sweet goth girl ..2!

[kingmidrif]

for a change ive decided to put this one in here rather than the anime forum,
its one of my own characters, who still has no name, being tickled
simple as that, enjoy.

 

[MTJpub]

Great work!

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

 

[Fairfeather]

Veeerryy nice! Great rendering job...especially her hair. 😎

 

[Tomato_Dragon]

Very cool work. I always thought tickling a goth girl would be a riot just because they try so hard to be depressed, and loathing life and never smile. Quick fix for that

 

[shock]

Now that's an excellent pic! The hair looks amazing. And she's got such a sweet navel. 🙂

 

[grippedchimp]

Oh you know she's happy... she may not crack a smile, but she's crying herself towards one! Excellent stuff! Looking forward to seeing more of her, whatever her name is!

 

[Darth Vegeta]

beautiful!

Simply BEAUTIFUL! Do you have more work like that? And I love the character... she's cute and cuddly.

 

[AphxA]

great work!

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Again, your skills are very impressive, and the color jobs are even more impressive than that. However, the critique which no one else is willing to give (please don't take it to heart)-

She looks like a pregnant cabbage patch kid with the eyes of Smeagol from Lord of the Rings.

I'm sure this wasn't the look you were going for, but thats what it looks like to me. But part of a good, honest critique is offering advice or suggestions also. With that said, I think doing these things will keep this from happening again if you so desire-

1.) She looks pregnant or like she has round stomach.

To correct this, simply draw her more toned. If you meant for it to appear that her back is arched in this picture and perhaps thats why her stomach sticks out, then that look can still effectively be achieved by creating contour on her stomach. How you draw the line of her stomach, her ribcage, etc., will change the look to what you want/need.

2.) The expression on her face is up in the air. I can't tell whether shes sad, happy, or ready to laugh. She looks like she might be sick with how you drew the lips, eyebrows, and the plumpness of her cheeks, they look almost swollen. These parts of the face are very key to the expression on a character's face and if drawn in an ambigious way can mislead the viewer. While we know this is a tickling picture, if the hands tickling her were gone there would be no way for anyone else to tell what this picture is about. Alot of different things could come time mind.

So I'd suggest this-

Don't over-express the character. I feel you put TOO much expression or emphasis on her face that it takes away from the picture. So simply perhaps draw her cheeks less plump, don't curve her bottom eyelids so much (thats adds to the puffyness of the cheeks), try drawing the lips in such a way that the expression is clear. While her nose and lips give her a cute mumpsckin(sp?) look and give her a cute 'pouting' sort of look, it leaves her expression undeterminable.

You overexagerated her tears. While some people may very well cry when being tickled, they won't be flowing a river, even in anime (unless its one of those cute SD Chibi scenes which are supposed to look like that). So perhaps next time there are tears, you might not draw them so pronounced.

Her eyebrows make her look confused. If she is trying to hold back the laughter (which is what I'm assuming you were going for), her eyebrows wouldn't look so loose. They would be slighted or greatly tightened depending on the level/method of tickling or ticklishness on the part of the ticklee.

I hope this helps. 🙂

 

[Battousai]

Very cute indeed! I wish I could draw half as well as most of the people here...but mine haven't looked right since I had this operation on my shoulder. ^^x;

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Again, your skills are very impressive, and the color jobs are even more impressive than that. However, the critique which no one else is willing to give (please don't take it to heart)-

She looks like a pregnant cabbage patch kid with the eyes of Smeagol from Lord of the Rings.

I'm sure this wasn't the look you were going for, but thats what it looks like to me. But part of a good, honest critique is offering advice or suggestions also. With that said, I think doing these things will keep this from happening again if you so desire-

1.) She looks pregnant or like she has round stomach.

To correct this, simply draw her more toned. If you meant for it to appear that her back is arched in this picture and perhaps thats why her stomach sticks out, then that look can still effectively be achieved by creating contour on her stomach. How you draw the line of her stomach, her ribcage, etc., will change the look to what you want/need.

2.) The expression on her face is up in the air. I can't tell whether shes sad, happy, or ready to laugh. She looks like she might be sick with how you drew the lips, eyebrows, and the plumpness of her cheeks, they look almost swollen. These parts of the face are very key to the expression on a character's face and if drawn in an ambigious way can mislead the viewer. While we know this is a tickling picture, if the hands tickling her were gone there would be no way for anyone else to tell what this picture is about. Alot of different things could come time mind.

So I'd suggest this-

Don't over-express the character. I feel you put TOO much expression or emphasis on her face that it takes away from the picture. So simply perhaps draw her cheeks less plump, don't curve her bottom eyelids so much (thats adds to the puffyness of the cheeks), try drawing the lips in such a way that the expression is clear. While her nose and lips give her a cute mumpsckin(sp?) look and give her a cute 'pouting' sort of look, it leaves her expression undeterminable.

You overexagerated her tears. While some people may very well cry when being tickled, they won't be flowing a river, even in anime (unless its one of those cute SD Chibi scenes which are supposed to look like that). So perhaps next time there are tears, you might not draw them so pronounced.

Her eyebrows make her look confused. If she is trying to hold back the laughter (which is what I'm assuming you were going for), her eyebrows wouldn't look so loose. They would be slighted or greatly tightened depending on the level/method of tickling or ticklishness on the part of the ticklee.

I hope this helps. 🙂

You ever think maybe he doesnt want to change anything about it and it and he are just fine the way they are? This is quite possibly one of the best original pieces to come to this forum since Fairfeather debued and all you can do is tell him what was wrong with it?? My god man...lets see you do something like this with that much realistic color and detail and than you can critizise and disect it all you want....

After completely failing to reach and understanding with you via E-mail I chose to just ignore your posts all together, but this was going WAY to far....how the hell do you walk with balls that huge??

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

"I think the viewers/fans need to open up and be more honest and tell us what you think, even if it might not be what we want to hear. Whats wrong about this (the situation) is alot of artists have been conditioned to accept nothing but compliments and well wishes.

Anything else that deviates from that is considered hurtful, snide, or wrong. Its as if no one wants to hear anything else when the other stuff is very important as well and an anti-critiquing shield has been raised in defense.

The artists also taking in all these positive comments and sometimes (and I've seen it happen) they think their artwork doesn't need to get better, that because others are only praising it, that there should be no desire to improve.

They have created a false sense of self in their art. Some artists live off of the praise they get from others, and when they finally hear something they weren't expecting they take it really personally and that drives others to sympathize with them. So much so that the person(s) critiquing are the 'bad guys'.

Case in point- alot of artists, writers, and poets have become too soft and are simply not conditioned to accept constructive criticism or helpful advice from people (whom I'm assuming know what they are talking about).

So I think things need to be shaken up around here. It may be rough and hard for some people to accept the critiquing at first, but eventually they'll thank me (whether directly or in their minds) for suggesting this be brought about. They will be able to handle whatever someone may throw at them. Combine this with the strength they get from positive feedback (which shouldn't be predeterminded because of friendship, etc.) only builds a stronger character in a person."

- Me, on the matter of critiquing artwork

My point grows ever stronger my dear CC. This is artwork, no matter how you see it. As a viewer, especially another artist, I should have a right to critique the work. Thats why he and everyone else posts artwork, so it can get an honest opinion and feedback right? If you say no, then it only goes to show what has become of the art community no matter where it is. Critiquing isn't wrong, mean, or snide, and it is a useful tool in helping an artist both see their faults through the eyes of someone else, and it also gives them different insights into how their artwork is percieved at any given time. It can and often is also a source of inspiration, and not belittlement.

I meant well by what I have said here, and theres nothing you can say or do to change that. If you want to go on a crusade to try and police me, go right ahead. But I am acting within what I feel is expected of artwork. No one else is willing to do it because no one else has the time, the desire or the courage to. I know very well how critiquing in a place where no critiquing exists might make me look bad, but I don't care what such people think. Its not my job to care. The job I have taken up is to look at good talent, which kingmidriff IS by the way, and comment on the work.

Its not enough for me to give a simple "great work" "or flawless" or "best I've seen in ages" when thats simply not enough for someone like myself who takes art as an instrumental and influencial aspect of life. I don't believe in giving dishonest answers and I won't tell a person something I don't feel is true just to make them feel better. When it does not require any critique I simply won't. This is often the case, but not with this picture.

You seem to be forgetting what the very nature of critiquing is. What I have done is critiqued, and nothing more. If I meaned to hurt him I would have purposely found things wrong with his picture and made things up just to post a snide remark. My post was founded on the very aspect of what critiquing is. I saw things that stood out to me, and I felt the need to say something about it.

I'm not concerned when petty people decide to make petty something which is commonplace and essential in the world of art.

And you have some nerve expecting me to be confounded or humbled by your e-mail. It was little more than an explaination of your rant and rave, and I did in fact get through to you as you got through to me.

If this is the way you are going to be Cheshire Cat, then please do ignore me. For I don't have the patience for the likes of you anymore.

 

[MTJpub]

My opinion on the critiquing of art or fiction that is shared on this forum has always been that unless directly solicited from the author or artist in question, negative feedback should not be offered.

My opinion is based on the fact that not everyone that posts a piece of art or fiction here is looking to improve their skills or become a professional in the field. More often than not they are just expressing their interest in this fetish and enjoy being a contributor to these forums.

If every contributor had their work scrutinized and criticized the results would be less contributions and we would all be poorer for it.

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I completely agree. But unless the artists in question say something or make it clear where they stand as an artist, theres no way for us to know and it would be wrong to assume what they feel and think.

I've only offered an alternative opinion. People will agree with me artistically speaking, and people will disagree with me artistically speaking. CC takes every attempt to make an opinion look like a personal attack designed to belittle and hurt an artist. I like kingmidrif, and his style is unique. And whether or not he wants to become professional is beside the point. Critiquing is critiquing, and it is neither wrong nor ill founded. Showcased art would not be art if it wasn't critiqued. Its like part of the art family. Sure, its a sensitive thing to deal with, but its a case by case basis. I thought his first goth girl pic was amazing. Definitely worth saying what I said there, meaning every ounce of what I said.

Again though, case by case. This picture had things that stood out to me. What he is planning or what he is not planning is a secondary issue. What is is what is, and to me there were things about this picture worth critiquing. I told him how I felt before and after the critique, to insure him I wasn't critiquing him for any other reason.

Why would I do such a thing? Its horrible. If what I said makes him or others uneasy, thats just part of art and I meant no harm to him. Its not all glitz and glamour. This is a forum to which people showcase their talent whether amateur or professional. No work is absolved from a critique. I am not the only person that feels and thinks this way, and God forbid someone voice an opinion. Man!

My critique is worth no more or less that any one else's and yet again CC turns something I say into an argument and personal war. He should have just ignored me like he says he does (but lets face it, no one really does that, they just say it to seem like they are punishing someone, they of course read it to see if anything else is said about them or to see whats going on).

He should have just gave his opinion and let it be. If he reads my posts or not, it shouldn't matter. He nor anyone else needs to make this about me and them. Its about kingmidrif, and funny CC posts directly to me yet said nothing to kingmidrif about his picture. That just goes to show you how consumed he has become with his loathing for me that he sees me and only me.

I'm sure he feels he has some bent sense of justice, but backtalking to me isn't justice to anyone. All it does it start flame wars, and no one wants that.

If you can't respect someone else's opinion you shouldn't be posting here, or anywhere.

 

[Kalamos]

Thought I could throw in my 2 eurocents.
Just to see where they finally land... 🙂

So, I feel DJ has a point when he said people could [could, mind you, not should] critique an artist's work.

[I'm not arguing about his critique, though. It's his responsibility to do so.]

Catch is - as Morandilas has correctly pointed out - not everybody is out to make his/her art better.

Since this is primarily an adult forum, some contribute just for the thrill of it [like me...].

If they really wanted art advice, they would sign up on Elfwood or any likeminded community.
Or get some schooling, or art classes.

Still, we can't be in people's brain.

Diplomacy would suggest asking before making any kind of critique.

Forgetting this, one will only get bad reactions.

Cheshire's opinion about DJ is quite clear, and I can perfectly see where this thread will lead, if we don't stop soon.

[Hello, Dave...]

...

Now, since diplomacy is the word, I'd like to ask Cheshire a question or two.

You said: "This is quite possibly one of the best original pieces to come to this forum since Fairfeather debuted".

What about all other people that posted pics in the same time frame? 🙂

I'm not saying you are wrong about DJ or his critique.

But your remark was a bit tactless... 😉

..

[And in my case... envy moves mountains! 😀 😀 😀

I love you Fairfeather! 😀 😀 😀 ]


So, what will it be? Head or tails?


EDIT: I forgot about the post importart bit... the PIC! 😀

Let's get it straight: only Caravaggio is perfect. Anything less, is not. 🙂

On the other hand, this pic is quite original and looks nice and unique.

I do see a couple of stray pixels - but nothing fans will notice or complain about.

The hair colouring technique is quite interesting, and I'll work to replicate it and maybe incorporate it in my colour pics.

...

All in all, I hope Kingmidrif [how odd, royalty again... 😀 ] will make more.


Reg's.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Very well said.

However, again, an opinion is an opinion and I shouldn't have to ask before I register it, especially when I am an artist who knows dots his Is, and crosses his Ts every time he posts.

I don't like being tactless, and I don't like posting if its only worth a few stray words which are ever redundant here.

All I am aiming to do is raise the bar. Theres nothing wrong with that. I'm not jeoprodizing anyone. A great deal of people probably only say what they say because of a sad truth- they are selfish.

What do I mean by that? I mean they are willing to say anything to an artist or talent in order to keep them here. I'm sure some people are only protecting an investment, and in their mind, critiquing is a liabilty.

Its not a liability if you deal with it properly. And in my case, where I have no ulterior motives and geuinely care for what I do and say and take part in, I'm just voicing my opinion. It is only as destructive as you believe it to be. The truth is my good man, no one will ever know the degree to which it was meant or implied unless I tell them so. And so as to not cause any confusion and to get the facts perfectly straight, I explain mylself.

As you said K, "Still, we can't be in people's brain."

How true that is. Once again, I like kingmidrif and his work. Now if I showed signs of dislike to begin with then my critiquing would be called into question legitimately. CC just wants to paint another picture for you all, and its completely wrong and bias, and is merely another reflection of not the situation, but of his disgust and disdain for me.

And you know whats sad about this? I'm a good person, and it seems he and I only disagree on this art issue. I'm sure if we knew eachother or associated with eachother by other means or interests that he'd find I'm not as shallow or crude as he sees me to be.

Coincidentally King of the Hill was on a while ago, and Hank Hill said something practically sublime that I could use for this situation-

"Now thats what is called a 'loaded question'. No matter how I answer it theres a bullet in every chamber designed to blow my brains out."- Hank Hill (King of the Hill)

😀

 

[MTJpub]

I feel that since this forum is not part of some artistic creative workshop the assumption should be that unless the poster solicits constructive criticism it should not be offered.

Forums such as the TMF and Tickle Theater offer a safe haven for people that wish to express themselves without the fear of being judged or persecuted. If we bombard our contributors with unsolicited advice and criticism we risk losing them.

Offline it would be considered rude to walk up to a stranger and start offering constructive criticism on their clothes, use of makeup or hair style. I feel the same should apply here.

In my opinion we should assume that a contribution to this forum is just that and we should be grateful that someone took the time to share their work with us. An artist or author that would like us to share our opinion of their work will ask us to do so. Over the years I have seen this happen often.

Lastly if someone truly feels a need to offer unsolicited advice you could always use the forum’s Private Message function. Offering this unsolicited advice publicly is not warranted.

Just my thoughts on the matter of unsolicited criticism.

Morandilas
MTJ Publishing

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

"Now thats what is called a 'loaded question'. No matter how I answer it theres a bullet in every chamber designed to blow my brains out."- Hank Hill (King of the Hill)

 

[Kalamos]

Not much to add, really.

Morandilas's post was quite sensible and articulate.

Unsolicited criticism can be a two-edged sword.

What if people started giving heartfelt critiques over everybody's pics?

Personal grudges, human feelings, jealousy and envy, would all kick in, overcoming analytical judgement, and we'd soon have forum trolls crushing artists' works for the sake of it, just out of spite.

I'm not saying we should censor any attempt at constructive criticism. But posting criticism freely does not contribute to the well-being of the whole community.

Quite the opposite: it gives a bad example, by making people believe everybody is a good critic at heart.

Am I classist? Elitarian? I think not.

I'm only saying I wouldn't like my pics demolished by two-liners like "it sucks", "me like it not", "f33t st1nk" and likeminded cr4p. 😉

Would anybody of you?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Did you read my second to last post? I believe that explains everything.

In response to your new response I think we already know no one would do that here. Theres no reason to become hostile toward another artist for unfounded reasons. Theres a difference between critiquing and down right belittling someone. If anyone were to do that they'd become an outcast for it and no one would care to associate with them.

So we already know thats an extreme that will most likely never happen or be reached. What I'm talking about is being honest to one's opinion. I highly doubt every picture uploaded here is "great" in the opinion of the people that find the time to pay the artists some dues. Its a very thin line that will be treaded every time, but in posting about it it will become clear what a person means, and if someone can't take criticism at all, then thats really their problem for either having such a low self-esteem or being "conditioned" as I said.

In a perfect world people could say whatever they want without indirectly or directly hurting someone's feelings. But the human physci is delicate and refined. Anything will set it off unless a decisive effort is made to control one's feelings on the matter.

You can choose to see this as a good thing or a really bad thing. In truth, its a good thing, the way I said it and the way I meant it. It was constructive and helpful given what I said. I didn't merely say something and then offer no validation or help for it. But someone has decided to see what I said as something mean and horrible. I'm merely speaking a truth. If there truely wasn't a problem I wouldn't post about it. Critiquing exists for all the right reasons. And the end result is more dependant on how the reciever of comments takes it than the person who gave them in the first place.

Its all a matter of not letting such comments get to you, and taking them and turning them into a positive in your work. They are just as well to consider as the ones that are downright attacks are just as well to avoid.

What I have done here is done everywhere in some way, shape, or form by countless people to different degrees. I won't be outlawed because I'm doing something natural and something that I feel I must do. I can't say something simple like "great" or "good work". Its not good enough for me anymore, its lacking substance. I'm a person that likes to say what he mean and means what he says when its possible to give an honest opinion.

This isn't to say all I will do is critique. Thats far from the truth. Because evidentally some works are greater than others for several reasons and each work recieves praise depending and proportionate to the quality of the work. Critiquing is done when I feel it is necessary. And in instances (which I haven't been doing lately so I don't know why this is volital) where I do critique, its done in a tactful, respectful, and mature fashion.

I wouldn't say something like "your work is crap, get the hell out of here." Thats just obvious and is a given. I wouldn't hear that from you and you wouldn't hear that from me.

Its all really in how the artist chooses to deal with it. They can take the constructive criticism, asked for or not, and make something positive out of it. Or they can brood and fester over it, making themselves and their art miserable.

 

[Kalamos]

Sorry DJ.

I have just so much time to spare. 🙂

I'm sure you are sincere and fair when posting criticism.
But I am almost sure you are alone.

I don't know if other people will start criticizing pics.
I hope not.

I also hope you are capable of coping with critiques too.

By giving out criticism, you are effectively [or unwillingly] implying you welcome critiques on your art.

Unless of course you cherish the chance to reply.

...

-> To anybody, not specifically DJ

Oh, before anybody wonders: I don't know about Kingmidrif.

Personally I share my pics for fun. I don't need, want or care for "pointers" on my art.

I am self-taught, and I'll always be. It's the individualistic streak of my character that I really like. 😉

So, if people like my pics, any good comment is welcome - but not required, I just gauge the site-hits.

If they do not...
I'll be blunt: it is FREE ART, and you can complain only over things you actually PAY FOR. 😉

...

Well, we'll see.


Reg's guys.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Alone? No. Outnumbered? Of course.

This site has been groomed a certain way, and I understand that. But I'm not going to change because people can't handle my honesty or desire to handle a comment with more than a half-assed response.

As for myself and my art, I wouldn't have brought this up and expected to be exempt from critiquing. It would be hypocritcal of me to not be able to take what I dish out. I've spoken about this several times, and I believe I've made it crystal clear.

One thing though-

I WILL NOT respect, honor, or accept critiques I know are from people that are only beginning to post just to tell me off and purposely find things wrong with my art in some sort of retaliation for my acts. That would be childish of them to act in such a way, and I won't have that. They should be big enough to not be like that, just as I am. That isn't critiquing. Its flinging mud. It will be obvious when people are sincere or not. I only ask for as much as I'm giving. For some, thats asking alot, since people have become used to giving short responses with little to no meaning. But for others, it affords them the opportunity to speak out and have a certain ammount of freedom to say what they'd like (as long as it has to do with the picture or topic).

Actually, critiquing has more positive aspects to it than you are willing to recognize. When approached the right way, it bears fruit. When used as a weopon to attack other people in spite it becomes a cival war that will only ever be resolved with a duel. And I think my chances are quite good in a duel, so don't go there. 😛 LOL

 

[Kalamos]

A duel against whom?

Nobody is perfect. Only Leonardo or Caravaggio were.

And I can see neither of them.

[And they are dead too, so I'd naturally have better chances... 😉 ]

...

I'll elaborate further on what I said.

Free art means that usually people make pics in their spare time.

It is not a job, just something they do when they can - unless they have a lot of time to spare.

This means they can't afford to make something absolutely perfect or professional - even if they are skilled enough to.

So, critiques seem quite pointless - since you are not judging the final product, but probably just a demo.


Enough. I'm busy now.

Reg's.

 

[Fairfeather]

Acckkk! I just come here for the pictures. All this text is causing my eyes to glaze over faster than a Krispy Kreme.

When I said I liked kingmidriff's picture I really did mean it. He has achieved a painterly quality (using the mouse no less). I think it was done with PhotoShop, but I'm not sure. However, for a cartoonist like me who pretty much sticks to straight line and tone that's impressive. I can't do it. Not yet anyway. Sure, you can go into things like anatomy and proportions and gesture and so forth. But I think the most important thing is the first impression: Does it appeal to you? If it does than all that other stuff, while important, comes secondary. It's a matter of style too. A certain type of nose or lip or form of dress might might appeal to one artist that doesn't have the same appeal for another. Plus, this is just a sub-forum of a much larger forum devoted to tickling. There are plenty of good boards out there solely for artists and critques. And classes too! 🙂

I guess I tend to think about the non-artists who frequent here. (of which there are probably a lot from the other sub-forums) They probably aren't terribly concerned about things like line and form, color and composition. They just wanna see appealing pictures. If they don't like what they see they say nothing. Sometimes if they do like what they see they say nothing but that's just the way it is. 🙂 After all, when we view a good tickling photograph in the Images area do we artists care about what F-stop or exposure the guy behind the lens used if the picture appeals to us? I imagine when they see a mass of text like this their eyes kinda glaze over too.

In any case....I don't mean to criticize or badmouth. Being a featherweight in the writing department I'm not good at lengthy dissertations anyway. Just has usually been a pretty user friendly place. Yes.. I love you too Kalamos. 😀 and Celtic...and Cheshire and...and...hey...we need more girls in here.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ Kalamos- A duel against a person that would make it such a point to bash me illegitimately that they need to be put in their place (assuming they are an artist as well). A simple judged contest of pure artistic ability. At best it will shame them for acting so immature about the whole ordeal.

This isn't an ideal way of handling it, but hey, it sounds fun to me! 😀 LOL

I'm not going to withhold my opinions, even those that include critiques. Its just part of what I want to do. The artist can ignore the critique or post or make something positive of it. Its up to them. This is regardless of the art being free or not. Art is art and is not exempt from critiquing because of monotary reasons.

Enough is right.

@ Fairfeather- I understand and appriciate what you are saying, and I agree that it does depend on how the picture is viewed. There are so many different opinions and views out there. Sometimes they are favorable and sometimes they are not. As I've said, I wouldn't critique just to critique. Theres a method to which I hope to follow as time passes and I think I've done a good job of that thus far.

I just feel its wrong to withhold an opinion about art. Its like allowing yourself to be silenced. And when everyone is saying the same thing basically, just in different words or phrases, it makes me want to give that other opinion even more.

There needs to be balance, and we won't achieve that this way. Balance is achieved through complete honesty, honesty enough to critique if need be or compelled to.

EDIT: Kalamos said he was self taught. Well, I am self taught also. I don't need critiques or suggestions as I know what I need to do to improve my work, but that doesn't mean I don't appriciate those kinds of comments. They sort of serve as a reminder of what I want to do with my art. And sometimes their thoughts are my thoughts as well. So it all works out, and isn't so contradictory all the time.