anymore.

The customers you guys have are loyal customers, and I dare say most if not all the members of this forum are loyal customers who would never look to buy a copy of a video. Maybe they don't buy videos because they don't see anything they like? That's why I haven't bought anything in almost a year. I'm running out of money, so if I buy a video, it better be good. If even I get this new job which pays more than my old one, I STILL will only buy what I want to buy. have my eye on a video right now, the newest one from...Foot Paradise.

So, I think this whole worry over copied videos is a myth. I'm not seeing anyone selling the same video 50 times. I think these guys have a lot of videos, and they're trying to get rid of them. I think some of those they purchased through Ebay, and are simply being honest and stating that this could be a copy, they just don't know. Video quality can degrade after a while, especially in the old videos shot on crappy cameras, and look like a copy. I sold a new FM concepts once, but it was SF-10, from a long time ago. The video quality was bad compared to today's videos, but since I did a lot of video work, I knew it was shot on either VHS or S-VHS, so that's why it looked crappy, almost like a copy. I knew it wasn't a copy, because I bought it straight from FM Concepts.

Second, speaking on that, I never see FM Concepts, Foot Paradise, Harmony Concepts, or the bigger companies complaining about this. They're not threatening to shut down. In fact, they seem to be growing and expanding. Harmony now has like 3 or 4 sites, FM Concepts has I think 5 or 6 now, and Foot Paradise just put out that video with 20 girls, and has a new site open up. They must be doing SOMETHING right.

No, there is not much that can be done to stop people from selling copies. But, you guys do have a huge one up on the "big" companies out there. Most of your customers are loyal. They won't go looking for a cheap copy. Many, like me, not only won't go looking for a cheap copy so that I won't hurt your respective company, but only demand quality, and I know I won't get quality with a copy. I want the best, so I only buy straight from the producers. Every video I've purchased from Real Tickling, Magic Touch, even Foot Paradise came straight from the company itself. I have never bought a video off Ebay, and only would if the company is out of business.

There is one solution. Expand your business. Make it so that no one would want a copy. Branch out. Become so big, you won't care if someone sells a copy. If you want to stay small, this will be a bad problem. If you grow, this will become peanuts, a mere annoyance.

Thats' why FM Concepts and Harmony don't complain. They produce so much, they have so much business, they don't bother. Expand your appeal, look and see what people want, then do that. If Real Tickling would do a site just on pantyhose and tickling, I'd subscribe in a heartbeat. FM Concepts is the ONLY company that has a site like that, but they use those ugly, baggy pantyhose, so I left after a while. What about costumes, plots, stories, different outfits, etc.? A site where you take stories people have posted and make videos based on those?

How about updating more? I subscribed to Real Tickling and Magic Touch, but they updated only a few times a week or month, so I left. It wasn't worth the money. I just left a pantyhose site I subscribed to, same reason. They once updated every other day, then they went to once a week. That's not worth $19.00, or $14.00 a month. FM Concepts updates twice a day, including Saturdays. Harmony doesn't update that often, but their videos are ART, they really make an effort. They actually list "directed by" and "story by" in their credits.

Why not advertise on the yahoo groups? All I ever see there is porn, porn, porn. In fact, why not start moving to videos where you tickle fully clothed or mostly clothed girls? There was just a thread about that recently, and Francois opened up a company about that recently. A LOT of people said they don't like porn. I don't know about anyone else, but I would love to start buying videos of girls, with clothes on, and not the tired old bikini, or nude, being tickled in stocks.

Advertising on the yahoo group, some of which contain over 5,000 members, would bring more, new people to the forum, and get you more customers, AND be a breath of fresh air from all the worthless spam and porn advertised there.

Go see Danni's harddrive for ideas. That is a webpage that is awesome, it's fun, it's porn, but there's a fun aspect that can be used in the tickling community, especially since a lot of there models are from FM COncepts. (Danni herself, Sydney Moon, Sadie Atkins, etc.) Look how different, how brighter and more colorful and more inventive they are from FM Concepts, yet so many models migrated over there. Roger Ebert mentioned them once in an article, I've seen her on television before, and they have I think about a MILLION members! (literally; I think they reached the million mark about a year ago.)

What are they doing right? I say, produce more stuff, broaden your horizons, expand your operations, and you won't care about these few copies, if anyone is even doing it.
 
mabus said:
I say, produce more stuff, broaden your horizons, expand your operations, and you won't care about these few copies, if anyone is even doing it.
good comments mabus. thanks. but tickling is all we love to do. its what we live for as far as fetishes go. we dont want to "broaden our horizons" to other fetishes (like toe sucking or men in bondage or blow jobs). we've always made only tickling videos and we will always make only tickling videos. one true fact is that even though we see ourselves on this forum as a huge worldwide group of tickle lovers, the tickling fetish population of the world (or at least the ones with internet and the ones that come out of the closet) is actually not very many people as far as possible customers who will purchase media. so when you are like us, and cater only to people who love tickling, its hard to sell enough tapes to make it work financially. (even though we've been accused of sleeping on piles and piles of $1000 bills at night, lol) believe me i do understand your points though. but its just gonna be tickling or nothing for us because we are true tickle lovers. we'll see what happens. 🙂
 
mabus said:
But this is all theoretical. I typed in tickling the other day, I got a list of about 13 videos. In fact, everytime I type in tickling, there are between 5 and 15 videos listed
at this moment there are 27 items listed on ebay for tickling. it doesn't matter if none of our videos are listed. im worried about the general tickling video industry as a whole. the fact cant be argued that its very tempting for someone to want to save $15 on a tickling video, and not buy it from the makers who need the income to proceed. that fact can't be argued. im not sure i can agree that its theoretical. its even worse when you take it a step further as Wallstreet commented on, where people make copies and re-sell them, or make a copy for themselves, and resell the original. know what i mean?🙂
 
Good topic, handled differently than past posts

First off, I'd be a liar if I said I haven't bought a couple of tickle videos from Ebay.
I've also sold my personal collection (magazines so far), no videos, yet. There's going to be a point where I don't want them all (I will die with all my Farrah and Priscella tic vids!) and I will sell them as a bargain when the day comes. But I wouldn't shoot my own brother in the foot with making copies of them. I'm a huge ebayer (not for tickling stuff) and I've seen the tickling videos that are usually offered (always curious on anything tickling related).

Sorry Mabus, but I have seen a bit of TC videos and MTP videos out there in the past. Right now there isn't and I suspect if any of the copying pirates are reading this post, they will stop for a while.

Twice I have been burned with a copy of an original. It pissed me off. And both times I let the vid companies know. They said, we'll look into it and never heard back from them.

I noticed a while back someone went far enough to copy the drawing from a Paradise Vision video and bought the exact cases used by them. How do I know they were copied? I saw 5 of the same video every week for almost 2 months. Then I noticed the price rise as many people were buying it. Look there are some classic tickle videos out there that I love but I wouldn't buy 20 copies of the same one!
I thought about letting Gabrielle know but in the past I have emailed her and it felt like I was bugging her.

The point really was well put by "Q", this is a unique situation/ for a unique tickling venue.
I wish I had a solution and it would suck when it came to a day when there were no more new videos from anyone anymore.

I believe you tickler n black on how you are true tickle fans. How you've interacted with us via posts and emails shows it to me. You can't please everyone either.

I agree to an extent with Mabus on the types of videos we are seeing the last couple of years... same routines but I don't mind as much cuz seeing in a new girl tickled in "same-ole scenerios" still can get to me! Those kinds of girls are getting tough to find I imagine.

DK

p.s.- Oh when I see your new associates name on posts, I want to roll my dice and see if I made my saving throws (nerd humor). 😉
No offense DM!
 
Guys, you are fooling yourselves if you think this
is not a big problem for the producers.
What's the incentive to buy when you know you can eventually
pick it up cheap 6 months down the road when someone is sick of it.

AND DONT PRETEND YOU ARE NOT SELLING COPIES.
WHEN YOU SELL THE ORIGINAL AFTER YOU HAVE COPIED IT OFF FOR YOURSELVES
YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE GUY WHO SELLS A COPY.
Well, actually you are, because the guy who sells the copy has balls.

I
 
Ummm gig1965,

SOME of us do know it's a big problem for the producers.

Also don't be accusing everyone of making a copy and selling the original. OK? GOT IT? MAKE SENSE? COOL.

DK
 
Pardon if this is old news

Many of the tapes I rent from my local Blockbuster have some kind of protection that is supposed to prevent pirated copies from being made. Image quality suffers but if piracy is hurting business so much…
 
I am not accusing any one individual....i don't know any of
you. But i'll bet a lot of originals are sold after the
owner copies it for himself.
The guilty know who they are. And as you know, what we do in
life echoes throughout eternity. Their Karma will suffer.

That said, you must admit there has been an awful lot of naive
commentary on this topic. Some of it not merely rediculous, but
embarrassingly rediculous.
 
I hold the opinion that when you buy something you own it, and you have the right to re-sell it. However, I also think that when it comes to this tickling business, which has a small audience and a few producers of new materials, that it's simply improper to re-sell.
For the producers it's mostly a labor of love and it's only fair if they get something back for it.
I have bought some ticklingparadise tapes, realtickling streaming vids and realtickling 5 minute clips, but i would never distribute them. Buy them yourself! 😀

PS. I'm talking about re-selling...copying copyrighted material is of course illegal, no matter what the medium and subject.
 
I don't believe in that Ying Yang and Karma stuff.
Nothing ever comes back in my side of the city.
Enough of my brooding manner...


In what was stated in this thread, I only know from the facts I've gathered myself, that there is a lot of selling of copied material.
So I agree to that.

DK
 
There can be no doubt to the truth of that, brother.
Also, i do belive that when you own a tape it's yours
to sell, legally speaking, but it hurts the little guys.
I personally won't trade.
 
Well, I'm going to end my boycott of Real Tickling, now that TIB stated his view this time without seeming Gestapo like or like he was trying to be a control freak.

Of course, this is still a question I have for everyone commenting here, and anyone else who wants to chime in: If I buy a tape, and don't want it anymore, how do I get rid of it fairly? I don't want to just throw it away, though that is an option. But in that case, hell, I'll just keep it. The reasons people get rid of tapes is not to hurt any company, they're just tired of them, or they find they have too many, or they just need the money. I'm in that last bracket, and it's a testament to all we're saying. I would never copy a tape and sell it, and right now I'm broke. I'm sure those who are doing this copying are certainly not strapped for cash. Yet, I still wouldn't stoop to that level. (I've hocked most of my mainstream VCR tapes at pawn shops, and CD's, now I'm trying to sell my books.)
There aren't any jobs in south Louisiana anywhere! My God, WalMart isn't even hiring! WalMart is always hiring! I regret going to school all those years. BUT, I may as well give me talent and ideas to you guys, so you can profit. And then if I ever get a job, I'll buy the tapes you make, and then it'll be worth it! BUt enough of my rantings...

On to address my earlier post, I still won't buy any tapes any time soon, because I have no money, and there's nothing out there that I like, yet.

Now, TIB, you said that you just do tickling videos, after I mentioned about broading your horizons. But you HAVE expanded. When I had a subscription to your website (and Jeffs) there were categories for pantyhose and heels, barefeet, bondage, models, and just tickling. Theer are certain levels or categories of fetish out there. Most on the net is the "woman with her legs up in the air looking teed off" category, as I call it. Low quality, darkly lit, only done for a profit and that's all. I put the male bondage, sucking, etc. areas into that category. There's enough of that out there already. Most people here, from a few recent posts, stated their dislike for that.

Then there's tickling, and everything related to that...by that I mean, those earlier groups merged into each other. But dangling, barefeet, pantyhose, socks, light bondage associated with tickling all can center around tickling -ie: they all eventually lead up to tickling. That's why I put them all together. The girl is posing on a chair or in her office in pantyhose, because it leads up to her coworker coming in and tickling her on those feet while in that chair, or whatever. Or, the girl coming home and taking her shoes off and walking around in socks or barefeet or hose will eventually get tickled after she sits done in her recliner.

I think the frustration is, having to wait maybe once a year, if even that, to buy a video to each of our liking. Like, for example, you had Sydra in a recent video. She had a great laugh, and I loved the video clip where she was in the chair while Sandra tickled her feet. And I thought, if only she had pantyhose on, it would have been perfect. Or other guys may have said, if only she had socks on, that would have been great. How hard would it be to do a video with hose on, then pause the camera, take the hose off, then shoot it with barefeet, then pause it again, and shoot i with socks on, for those who like that?

If there was a site that would offer the RealTickling videos with like, one with hose, one bare, and one socks, and I don't know what other's like, I would have bought several of the past videos that you guys produced. I'm trying to solve the problem of only producing for a broad, but limited audience. FM Concepts has succeeded in doing that, they have one site for pantyhose videos and pictures, left the main site for barefeet, and then even added one for socks.

The misc. pics of just the girls posing in hose or barefeet I kepe mentioning would add to your audience who hold that interest, because I know there isn't much of that out there. Basically, I think people want to see "natural" pictures of woman, not the hardcore porn anymore. There are actually quiet a few sites with that area in mind, but most are just pictures taken in public places, they are low quality, the women don't even know that the pictures are being taken, on and on. People here tell stories about being in situations where their coworker walks around the office in barefeet, or pantyhose, or kicks her feet up on the desk or chair, and how they love it, yet there are really no sites like that out there...just normal, everyday life that is more exciting than the hardcore crap out there. And, obviously, since your mainstay is tickling, all these situations would lead to the girls being tickled after they dive the guys crazy by kicking their feet up on the desk or sofa.

I'm talking something that would take a few minutes to do, also. You could tell the girl to walk to the desk or chair she will be tickled in, that has already been lit, lounge for about a minute, take her soes off, put them back on, have the tickler enter the scene, and have at it. You could get a set of 30 or 40 shots in only a few minutes, and still save most of the time for tickling.

Two, a see a lot of little video clips on your webpage, but don't see any full length videos of them. Some of those, (yes, even barefoot ones) I'd buy, but they aren't listed. Like, Rachelle and Susan on that bed, or all the other stuff with those two, or Sydra and Sandra in the hotel room. And there's a lot of videos that don't feature photo sets, like Nurse Gone Bad, most of the earlier videos, etc. There's just so much extra stuff that I wish I'd see, and would love to buy, that's just not there, but looks like it could have been done. Like, there are photos, but no video, or video, but no photo sets. Why not do everything, then offer it all to those who want it?

There's also a lot of subjects that I've never seen done.
-I've never seen any, none whatsoever, wedding tickling pics. Brides, guests, anything. There are whole groups that are into reception pics, and they would eat that stuff up. You could gain a LOT of new subscribers and customers with that stuff. I've got an old wedding dress I found at a garage sale a few years back. I was going to use it a a costume for the elf queen, but decided on a meaner looking elf instead, so scrapped the idea. I can send it to you free of charge if you'd like to use it...but I need a job first, so I can pay for the shipping cost....

-I've never seen a lady in nice, flat shoes being tickled. You always see heels, but never low heels or flats.
You never see sandals that often either, sandals with heels, with or without hose.

-superhero stories is something that doesn't really interest me, but obviously there are a lot of people who like it, since so many cartoons and stories and fakes feature them. Why not try some of those? Harmony has a site dedicated to that, so you can give them some competition.

-I rarely see a video where a girl is tickled in socks, as I've mentioned earlier. I don't know if I'd go for that, but I know people like that.

-I know some people like simple plots in videos, though some don't. I wouldn't mind seeing more of those.

-I just think, and from the people whom complained about the hard core porn, and the people are excited about Francois new videos, that folks are looking for something...CLASSY! That's the word I've been trying to grasp all this time. They want something new, nice, well done, light hearted, even.

Basically, if you can draw in all these poeple who like this other stuff, and tell them, "hey, we offer the things you like, but we also have a lot of tickling realted stuff," they will join for their area, but maybe, hopefully, you will either discover new ticklephiles, or convert some people to us.
 
Of all the options to dump vids, the local stores is going to
do the LEAST damage to the producers.
And you never know, someone may rent it, discover the company
that produced it, and order more.
 
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