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The greatest army in the world? (Not a read for people who think America is perfect.)

BigJim

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Okay guys, we all know that the UK and the USA are as good a pair of mates as you'll ever find on the international stage; but do we really have to keep hearing about how the US posesses the finest armed forces in the world? Every time I see a newspaper article or a news interview with some top American brass they slip in the "we've got the best armed orces in the world, bar none!" line. The US air force, army, navy and marines are definatley the most numerous and best funded in the west, but by Christ they aren't the best by a long shot! The British Army are getting three or four times as many casualties inflicted on them by the US than the Iraqis inflict! I was in the Other Ranks Club at Upavon last week and two of the guys who were stationed there from the USAF walked in. As if on cue, every brit in the club dived under their tables shouting........... "Don't shoot! We're British!!!"

During the first Gulf War the US blew up five times as much British material as the Iraqis did and history is repeating itself now. We've just had the pin-point precision air-strike by an A-10 Thunderbolt that wiped out 2 British tanks and most of their crews. Well hey, blue-on-blues (military jargon for friendly fire incidents) are commonplace in war they can't be avoided. But rather frighteningly this A-10 pilot opened up on a Britsh column that a) was carrying Americn-made laser designators so targeting systems wouldn't shoot them b) wearing special black and white markings on their tanks so they could be visually recognised, and c) FLYING THE UNION JACK! On top of all this the pilot would have had to peer through magnification optics to use that chain gun, it was broad daylight and he was (rather unusually for an American pilot) flying at very low level. Let's hope the pilot wasn't as stoned as the one who blew the shit out those Canadian troops last year, eh?

Now before anyone starts thinking that I've gone and turned anti-American or anything, please remember that there are not many Brits who are as big yanko-philes as me. But please nobody fall into the trap of listening to all the propaganda we get our consciousnesses saturated with every second; and believeing it to be proved fact.The biggest example of what I've heard called "newszak" is the New York Post. This paper has deemed it good ethics to use "may, possibly, could, almost, might, maybe and perhaps" in their stories and editorials, because they're not real journalists who actually do any work and find out information, check sources and research. That paper is a laughing stock amongst the journalistic community because it represents the absolute stereotype of tabloidisation and newszak, with nothing of the fourth-estateist ideals of actual writers.

We're in a situation right now, where our boys (and some girls too) are fighting their guts out in the Gulf. Although it's important to support them, fooling ourselves is no support. CNN, ABC and Fox are just as coloured and full of blatant lies as al-Jazeera; just as The Sun, The Daily Mirror and The New York Post are sometimes as full of crap as any arabic, rabble-rousing sheet.
 
hey jim it's not so bad!

your post that is. the friendly fire is though!
listen if your boys would turn on the "friend or foe" beacon, a lot of it wouldn't happen. i saw two reports after such "blue on blue" incidents, that said the brit plane, and tanks weren't transmitting!
i have noticed that more casualties have been caused to both britsh, and american fources by friendly fire, and accidents, than by the "can't shot straight gang" iraqi's!
i have the utmost respect for you "tommies". you've come a long way from the bad old days of montgomery. tell your mates in the e.m. club that i send my best wishes, and warmest regards.
steve
 
Re: hey jim it's not so bad!

areenactor said:
your post that is. the friendly fire is though!
listen if your boys would turn on the "friend or foe" beacon, a lot of it wouldn't happen. i saw two reports after such "blue on blue" incidents, that said the brit plane, and tanks weren't transmitting!

Would that report have been on CNN or ABC by any chance Steve? 😀 These reports would'nt also happen to fly in the face of what the BA brass said would it? 😀 Also what happened to missing the markings and the huge British flag on the back?😀 Ah hell, war's heck.


areenactor said:
i have noticed that more casualties have been caused to both britsh, and american fources by friendly fire, and accidents, than by the "can't shot straight gang" iraqi's!

True, but at least you guys have decency to cause your own blue-on-blue deaths without expecing us to have to do it for you. 😀 Besides which, my crack is more aimed at the people who constantly ram down the necks of anyone who's listening, that the US forces are the best when the British and the Israelis are both more competent, if more short short of funds. (Israeli pilots are second only to the RAF you know! 😀 I have that on very good faith; Tony Blair told me.)


By the way, what's an E.M. Club? I guess it's the equivalent of a NAAFI club, but I never heard that one before. (Didn't stay long on my trip to Bentwaters.)

P.S. Will be sure to pass the message on, bud. 🙂
 
OK sit down folks..........

......in case you pass out. I dissagree with Jim on this, firstly friendly fire has been part of war fare going back to Hannibal the Great, Ghengis Kahn, or Richard the Lion Heart, its not good when it happens and its very bad for morale, but there is no suggestion that every effort is not being made to avoid this kind of incident, and given the amount of hardware on the ground and in the air, its to everyones credit that these regrettable incidents are not more frequent.

I think its in poor taste to gloat about these unfortunate events, and Jim you can not rule out the possibility that U.K. forces may cause a similar accident themselves before this is all over.

Areenactor is quite wrong to suggest that U.K. forces are in some way responsible for these accidents, I have not heard that suggested by any one in the U.S. military or in the U.K. media (large parts of the U.K. media seem desparate to rubbish U.K. forces at the first opportunity and crow from the roof tops at the first sign of a delay or mistake)

Jim is also way off mark suggesting that the U.S. rate themselves way above every one else (apart from Neutron) they of course have numerical superiority and technical superiority but there is a lot more to it than that and the U.S. know that. I dont think the U.S. would allow any other group of armed forces other than the U.K. to work so closely with them.

Its also worth noting jim the Donald Rumsfelt went out of his way to heap praise on U.K. forces only yesterday at a press briefing, and he does not strike me as a guy who dishes out praise to foreigners very easily!!


BTW areenactor whats this bollocks about "the bad old days of montgomery"? send me a list of the battles he lost.
 
Re: OK sit down folks..........

red indian said:


I think its in poor taste to gloat about these unfortunate events, and Jim you can not rule out the possibility that U.K. forces may cause a similar accident themselves before this is all over.


It would be in very poor taste to gloat about it; just as well that I'm not then. I was pointing out some stats because I'm sick of various American brass waxing lyrical about brilliant and efficient their armed forces are. Nothing against anything else, or anyone else American. And very true, I can't rule it out. I think the chances of it happening are just as low as they were in the last Gulf War though. At the moment the only British blue-on-blue was a self-inflicted one, due to a blocked cannon on a Challenger II.



red indian said:
Jim is also way off mark suggesting that the U.S. rate themselves way above every one else (apart from Neutron) they of course have numerical superiority and technical superiority but there is a lot more to it than that and the U.S. know that. I dont think the U.S. would allow any other group of armed forces other than the U.K. to work so closely with them.
Its also worth noting jim the Donald Rumsfelt went out of his way to heap praise on U.K. forces only yesterday at a press briefing, and he does not strike me as a guy who dishes out praise to foreigners very easily!!

I'm way off the mark? Ask any military official from the US who has the "best" armed forces and I'll eat any extraneous part of my anatomy that you care to name, if they don't reply that their own are. (Without salt!) It's been trumpeted by anyone and everyone who's ever had anything to d with the forces in the US, that they are the best. Tron is a bit more extreme than anyone else, after all he believes that all other nations exist only to serve America. Most of them are far more reasonable; they just believe the US is superior to all other nations.


red indian said:
BTW areenactor whats this bollocks about "the bad old days of montgomery"? send me a list of the battles he lost.

Oh gawd! Indy, do NOT argue wartime history with Steve, because you WILL lose. 🙄
 
I've yet to meet someone who didn't assume that thier own military power wasn't "the best on the planet." Perhaps it's simply the huge numbers of troops apon which this semtiment is based. I'm no military historian by trade or hobby, so I'll **GASP** just shut my big mouth about it and let Red and others discuss. I will however READ the thread. 😛

This reminds me of a thread that Strel ((by the way, miss you and come back soon boss)) posted a while back regarding the way other country's troops are treated in regard to unit and group tranfers compared to how we tend to shuffle our guys in and out of places indivudually. That was an interesting point back then. Might be worth a look to see how that might affect the actual tactical maneuvering and the win/loss ratio.

Not a bad thread Jim.Thanks for bringing up a topic for conversation that can actually be investigated! Might turn out to be a nifty conversation.

Joby
 
JoBelle said:
Not a bad thread Jim.Thanks for bringing up a topic for conversation that can actually be investigated! Might turn out to be a nifty conversation.

Joby


Oh you'd be suprised what can be investigated, if you know what channels to look into. 😉

I think you're right though, it could prove to be an interesting tally eventually.
 
You what jim????

...."dont argue wartime history with him" ? why not? I know a thing or two my self sunshine!
 
Re: You what jim????

red indian said:
...."dont argue wartime history with him" ? why not? I know a thing or two my self sunshine!


:blaugh: Yeah I know Indy, but Steve knows more about it than Buggs Bunny knows about carrots. Besides, I don't think he was referring to Monty's win/loss record. (Steve?) I think he was referring to the decline of the Brit blue-on-blue ratio since WW2.
 
hi all, sorry i'm so late

jim the "e.m. club" is the enlisted men's club.

where it is true that u.s. forces are the best, i don't go hitting folks with it like a creme pie. i figure it's common knowledge😀 , and if someone disagrees, well they're not worth arguing with are they?!:devil:

jim i thank you for the praise, but red knows a thing or two also. he just happens to be wrong this time, lol.
monty ,was a putz! he screwed the pooch in north africa, blew the pooch in sicily, and in europe he preformed necrophilia on the pooch!
look at the calais fiasco for a good example! he didn't take the damn town, then decided to just encircle it, then let the jerries just walk out, and over to holland. where as we know they were a major part of the german reception commity for operation market garden. your own bitish paras got the worse end of that deal!
when a member of his staff informed him that intell. had found strong evidence that the germans were in holland in strength, the man was eventually relieved.
as gen. gavin of the 82nd abn. said of monty, he was a proper gentleman, and nice to socialize with, he was a lousy field commander.

jim the reports i heard were on fox news. the first was a release by the british saying they knew the plane's friend or foe signal was not working. the other was fox saying they was similar concers.
i also saw a report yesterday, it was an interview with one of the tank crew survivers, he said you could see the american pilot he was so low, and was trying "desperately" to pull out of the attack, and looked "horrified". i can tell you for a fact, the american pilot feels horrible about it. i'm saying that as a former serviceman.

i hope, and pray that no more british or american military men get hurt by friendly fire.
steve
 
Re: hi all, sorry i'm so late

areenactor said:
i can tell you for a fact, the american pilot feels horrible about it. i'm saying that as a former serviceman.

i hope, and pray that no more british or american military men get hurt by friendly fire.
steve

Don't we all? I can imagine what's going through the poor sod's mind right now. At least the bloke who whacked the "eh? brigade" was too stoned to care at the time.

Something is seriously concerning me about the various news networks and the governmental departments who release statements through them. Even here in the UK, we get about half a dozen international news channels on cable, including three solely USA ones. (Claptrap No News, the Arsehole Broadcasting Company and the Nuts aBout Crap news network.) Not one of our agencies whether governmental or corperate is any better than al-Jazeera! I've seen all 6 channels giving different slants on their broadcast releases and their slant is usually in the favour of their home country. Frightening. :scared: No matter how righteous we think the west might be, our news and media is just as capable of lying to us as theirs is. Which reminds me, I think I'll mount that "paranoia" poster in my sig next time............
 
Jim,
Your mention of the way the media is covering the war reminds me of something my favorite Uni prof used to say.

"I don't teach history the way it WAS. I teach history the way I THINK it was." By that he always meant that the story will be colored by the person telling it. OR, in this case, ther persons reporting it. We should all know by now that is how it works and not even bat a lash at the factthat if there are ten witnesses to an act, they weren't all standing in the same spot holding the same view. Which is right? Frankly, they all are. Odd how that works. If I remember correctly it was Hegel who had a good grasp of the historical refernece of philosophy. Can't be sure of the name...but I'll find the quotation and post it. Right now, the meds are kicking in...so I'm off to la la land.

Joby
 
JoBelle said:
Jim,
Your mention of the way the media is covering the war reminds me of something my favorite Uni prof used to say.

"I don't teach history the way it WAS. I teach history the way I THINK it was." By that he always meant that the story will be colored by the person telling it. OR, in this case, ther persons reporting it.
Joby

Ah yes, but this is where we differ on motives, Jo. You'd say it was because everyone sees something differently, I'd say it was because it's part of a deliberate mis-information campaign.
 
mmmm.........

......I have no idea what a "pooch" is, its not a military term i have come across before. So "Market garden" is the only failure you can come up with then? all the other battles you mention resulted in deafeat for the enemy, as i say, where is your list of lost battles? a clue can be found in the Title "Field Marshall", only a bloke called Von Paulus got the coveted baton for abject failiure.

I am happy to agree with you that he is open to a great deal of critisism, but read what the germans thought of him ("The other side of the hill" by Liddel Hart).

If you want to study a real dick head commander look up Gen Mark Clark.

BTW areenactor who was giving the orders after operation overlord? some bloke called Eisenhower I believe, but then he was too busy shagging his secretary at S.H.A.E.F. as I recall!
 
Screwing the pooch is the nice way of saying f****g the dog.It means procrastination or "dogging it".

Without ever flying in an attack or ground support plane,I don't know how easy it would be to see any given emblem on a ground vehicle during an attack, or how easy to pull out once the attack has been initiated.I am getting tired of hearing this type of shit,along with the helicopter crashes.
 
hi red, jim, etal.

ok i agree, gen. mark clark was an ASSHOLE!
no make that a prime asshole! and a prima-dona, to boot!
one of the worst american generals of ww2.
actually market garden was a victory, just not the over-whelming victory that was hoped for, and moronicly promised by monty.
look back at his actions in north africa, and sicily, and in the invasion of europe. the man was a bungler, incompetent, and a ditherer. if he didn't have a minimum of 3to 1, he wouldn't attack.

during the ardens offensive (battle of the buldge) the american 82nd div. was north of the german salient, and was put under over-all british control, for the duration of the battle.
gen. gavin passed on many requests by his battlion commanders to attack the german flanks, every time monty said no! one regiment of the 82 sent word finally that they were in mutiny, and were attacking. gavin went to see monty in person at that point, and told monty the 82 would no longer be asking for his approvel.

gen. eisenhour, as has been said, was the best general the british had. or as patton said, ike is more concerned with being an allie, than with being an american general, or winning the war!

oh gee i love this!
steve
 
Re: hi red, jim, etal.

areenactor said:
the man was a bungler, incompetent, and a ditherer. if he didn't have a minimum of 3to 1, he wouldn't attack.


How did we get to talking about George McClellan here? :blaugh:
 
Re: Re: hi red, jim, etal.

BigJim said:


How did we get to talking about George McClellan here? :blaugh:

sorry, but i have to admit, i know next to nothing about the
"war of northern aggression". that's the civil war to you yankees, and yankee supporters.

steve
 
Re: Re: Re: hi red, jim, etal.

areenactor said:


sorry, but i have to admit, i know next to nothing about the
"war of northern aggression". that's the civil war to you yankees, and yankee supporters.

steve

Actually Steve, that a bloody good point!!! A lot of arabs view the current war the way the Confederacy viewed the Civil War. When I was a re-enactor I was fortunate to belong to the 9th Kentucky Volunteer Infantry. Both the US and the CS had a unit of that name, so we used to switch roles from month to month. The Union army was full of miserable bastards who only did it for the power trip though. The reb army was full of the guys who knew how to be authentic and have a good time. (Not suprising then that the rebs had twice the numbers of the yanks; a bit of a reversal of history, no?)
 
Yep...........

...I,m loving it too, you started by saying "market garden" was a failiure, now you say it was a victory! come on make your mind up, I thought you were an expert.

I thought it was standard military doctrine to have a ratio of 3:1 before going in to battle to ensure victory? how is that "bungling" or "incompetant"?

The "Ardennes break out" was an accident waiting to happen, as a result of ikes insistance that whole front attack all the time, and advanced like an enormous cross country race, and as a result nearly fucked it up.

So.....were is this list then? oh gee i love this!
 
Re: Yep...........

red indian said:
...I,m loving it too, you started by saying "market garden" was a failiure, now you say it was a victory! come on make your mind up, I thought you were an expert.

first, i never said i was an expert, big jim heaped that praise on me. even though i'm not a true expert, i do think i've proven i know more than most, esp. in this discussion.
the over all battle was a very costly victory. it turned into a cluster f**k due to montys inflexability, and stubbernness, and refusal to admit the truth. another major goof up was to send in the polish paras when it was too late to affect the out come of the battle, all that did was kill a shit load of poles along with the british paras.

I thought it was standard military doctrine to have a ratio of 3:1 before going in to battle to ensure victory? how is that "bungling" or "incompetant"?

because he dithered all the time. his doctrin of battle was too set piece. he insisted on everything being nice and tidy, and all his ducks lined up. he couldn't mauvere, or exploit.

The "Ardennes break out" was an accident waiting to happen, as a result of ikes insistance that whole front attack all the time, and advanced like an enormous cross country race, and as a result nearly fucked it up.

the ardennes offensive was put in the works about the same time as market garden. the germans for saw that the allies would be on the border by december. ike insisted on holding up the americans, so the british forces under montgomery would be left behind. he should have listened to patton! the ardennes sector was stupidly left almost unmanned. after the germans came through there in 40, i don't see how ike, and his (mostly british staff) could not have forseen what was to happen.

So.....were is this list then? oh gee i love this!

i've been saying it all along, you just refuse to see it (hmm, just like monty!)
steve
 
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