I know in the last couple of wars, many Americans have said that while they support the troops they didn't believe in the war. What if German had said in 1939 that he didn't support the invasion of Poland, but he supported the German troops. Would this have been OK?
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Support the troops?
- Thread starter Iggy pop
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Oddjob0226
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Schindler and other like him, in a way, kind of did that.
august spies
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well it depends on what supporting your troops means. troops dont make policy decisions, some support their actions, some just do what they are told, and some are against them.
supporting the troops to me means bring them out of harms way and out of the way of harming others.
supporting troops to others means send them into occupy a foriegn nation illegally and expose them to uranium and use them as tools for resource extraction. which isnt really supporting the troops.
supporting the troops to me means bring them out of harms way and out of the way of harming others.
supporting troops to others means send them into occupy a foriegn nation illegally and expose them to uranium and use them as tools for resource extraction. which isnt really supporting the troops.
D
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i see it as a cop-out
saying "i support the troops" is a cop-out. hell if you're against a war, then say so! have the courage of your convictions. don't be wishy-washy and say "oh, war is bad... but i support out troops".
please, get off the fence, take a stand. you are only fooling your selves if you think you're pulling the wool over the eyes of those who have made a comitment already. i respect people who stand up to be counted, even if they are on the other side! this "i support the troops" stuff is "hedging your bet", that way you can be on the winning side no matter who ends up being correct.
steve
saying "i support the troops" is a cop-out. hell if you're against a war, then say so! have the courage of your convictions. don't be wishy-washy and say "oh, war is bad... but i support out troops".
please, get off the fence, take a stand. you are only fooling your selves if you think you're pulling the wool over the eyes of those who have made a comitment already. i respect people who stand up to be counted, even if they are on the other side! this "i support the troops" stuff is "hedging your bet", that way you can be on the winning side no matter who ends up being correct.
steve
ticklishbbw
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Re: i see it as a cop-out
Not everyone that says "i support the troops, but not the war" use it as a cop out. I for one am very much opposed to the war, and very vocal about it. When I say I support the troops, I mean I want them home safe and sound. I've participated in several community activities to help provide our troops with things from home and other necessities--I also consider that supporting the troops. I understand they are doing a job, something they knew was a possiblity when they signed on, and I do not hold them responsible for the bad decisions of our president. (commence flaming now!) You can support the troops, but NOT support the war.
tbbw
areenactor said:
Not everyone that says "i support the troops, but not the war" use it as a cop out. I for one am very much opposed to the war, and very vocal about it. When I say I support the troops, I mean I want them home safe and sound. I've participated in several community activities to help provide our troops with things from home and other necessities--I also consider that supporting the troops. I understand they are doing a job, something they knew was a possiblity when they signed on, and I do not hold them responsible for the bad decisions of our president. (commence flaming now!) You can support the troops, but NOT support the war.
tbbw
sole seeker
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I am really surprised at your response areenactor, because I know you were in the service. 
I guess the rest of you guys haven't been under fire. If it were in my power, I would put the lot of you "in the trenches" and see if it changes your perspective on what supporting the troops really means.
Personally, I don't like the idea of my friends dying for nothing. If I'm risking my life for you I'd be happy if you'd just say "thank you" and then shut up. Most of you people sound like you're members of the Jane Fonda Political Fan Club.
Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.
I guess the rest of you guys haven't been under fire. If it were in my power, I would put the lot of you "in the trenches" and see if it changes your perspective on what supporting the troops really means.
Personally, I don't like the idea of my friends dying for nothing. If I'm risking my life for you I'd be happy if you'd just say "thank you" and then shut up. Most of you people sound like you're members of the Jane Fonda Political Fan Club.
Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.
D
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sole seeker said:I am really surprised at your response areenactor, because I know you were in the service.
I guess the rest of you guys haven't been under fire. If it were in my power, I would put the lot of you "in the trenches" and see if it changes your perspective on what supporting the troops really means.
Personally, I don't like the idea of my friends dying for nothing. If I'm risking my life for you I'd be happy if you'd just say "thank you" and then shut up. Most of you people sound like you're members of the Jane Fonda Political Fan Club.
Just my opinion of course, I could be wrong.
hi sole. i know, i don't sound as pendantic as usual, on this topic.
my reasoning is simple; all these people saying "oh my yes, i support our troops... but not that moron in the white house", they are just sitting on the fence, if you will. they are hedgeing their bets, so they'll look progressive, and compassionate. and no matter which side turns out to be right (was the war needed) they'll look like they were on the "winning" side all along. these type of fair weather friend/supporters make me sick!
yes i was in the military, and saw combat (we'll have to talk over a couple beers one day)so i can say as a trooper either back me, and my comrades all the way, or shut the hell up! keep your half measures!
steve
Roseblossom
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Listen
Guess he didn't have a chance (or surely he wouldn't be repeating the very same comments he posted before!)
to read this response:
Nicely said, BBW
Guess he didn't have a chance (or surely he wouldn't be repeating the very same comments he posted before!)
to read this response:
ticklishbbw said:
Nicely said, BBW
ticklishbbw
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Re: Listen
I agree, sure doesn't seem like it, and thanks.
tbbw
Roseblossom said:Guess he didn't have a chance (or surely he wouldn't be repeating the very same comments he posted before!)
to read this response:
Nicely said, BBW
I agree, sure doesn't seem like it, and thanks.
tbbw
D
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i read your comments tbbw, and roseblossom
i read your post, and discounted it, as just another empty claime.
i posted the same words again, in response to a query by sole seeker.
what those of you who've never worn the uniform fail to understand, is that sitting back here all safe, and snug, and secure, yes, and smug; is that your pat on the back with crossed fingers, gives hope to the enemy, and lowers the moral of our valient troop.
when are you going to realize you can't have it both ways?!
you can't slam the leaders, and the country, and support the soldiers at the same time. i know you know what i'm saying is correct, too bad you're not willing to admit it. there's an old saying "the truth shall set you free".
steve
i read your post, and discounted it, as just another empty claime.
i posted the same words again, in response to a query by sole seeker.
what those of you who've never worn the uniform fail to understand, is that sitting back here all safe, and snug, and secure, yes, and smug; is that your pat on the back with crossed fingers, gives hope to the enemy, and lowers the moral of our valient troop.
when are you going to realize you can't have it both ways?!
you can't slam the leaders, and the country, and support the soldiers at the same time. i know you know what i'm saying is correct, too bad you're not willing to admit it. there's an old saying "the truth shall set you free".
steve
ticklishbbw
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Re: i read your comments tbbw, and roseblossom
Actually, you don't know. Because in my opinion you are not correct. You are also making assumptions that I know nothing about what's it's like to be in the military.
I'm also not looking "to have it both ways." I'm against the war in Iraq, pure and simple. I just don't believe that being against the war, and respecting and supporting the troops have to be at odds with each other.
Also, I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong. Too bad you can't do the same, or at least be open minded enough to listen to other opinions. In this situation there is no right or wrong, just differing opinions.
areenactor said:
Actually, you don't know. Because in my opinion you are not correct. You are also making assumptions that I know nothing about what's it's like to be in the military.
I'm also not looking "to have it both ways." I'm against the war in Iraq, pure and simple. I just don't believe that being against the war, and respecting and supporting the troops have to be at odds with each other.
Also, I have no problem admiting when I'm wrong. Too bad you can't do the same, or at least be open minded enough to listen to other opinions. In this situation there is no right or wrong, just differing opinions.
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WraithTickler
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I'll start out by saying I'm in favor of the reconstruction effort in Iraq and Afgahnistan, supported the war there while it was in progress, and will continue to support efforts as they continue.
To the troops, they are out there risking their lives. You can hold a basic empathy and compassion for them, recognize that people you know, family, and friends are over there. Even if you despise the current situation in Iraq, a certain regard for the troops should be given. Ticklishbbw's first post on the subject does a better job of explaining the reasons why than I can give.
Last term when the war was starting, we had protesters on campus, and they were protesting ROTC. What a bunch of morons. Even if one cannot support Bush's actions, harassing people in ROTC and calling them baby killers does no one any good. Many of them are not overly happy about being conscripted, having only joined ROTC for the scholarships it can provide. I've found many opponents of the war and there after holding such a massive anti military/Bush slant that it removes any shread of common courtisy.
There are varying levels of support and degrees of respect due for those with their lives on the line. I think a basic level should be given, moral support if you will, at the very minimal, and depending on your own views, it can be as August rights, praying for a safe return home, to encouraging them and actively taking means to help them as they do their duty overseas. I believe they will be there for a few years. Bush never said that this would be a quick effort, and having acted, it is our duty as a nation to remain and assist in the reconstruction since we have committed ourselves to this cause. To pull out now would dishonor those who have died and truly made their deaths in vain.
To the troops, they are out there risking their lives. You can hold a basic empathy and compassion for them, recognize that people you know, family, and friends are over there. Even if you despise the current situation in Iraq, a certain regard for the troops should be given. Ticklishbbw's first post on the subject does a better job of explaining the reasons why than I can give.
Last term when the war was starting, we had protesters on campus, and they were protesting ROTC. What a bunch of morons. Even if one cannot support Bush's actions, harassing people in ROTC and calling them baby killers does no one any good. Many of them are not overly happy about being conscripted, having only joined ROTC for the scholarships it can provide. I've found many opponents of the war and there after holding such a massive anti military/Bush slant that it removes any shread of common courtisy.
There are varying levels of support and degrees of respect due for those with their lives on the line. I think a basic level should be given, moral support if you will, at the very minimal, and depending on your own views, it can be as August rights, praying for a safe return home, to encouraging them and actively taking means to help them as they do their duty overseas. I believe they will be there for a few years. Bush never said that this would be a quick effort, and having acted, it is our duty as a nation to remain and assist in the reconstruction since we have committed ourselves to this cause. To pull out now would dishonor those who have died and truly made their deaths in vain.
august spies
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to pull out now would would actually save more lives, iraqi and american whom are being killed every day. bush can not pull out now because he has not fully invented a puppet government and his control over reasources is not complete. (he even gave one contract to an israeli corporation, which i heard iraqis are very happy about)
obeying orders does not and should not make you immune from critizcism that was laid down in law at nuremburg. i do work with demilitarization and have friends who were and our in the military, and most are in because they are bribed with college money, which is provided for free in most other industrialized nations. the politics of the government and the military high command and even mid command whom control the way troops are education is very right wing and biased beyond belief. so i disagree with you when you say an rotc isnt a fair protest target, as long as those protesters are not soley targerting rotc.
obeying orders does not and should not make you immune from critizcism that was laid down in law at nuremburg. i do work with demilitarization and have friends who were and our in the military, and most are in because they are bribed with college money, which is provided for free in most other industrialized nations. the politics of the government and the military high command and even mid command whom control the way troops are education is very right wing and biased beyond belief. so i disagree with you when you say an rotc isnt a fair protest target, as long as those protesters are not soley targerting rotc.
D
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targeting rotc kids
my 16 y.o. daughter is in high school rotc. yes she plans on going through college, and medical school via college rotc/military.
that does not give any one the right to assualt her.
just such an incident occured last spring to her though. there was some half assed high school anti-war protest going on, and she had to walk through it to get to her next class. (gee, what a notion, going to classes when in school) as she made her way through the loosers, one tripped her, and another took her garrison cover. and they began to call her names, and one then pushed her. BIG MISTAKE!
SHE TORN INTO THE PAIR OF THEM! she head butted one in the face, and used the others head as a battering ram to dent in a locker.
the school officals understood, and suspended the other two, as they attacked her. but she got a royal ass chewing buy the comander of the rotc unit! it's against the rules to fight while in the navy uniform. the master chief, and petty officer later shook her hand and mine. we've been close since. lol
steve
my 16 y.o. daughter is in high school rotc. yes she plans on going through college, and medical school via college rotc/military.
that does not give any one the right to assualt her.
just such an incident occured last spring to her though. there was some half assed high school anti-war protest going on, and she had to walk through it to get to her next class. (gee, what a notion, going to classes when in school) as she made her way through the loosers, one tripped her, and another took her garrison cover. and they began to call her names, and one then pushed her. BIG MISTAKE!
SHE TORN INTO THE PAIR OF THEM! she head butted one in the face, and used the others head as a battering ram to dent in a locker.
the school officals understood, and suspended the other two, as they attacked her. but she got a royal ass chewing buy the comander of the rotc unit! it's against the rules to fight while in the navy uniform. the master chief, and petty officer later shook her hand and mine. we've been close since. lol
steve
Oddjob0226
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Support the war or against the war, if the Arabs themselves ever solved one of their own problems without something blowing up they'd have to stop the presses over at Ripley's Believe It Or Not and The Guniess Book o' World Records.....
august spies said:
I doubt if the Americans pulled out now it would save more lives. If America did pull out, most likely Iraq would be engulfed in a civil war which will take a hell of lot more lives. It looks like we are stuck there for awhile. Lucky us.
so...
So, your saying, that because we might not support the war, the reasons why the government ordered the war(which are now seriously becoming questionable), and/or the man who started the war, we can not support those who just happen to be the pawns in this little game, being sent to war, despite there belief in it being right, or not, because they happened to choose this particuler carreer?
Myself, i support losing as few lives as possible, be it American or otherwise. I find it interesting that we have many "Support the troops" comments, yet much less "Suport the innocent Iraq people being killed" comments.
So, your saying, that because we might not support the war, the reasons why the government ordered the war(which are now seriously becoming questionable), and/or the man who started the war, we can not support those who just happen to be the pawns in this little game, being sent to war, despite there belief in it being right, or not, because they happened to choose this particuler carreer?
Myself, i support losing as few lives as possible, be it American or otherwise. I find it interesting that we have many "Support the troops" comments, yet much less "Suport the innocent Iraq people being killed" comments.
august spies
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im sorry your young imperialist in training got tripped, but there are more serious concerns in the world for me.
you say you cant disagree with the government and support the troops. I say you cant agree with the government and support the troops.
i think history and facts prove the latter.
you say you cant disagree with the government and support the troops. I say you cant agree with the government and support the troops.
i think history and facts prove the latter.
Oddjob0226
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sole seeker said:
Her again.
Probably since so many people have been repeatedly fed so much duplicity from the heads of government in the way of:
* The Gulf of Tonkin....
* Secret mining of harbors....
* Radiation experimentrs on prisoners and orphans in the 50s...
* Relocation camps of American citizens in the 40s...
* Bill 'not having sexual relations' with Monica...
* The Watergate break in...
* Iran/Contra...
* Bush Sr. saying he never met with Noriaga... and then such pictures surface....
*Bush Sr. toasting Ferdinad Marcos for his dedication to demcracy....
*China getting a Most Favored Nation trade status after Tienamin Square...
*Operation Desert Storm is not about oil it's about freedom (then) / Yes, it was about oil (now)....
*Democratic reforms in Kuwait...
* A bungled event in Waco inspiring former U.S. military men to attack the citizens of their own country.....
- all of which came from Democrats AND Republicans, liberals AND conservatives.....
-
That people are maybe coming to realize Sean Penn on his worst day isn't going to get anyone killed or tax their balls off. No matter who you support or vote for, bigger men on the various diffderent sides that can't be touched ALWAYS get us all into these situations, then they demand that we chose a side; if the wrong side is chosen we become evil.
"Support me or shut up." On both sides. Utterly un-American. Apathy is safe and feels good, so I'm sticking with it.
General Zod
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august spies said:im sorry your young imperialist in training got tripped, but there are more serious concerns in the world for me.
That statement is low even for you august spies Sad when a person has to insult a child of another person
sole seeker
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Yeah, General, but I'm glad AS expressed this opinion. A statement like that speaks volumes about the person who said it.august spies said:
OddJob - Talk about a great user-name!
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Support the troops
I feel that because the troops are our fellow Americans, our brothers, sisters, cousins, etc., that we can certainly support them in many ways, regardless of whether or not you agree with their commander in chief. You can send things like food to them, although I don't recommend dairy. Probably the best things to send would be letters. Letters of support, letters to soldiers telling them you hope and pray for their safe return home.
I myself can't knock the popular notion of supporting the troops. Not after what happened in the seventies when the Vietnam vets came home and were treated like shit, after fighting a horrendous war for years. Blame the Presidents and the Secretaries of Defense, not the poor slobs drafted into a war they had no choice in fighting.
Jane Fonda will ever be labeled a traitor for her 1972 trip to Hanoi where she participated in the communist propoganda. That was way beyond naive. She wins the Stupid Bitch of the Century Award hands down for that.
So if it is in vogue to support the troops, if only by word of mouth, then at least they'll receive a worm welcome upon their return, as well as consideration for employment.
I feel that because the troops are our fellow Americans, our brothers, sisters, cousins, etc., that we can certainly support them in many ways, regardless of whether or not you agree with their commander in chief. You can send things like food to them, although I don't recommend dairy. Probably the best things to send would be letters. Letters of support, letters to soldiers telling them you hope and pray for their safe return home.
I myself can't knock the popular notion of supporting the troops. Not after what happened in the seventies when the Vietnam vets came home and were treated like shit, after fighting a horrendous war for years. Blame the Presidents and the Secretaries of Defense, not the poor slobs drafted into a war they had no choice in fighting.
Jane Fonda will ever be labeled a traitor for her 1972 trip to Hanoi where she participated in the communist propoganda. That was way beyond naive. She wins the Stupid Bitch of the Century Award hands down for that.
So if it is in vogue to support the troops, if only by word of mouth, then at least they'll receive a worm welcome upon their return, as well as consideration for employment.
theallknowing1
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Re: i read your comments tbbw, and roseblossom
I don't mean to be cold but this "holy reverence" for troops has gone on too far. These people made a CAREER CHOICE, at least a good portion of them because they either can't do skilled jobs or are looking for an easy way out. If you are not in either of these two catagories this post is not directed at you and I do have respect for you. However if you are in either of the above categories I have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY or respect for you.
areenactor said:
I don't mean to be cold but this "holy reverence" for troops has gone on too far. These people made a CAREER CHOICE, at least a good portion of them because they either can't do skilled jobs or are looking for an easy way out. If you are not in either of these two catagories this post is not directed at you and I do have respect for you. However if you are in either of the above categories I have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY or respect for you.
Re: Re: i read your comments tbbw, and roseblossom
Let me guess. You've never served your country in the Armed Forces, have you? It shows. What we're expressing is not holy reverence, it's national pride and gratitude. Regardless of their reasons for enlisting, they are over there doing the job. All volunteer, buddy. No draft. For that alone we owe them thanks. And at the risk of this coming as a total shock to you , I'm convinced those troops and the rest of us that support them will get along fine without your respect and sympathy. You might want to save it for yourself, because I don't imagine you'll get much of it from others.theallknowing1 said:
Re: Support the troops...
I think you peeps are quibbling aboot two very different questions (as usual 😛 ).
Lemme try to explain:
Most of you are asking us to differentiate b/w supporting the troops in their directive/purpose over in Iraq and support for the troops as fellow human beings, fellow Americans, brothers/sisters, etc. - which is fine.
Vernacular dictates, however, if you were to ask someone on the street, "Do you support the troops in Iraq?", 9/10 I think would assume you are asking if you support the war in Iraq - nothing more - since waging war and sending troops are pretty much synonymous to the average joe.
Hope this helps.🙂
I'll just sit back now and enjoy the spectacle. Please resume taking potshots at each other; please keep all limbs inside the forum for the duration of this thread.
Cheers.😀
I think you peeps are quibbling aboot two very different questions (as usual 😛 ).
Lemme try to explain:
Most of you are asking us to differentiate b/w supporting the troops in their directive/purpose over in Iraq and support for the troops as fellow human beings, fellow Americans, brothers/sisters, etc. - which is fine.
Vernacular dictates, however, if you were to ask someone on the street, "Do you support the troops in Iraq?", 9/10 I think would assume you are asking if you support the war in Iraq - nothing more - since waging war and sending troops are pretty much synonymous to the average joe.
Hope this helps.🙂
I'll just sit back now and enjoy the spectacle. Please resume taking potshots at each other; please keep all limbs inside the forum for the duration of this thread.
Cheers.😀
