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The Iraq conflict by the means of a European girl.

Elena

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Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Messages
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Hi people,
I just wanted to say a few things concerning the conflict in Iraq. Whatever the reasons may be for this : you don't solve problems with bloodshed alone. For many of you American citizens your hatred against Middle-East population may be increased since 11th September. And I really regret the amount of victims there. Lifes who all deserved to have a good future... but all blown away cause of a brutal inhuman attack.

But people, don't forget, what this coming war is going to cause, is and WILL be more or less the same. Your country has "bleeded", I admit that for 100 %, but why would you , why would just your country attack other civilians because of what overcame you. Iraqi president Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person for the world. He has done many wrong things, but he is NOT responsible for any attack at the WTC towers in New York. And defenitely the Iraq civilians are not responsible for that. What have they done wrong to you? What will they ever do wrong to you... unless having the Iraq nationality? What I want to say is: war is ALWAYS wrong. For not matter what reason. It will always ask for innoncent victims. Who claims this is not true is naive.

In Europe there has been tons of massive protest activities all over its countries. Not only youngsters, also many adult persons are AGAINST war in Iraq. I'm from Germany , and I know my history. And YOU all know the faults of Germany in the past. Many people died , many innoncent people died completely useless, and not only military personal. And that all because of an evil mind , that all of the naive believe in such a person. Someone who said war is the only solution. I won't say mr. Bush is to be equalized with Hitler. No, saying that would be totally wrong. But if he believes war is the only rightfull solutions for stopping international (and more particulary Muslem) terrorism , well, then he is so darn wrong. Every person with a bit of brain somewhere, with a bit of heart somewhere knows this.

With the defeath of Iraq there will be only a little part of the Muslem world broken. This war will only cause more and perhaps even harder terrorism. Dont forget many Muslem countries support Iraq. And they will not forget an eventual US win in Iraq. And my heart fears an eventual further outcome. Let God may spare us from more cruelness. Let us, human, think further than only the hunt for revenge. Let us think as wise people, let us believe that war will make things worse only.

I hope I've spoken in the name of "some" people who protest against this war going on. I know some people might hate me know because of having expressed my meaning now. But I just thought: I can't do anything but share it for the WHOLE room.

I hope any commments will follow on this message. Let us see what everyone thinks about my writing. And I do NOT only ask American points of view. Europeans in here: French, German, Spanish, Dutch, etc.... let me hear your voice. Tell me , if you are against war, just why... just why...


Elena
 
hello elena

too bad you weren't around, and just as vocal back in the 1930's, and 1940's, maybe if you were, my european relitives would still be alive... naw forget that, if you'd have been there, and as vocal, you'd have been killed along with my relitives!

see, there's the biggest difference between hitler, and pres. bush.
here in america even you as a forigner, or someone like shinng ice ca say pres. bush is like hitler, and nothing will happen to you, except to be called an asshole.

please get something straight; america is not alone in this!!!
why can't you anti-war types get this right??? i have seen news reports all day today talking about other countries troops involved in the combat! at last report there is over 30 countries signed on providing suport ranging from troops, to transit permission, to promises of help in re-building iraq.

lastly, if you're not paying attention, we made a "surgical strike" to try and only get the iraqi leadership! our artilery barage in the south of iraq is blowing up the larg mine fields there. so hold back the tears, the u.s. isn't engaged in mass killings.

lastly, as i once said to one of your countrymen, i think you germans would be singing a very different tune if the terrorist gun was being pointed at you, instead of us!

thanks for posting.
steve
 
Well Put

Elena that was a very well put reply to war. Its the point that I like to make to these people who beileve that killing will solve everything. I am a radical American because of my views. I don't think there is enough evidence to proove that Iraq has supported Al-Queada (however you spell it). Because there is so little evidence we should've let inspectors continue inspections and gone after the terrorists. Saddam Housein is a very dangerous and brutal dictator that does some horrible things but i think blood is not the answer. When he invaded kuwaitt in Desert Storm I thought that was a great reason to act militarially. I also have views that we should'ver thrown him out back then but because we didn't hes still in power. Its not Saddom Housein........its Osama Bin Laden, Mohammed Omar, and other Al-Quida operatives. If there was evidence that he support terrorists then that would be a reason to act but we havn't. I know people are saying we should stand together. I will stand together for our troops but i am still very much against this war. I will continue to resent this war and unless Bush changes between now and 2004 I will not vote for someone like him. I agree with you Elena 100%.
 
opps

opps sorry this is suppose to be a reply.........im stilkl begining sorry 😎
 
Merged the 2 threads...

No problem jhop220...that's one of the reasons we Mods float around...to tidy things up! 😉 As for Ms Elenas statement:

Hallo Elena..... Versuch, dies auf deutsch, zu schreiben, da sie tapfer genug waren, Ihr zu versuchen, ist schreiben auf englisch! Ich glaube, daß das es prinzipien wert kämpfen und sogar sterben für gibt. Die handlungen von Saddam Hussein sind über den letzten zwanzig jahren genug allein, ohne irgendein von der 9-11 terrortätigkeit zu bedenken. Sie sollen Übel immer kämpfen, wenn es sein Gesicht. ...waiting zeigt, ein fehler ist.

Your English is better than my German....lol, but I tried! I'm sure Hal will be around to beat me up and tell me how horrible it was..😛 Q
 
Hey!

That's my own crappy syntax in there Hal...lol! I looked up "terrorist" and faked the horrible idiomatic grammar, but it's all mine!! Mine mine mine!

How are you holding up over there, btw? Just heard about the ricin poison they found in the French subway system. Keep your wits about you, old friend, okay? There's a few extremists on both sides of this mess....:sowrong: Q
 
thoughts from Portugal

From a Portuguese citizen:

To start probably I should tell to those who don´t know the position of my own country wich I´ll comment latter. The position of Portugal is one of support to the U.S., not only by providing air space and military bases to the U.S. but also agreeing and defending polliticaly the idea of the millitary solution.

Now time for my own views:
I would say I agree with Elena on many things cause I´m mostly a person of pacifist convictions and almost allways against war. I do understand that no one ever wins in a war and the ultimate goal of mankind should be the total erradication of conflicts and wars of any kind. I should add that I still keep a faith on mankind and maybe someday we´ll grow up and start solving our problems together cause we´re all made of the same things, we all have the same end and basically the same needs and problems (don´t forget I said basically before calling me a dreammer).
So, it was somewhat implicit on my words that I also understand world is not such a safe and mature place yet as to give us the chance to leave all in peace. I do understand that in some cases war might become the lesser worse....cases like the nazi regim, the bosnia ethnic cleanings,and shall I say....the Gulf War...are fine examples were war was probably the way of loosing less and so, an unavoidable choice.
Question now is: Are we facing a situation were war was really the only choice available wich could lead us to a lesser damage? All the question to me should be in this matter. Cause if it was trully the only way, than it should have been done as to avoid future greatter damages....but was it? I´m not so sure, I´ll tell you why I´m not so sure and will be open minded to see everyone´s thoughts.

Why am I not so sure:
We all know the most common damages a war brings....and I hope most of us keep in mind all the damages that can arise where they´re most unexpected. But for the sake of time I wont digress here about war damages...collateral or non.collateral ones, hope everyone had at least lost a few minutes to thought on that.
So let´s see if the actual threat presented by Iraq is worst that all the damages spoken above and here are all my doubts.
threats used as justification by U.S. and all their supporters (including my own country):

- irakis weapons of massive destruction
- irakis suport to terrorist
- irakis lunatic leader (I must admit the man is surely not a pearson I´d vote for at least)

For the first point I believe everyone must admit that it´s a global problem and not an iraki problem....iraq is just more dangerous because it has an unpredictable leader, but the problem of weapons is a global problem and it still needs to be solves in the future, no matter the result of this war. So war against Iraq won´t end that threat...to solve that one by war we would end up in a global war because countries all around the world possess weapons wich would go far away from U.N. weapon restrictions on Iraq.

The problem of terrorism is also a bad excuse for me. It might seem a greatter cause for U.S. and I understand why but lets see it clearly. We know that some Iraqi families support terrorism against U.S., that´s far from questioning, it might even be that irak leadership supports terrorism against U.S., I wouldn´t be surprised if it does. But will a war solve this problem?
Will a war stop people in iraq from supporting terrorism agains U.S.?
I will get even bold and ask you:
Do you really think that terrorist activities agains U.S. have been completely erradicated from Afganistan because you made a war and changed their political leadership?
My point is....a war would bring more people to terrorism, not less, the ones you kill are quickly replaced by others who are burning to pay you for having been defeated in a war.

Now it´s time to get to the single real problem I see on Iraq, the single real threat to mankind that´s on the loose out there......the Saddam guy....now this one is a real problem, I would have to agree with averyone wich stated that he´s control over iraq is not a democratic one, as far as we know he rulles in a way that can´t be accepted in by balanced people.
But my problem is:
What the hell.......do you need to get more then 200 thousand of your boys and girls, all that weaponry, kill many inocent people and destroy many important buildings wich will take time and money to rebuild....all this just to take one guy?....ok....probably some more guys....we might need to take out the bulk of his fellows who keep the iraq regim alive.
One of two things:
Either this guy isn´t such a nightmare to his people as we tend to think he is (and I trully believe i seems and sounds like crazy), or all the world (U.S., Europe and others) have been sleeping at least for 12 years cause if he´s trully bad to his people how come we can´t find a away of getting him overtrhown? Why can´t president Bush staff think and make something like this giving iraki people conditions to get the initiative rather than getting there and then see if the people welcomes you or wants to kill you? Is it because U.S. leadership is afraid of the choices that Iraki people would do if they were to get really free and choose on their own? are they afraid they would choose someone worst than saddam or someone who wouldn´t be up with their agendas?....just a thouht to think about.

Well....for the lot of mistakes I made on the last lines you´ll believe that I´m needing some sleep 🙂

It will allways be a pleasure to discuss anything with all you tickle-friends 🙂

War is sometimes the only choice
but one that should be considered only as a last resource as it will never bring good to anyone....maybe just to those who make a deal from it....

greetings from Portugal

many kisses to Elena as she´s the mother of this particular thread 🙂
 
Hi Elena, just imagine for a moment

Thanks for your post and views. Let me preface what I am about to say with: I certainly don't speak for all Americans. Thirty percent of Americans hold the same opinion you do. I'm not one of those nor do I speak for the 70% who do support the war. The following is my opinion, but I do feel that there are those who share this opinion. Please read the following with an open mind.

I want you to imagine for a moment please. You are German. You may not have agreed with all of your government's foreign policies, but regardless, you had no control over them. People from around the world start to hate you simply because your government can't seem to keep its nose out of other people's affairs. The hatred grows deeper. A few years pass. People start talking more and more hatred toward you, just because you happen to be German. A few more years pass. People begin to talk about killing you because you are German. People begin saying that all Germans anywhere in the world should be killed. People keep talking about killing Germans but no one does anything about it because "it's just talk". BOOM.. the first Germans begin to die in attacks. Small attacks at first. You try to find the ones who are guilty. You track them down. More time passes. BOOOOM, more Germans die because they happen to be German. same scenario, you try to track them down.. People with huge amounts of money begin supporting the people who love to blow up Germans, just because they are Germans. People with money who hate Germans begin developing weapons, buying weapons, stockpiling weapons which are capable of taking out hundreds of thousands of Germans with one suicide attack, just because they are Germans. These people keep saying "we are going to kill all Germans". Yet it is still talk, can't do anything about talk.. BOOM.. more Germans die. Then BLAMMO, a couple of thousand Germans die because now the people who hate you are in Germany, being backed by the people with the money, who give it to the people who have the weapons, who give the weapons to those who are now in your country and think they'll go to heaven if they blow up Germans, just because they are Germans. You and your country have finally had enough. You decide that the safety of your family, friends, and country is being threatened on a level that cannot be dealt with by just tracking down, after the fact, those who harmed you anymore. These idiots who hate you keep saying "we are going to kill all Germans anywhere in the world and we are going to make Germans bleed in their own homeland". Those same people declare war on all Germans. A dictator who has no value for human life whatsoever, even killing tens if not hundreds of thousands of his own people, makes a call for any and all people other than Germans to kill Germans, just because they are Germans. This dictator most certainly has the capability to get the weapons into the hands of individuals who can sneak into Germany and kill thousands of Germans, just because they are Germans. How do you know? because your own government helped him get technology to develop them when you both shared a common enemy. He has said he will use whatever resources he has to kill all Germans. He has called for a Holy War against all Germans. He will give lots of money to the families of anyone who kills Germans. He has convinced those who would kill Germans that they will actually go to heaven just because they kill Germans.

You have finally had enough of this. You decide that you are going to kill anyone who threatens Germans before they have the chance to kill your children. You don't care if the world hates you, because the lives of your family are more important than being hated. You are a peaceful people but you are finally at the point to where if anyone says "Kill Germans" you say with all your heart, mind, and soul, "fine, then fuck you and die". You have decided that the only way to protect your own people is by wiping out any possibility for those who hate you to attack you. Innocent people will die, granted, but your children will live.

This is how I think most Americans feel right now. We don't really care anymore who hates us, but by our very blood, if you threaten us again, you are going to die. Period. Dead terrorists can't sacrifice their lives to kill you. The *only* way to deal with these people who think killing you will get them to heaven is to wipe them off the face of the earth *before* they have the chance. You can't reason with them, you can't scare them, you can't convince them that their hatred of you is ridiculous, the only thing left is to kill them before they kill you. I'm sorry that some innocent people will die. I hate that more than you can imagine. I wish to God Almighty we were not in the situation we are in, but regardless of how we got into this situation, we will not sit around being targets anymore. And I think a great many people, especially the terrorists, are completly surprised, no, make that shocked at the lengths we are now willing to go to protect ourselves. They thought we are all talk. They thought they can kill us with impunity. They were wrong... dead wrong.

No offense meant to you by any of this post, but if you want to know how we feel as Americans, just picture yourself in our shoes, and then imagine your family and thousands of other families being wiped out with a gas attack. We are not going to sit back and allow it happen.

Take care,
David
 
When I first read this posting this morning, I wondered how on earth to say what I feel like I've been mumbling insufficiently for weeks. How do you explain to someone the very sickness in your body that feel when you are told, "By who you were born to be, you are not worthy of our concern. We'll make a show of sympathy when it's expected, but when the hard times comes, don't count on us." It rages the bile even more when those words come from so-called "friends."

Someone said to me in another thread that this war will not protect Americans. It won't make us any safer. However, I have to say David, you explained the so called "paranoia" very well. There is a reason that Americans think the way we do. We've lived too many years being told we are the target of the gun simply because we were born in this country. I'm sick to death of it. Frankly, I've hit the point that if for no other reason....the world knows we're going to defend our part of the world by doing whatever we can. There is a glimmer of hope that it will at elast deter the insane ones a bit.

Sure, sure...we're obnoxious, cocky, proud, self-involved....but we're also mothers and fathers who look at a world who hates us and wonder how on earth we can protect our kids. It would be negligent of us to face a world full of pointing self-righteous fingers and not take a stand.

I'm torn. I hate the idea of war. And I hate myself more that I support this one.

Jo
 
Joby has the right of it, as usual. I'll add the following thought.

Western societies afford their members considerable personal freedom to live their lives as they see fit. Those freedoms are not absolute, because we have to live together.

Similarly, the rights of the world's peoples to self-determination are not absolute. By its actions in Afghanistan and now Iraq, the US Govt has declared that those rights will be permitted only to those whose culture and aspirations do not threaten the people, allies and interests of the US.

We've been at war with the Arab Middle East for 30 years, but until 9/11 we weren't paying attention. I'm not particularly worried about what our enemies might do to us. It's far more important that they worry about what we will do to them. This war is a step in that direction, and it's about damn time.

Strelnikov
 
I will not go to great lengths to defend the points that the U.S.-led coalition is entering into this conflict with the oft-repeated inention of preventing civillian casualties as no nation has ever done before; or that this is about prevention of future September Eleventh-level attacks by dethroning one of the terrorists' prime supporters, and not simply vengeance or punishment toward Muslims in general. I remain confident that events will prove my point for me quite forcefully, as the deaths of innocent Iraqi citizens, while perhaps unavoidable, will be only a fraction of those murdered by Saddam every day to keep his people too frightened to revolt; and U.S. Marines will expose horrors of terror weapons and terrorist connections that no U.N. Inspection bureaucrats could hope to find even if granted another decade of guided tours by Saddam's thugs.

I will say, however, that America and Europe have deep cultural differences that prevent us from understanding one another all too often. I came across an article this week by John Derbyshire, an Englishman who became a U.S. citizen in recent years, that illustrates the situation brilliantly:

Mutual Incomprehension
A clash of civilizations.

Interviewing Dick Cheney on Meet the Press this Sunday, Tim Russert kept coming back to the question a lot of us, on both sides of the war issue, are asking: How on earth did the United States come to be so isolated? We have the support of a handful of governments, to be sure, but even they are acting in the teeth of strong opposition from their people. There is broad popular support for a war against Iraq in just two countries: the U.S.A. and Israel. How did things get to such a pass?

There are two popular answers: (1) America just doesn't understand how the rest of the world feels. (2) The rest of the world just doesn't understand how America feels. Different people tend to respond with either one or the other of these. Cheney, for example, favored (2).

I'm going to go with both. It takes two to tango, and a gulf of disagreement this wide tells us that there is profound misunderstanding in both directions. There are things about us that the rest of the world doesn't understand, and there are things about them that we don't understand. Please note that mutual incomprehension does not imply moral equivalence. The fact that you and I can't see each other's point of view does not rule out the possibility that one of us is right and the other wrong. The rightness or wrongness depends on external facts, which have been very thoroughly debated on this site and elsewhere. Here I am just going to look at the misunderstandings between America and the rest of the world.

How do we misunderstand each other? Let me number the ways.

They don't understand. — How a-n-g-r-y we are. It was our proud buildings that were brought down on 9/11. It was our office workers, airplane passengers, firemen and cops who got killed. Those attacks were the worst foreign assaults on American soil since the founding of the republic. We are mad as hell, and we have every right to be. It didn't help a bit that we heard stories from all over the world of people rejoicing in our loss and grief, standing up and cheering, dancing in the streets, writing smug editorial pieces in the London Review of Books to the effect that we had it coming. Those things just spread our anger wider, from the monsters who attacked us to the fools who try to give them moral credibility.

We don't understand — How much they resent our wealth and power. Fourteen years after the end of the Cold War, the sheer scale of our supremacy in the world has not really sunk in to our consciousness yet.

* Our military is better funded, better equipped, and more awesome by an order of magnitude than any other. Even before 9/11, we accounted for over 36 percent of the world's military expenditure. The next in rank, Russia, had less than six percent.

* Our economy makes everyone else's look puny — we currently have 43 percent of the world's economic production. Twenty years ago we fretted about rising competitors like Japan, a united Europe, Asian tigers, China. Now Japan is a busted flush, Europe is choking on red tape, the tigers are trending Japan-wards, and China is facing a major systemic crisis. We stand supreme.

* Our culture is omnipresent: peasant lads in Nepal wear NBA T-shirts, teenage girls in Sudan hum the Titanic theme, bankers in Buenos Aires meet at Starbucks.

To the rest of the world, we look like a 200-foot giant. Immense wealth and power may be respected, are occasionally admired, will sometimes be feared, but they are never loved.

"But don't they remember how we saved their bacon twice in the 20th century?" Sure they remember. Gratitude, however, is an emotion with a short half-life. If you save me from drowning, I shall be intensely grateful to you for days and weeks afterwards. Months and even years later, I may still regard you with a warm appreciation. If, however, you are still reminding me of the good deed 50 years on, I shall find it irritating. That is not fair at all, but it's human nature. "I did for you what you could not do for yourself" contains, if you look at it closely, an implied comment about my own abilities.

They don't understand — Our deep idealism. All right, Americans say, we are a giant. Are we not a kindly giant, though? Was there ever a giant with such a will to do good? Can you imagine what a world dominated by Russia would be like? Or China? (If you can't, ask a Hungarian, or a Tibetan.) We are proud of the great good we have done in the world — Lend-Lease, victory over fascism and communism, the Marshall Plan, and all the liberating and wealth-encouraging institutions we have helped fund and support — the World Bank, the IMF, the WTO, and, yes, in theory at least, the U.N. Sure, some of those good deeds benefited us, too. That is the "self-interest" in "enlightened self-interest." Will someone please note the other half of the phrase? Uniquely among all the Top Dog nations that the world has ever had, we do not believe that the international order is a zero-sum game, that what is good for us will be bad for you.

Even when we have blundered, it has been with good intentions. France fought in Vietnam to preserve her imperial standing and keep her planters in business; we fought in Vietnam to hold the free world's line against communist dictatorship. Every pronouncement from our leaders about possible war with Iraq comes with a rider that we shall do our utmost to avoid harming civilians. When did any other nation prepare for a military expedition with such oft-repeated declarations? When? The Chinese going into Vietnam in 1979? The Russians going into Chechnya in 1994? The French in Algeria? Iraq attacking Iran? The Libyans in Chad? When? When?

We don't understand — Their cynicism. Two stories.

* Around 1991 I was in a movie theater in London's Leicester Square (which is to say, a tony movie theater in the heart of London) watching Tom Selleck in Three Men and a Little Lady. Near the end of the movie, Tom looks into the eyes of his leading lady and says the words she's been longing to hear: "I love you." The London audience erupted in hoots of laughter. Can you believe it? Americans really go for that sappy stuff! What rubes they are!

* In China a year and a half ago, I was talking to one of my Chinese relatives about the United States Constitution. He waved away the Constitution with a laugh. "Oh, that's all nonsense. it's just a piece of paper. Doesn't mean anything."

There is an innocence, an earnestness about Americans that, all too often, foreigners just don't get. If we love someone, we look into her eyes and say so. We take our Constitution seriously. One way and another, we passed through most of the great disillusioning experiences of the 20th century, from the Great War to the sexual revolution, with our illusions pretty much intact. Outside the intellectual classes, irony doesn't come easily to Americans. Europeans who come to live in the U.S. find that they have to perform major adjustments to their sense of humor to avoid giving offense to the literal-minded inhabitants of this country.

Americans have had no prolonged education in cynicism. We have never been expected to look up to rulers who claim to be appointed "by the grace of God," yet whose failings are all too obviously human. We have never had to endure the indignity of living in a "people's republic" in which the actual people count for nothing, under a "constitution" whose sole purpose is to provide a fig leaf of legitimacy to naked, brutish power.

They don't understand — Our patriotism. There are styles of patriotism. Old ethno-nations like France, Poland or China tend to assume that patriotism is bred in the bone, and does not need to be shown or expressed except at times of dire national emergency. The flamboyant, everyday patriotism of Americans is unsettling to them, and looks like bumptiousness covering insecurity. There is perhaps no other country in the world in which, on a day that is not a national holiday, you can walk down a residential street and see flags flying from the doorposts. I have been hunting around on the web for statistics on flag ownership — how many citizens, country by country, actually own a copy of their country's flag. Couldn't find those statistics, but I feel sure the U.S.A. easily ranks number one in this table, too; and I bet that was true even before 9/11. I lived more than twenty years in Britain, and I can't recall a single instance of any British person I knew owning a British flag.

We don't understandTheir patriotism. French people, Germans, Russians, even Mexicans, nurse deep attachments to their history, their customs, their language and cuisine, their traditions, the great deeds of their ancestors. We may look down at these people's political incompetence: at France, which has been through five republics, two empires and two kingdoms in the lifetime of our own single Constitution, at the Russians, who submitted to be the slaves of amoral despots for 70 years, at the Germans, who surrendered their liberties to a psychopath with a comic-opera mustache and stood by obediently while he massacred millions of their unarmed fellow-citizens.

Still we should not forget that when you and your ancestors have lived in the same place for a thousand years, speaking the same language and eating the same food, practicing the same religious observances and quoting the same poets, gazing out over the same rivers and hills, you do not take kindly to the intrusions of a 200-year-old upstart nation, half of whose people do not seem even to be able to describe themselves as "American" without sticking something hyphenated in front of the word.

They don't understand — The reverence in which we hold our institutions. We scoff at our politicians, like everyone else in the world, but the institutions they represent are taken very seriously indeed. Shortly after 9/11, on this site, I offered a rude speculation about how Bill Clinton might have reacted to the crisis. I was flooded with indignant e-mail from NRO readers — Clinton-haters all, probably — asking me who the hell I thought I was, insulting the presidency at such a time. Not Clinton — they couldn't have cared less about him — but the presidency. The idea that the institutions of national governance are merely a racket, a cover for the machinations of a ruling class, is very widespread around the world. It occurs to every Chinese person, every Saudi, every Nigerian, every Russian, at least once a day. Even Frenchmen and Italians find themselves thinking it once a week or so. To Americans — except for some small cliques of race agitators and Europeanized intellectuals — it is utterly alien.

We don't understand — How badly George W. Bush travels. Never having been schooled in the fast repartee of a parliamentary debating chamber, Bush seems slow and inarticulate in response. Coming from the openly confessional tradition of Southern Christianity, he seems to foreigners to be religiose rather than religious. Having spent most of his life in a region with a strong sense of identity, he speaks his local dialect unselfconsciously, which makes him sound like a bumpkin to other English-speakers (and even to some Americans). Pronouncing "nuclear" as "noo-koo-luh" tells you nothing more about the man than that he comes from Texas and doesn't care who knows it. It is no more reprehensible than my pronouncing "schedule" with a "sh" instead of a "sk," and it is very unfair of non-Texans to snigger at it. They do, though, and I am not sure they are wrong to do so, bearing in mind what terrible responsibilities lie behind that word "nuclear."

They don't understand — The vitality of our political life. The tremendous events of 1775-1787 fired off a national conversation that is still in full flood today. Does the Second Amendment imply an individual right to own firearms? What exactly does "subject to the jurisdiction of" mean, in Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment? How can we square one state's approval of homosexual marriage with the "full faith and credit" of the Constitution's Article IV, Section 1? These things are the stuff of everyday conversation and endless public debate. American political culture has a vigor and breadth unknown elsewhere. The political life of other countries, when you go to them, seems dull and tame.

We don't understand — The narrowness of viewpoint expressed in their media. Centuries of state-sanctioned priesthoods and despotic bureaucracy have left other nations with a deferential attitude to bookish pontificators that America just does not know. As much as we complain of the leftist bias in our media, we can hardly imagine the situation in Britain, where the BBC — far the most important source of news and comment for most people — is staffed entirely by members of the hard-Left lumpen-intelligentsia, people who, to my certain knowledge (I am friends with some of them) were admirers of the Soviet Union down to the hour of its collapse. In France and Germany things are even worse. There is essentially no conservative movement in these countries, nor in any country but the U.S. There are no Second Amendment lobbies, no Club for Growth, no anti-abortion crusaders, no Christian Coalition, no Rush Limbaugh, no Sean Hannity. (I do not say these things don't exist in Britain, France, or Germany. I do say that they have no political influence whatsoever.)

Because of the lack of alternative voices, the effect of political correctness on these countries has been far more dire than in the U.S. In England last November, a journalist was locked up in jail for telling a pro-fox-hunting rally that country people should have the same rights as black people, Muslims, and homosexuals.

Unrestrained by any constitutional protection for free speech, the ruling elites in these countries are wielding p.c. as a club to smash all dissent from approved state doctrines, all resistance to state schemes of social engineering. No voices are heard in Europe now but the voices of the Leftist clerisy who control all the media outlets. These people are all anti-American. (In France and Italy, they are not infrequently actual Communist-party members — yes, Communism is alive and well in Europe.) It is not surprising that the ordinary people of these countries, bathed as they are in this flood of lies from morning till night, are suspicious of us. And this is only to speak of nations that have some decently long tradition of consensual democracy. Russia? China? Turkey? Fugeddaboutit.

I don't know what can be done to bridge this gulf of mutual incomprehension, not at this late stage of the Iraq game. If, as now seems likely (and in brazen defiance of my predictions), the administration is really going to take us to war, our conduct of that war may do something to correct misunderstandings about our goals and motives.

I wouldn't be too optimistic, though. If the war goes well, we shall be more of a giant than ever; if badly, we shall be that most contemptible of creatures, a giant brought low by hubris. And the ideology addled elites who run the media in Europe, and the state functionaries who run them most everywhere else, will, in either case, know what to say to keep the pot of anti-Americanism on the boil.

While I do not always agree with Mr. Derbyshire's often-pessimistic outlook on the situation, I do feel he's got the matter surrounded, and that he puts forth many ideas that I've held for some time, even the parts that aren't very flattering to America. I'm wondering if Elena or any of our other European collegues would agree with his assessment?
 
Aiight, I respect your post elena, as its good to get views and opinions from people on the other side of the world. I however, agree with madkalnod.

Here are my views on the war(as if anyone cares)
1. Saddam is a tyrannical madman that gases his own people, and is unstable at best.

2. I am usually skeptical about politicians, but i really feel that this war is for american defense, but also to free the Iraqi people. How can you say the war is unjust when the citizens of the country being attacked are on our side?

3. One of GW's finest lines of his term so far: "We will meet this threat now, with our Army, Navy, and Marines; not later, with our firefighters, policemen, and volunteers." I dont know when america adopted the policy that we have to be attacked in order to attack. Why do we have to let Saddam have the first strike?

4. I agree that the world has turned to resent America, what i dont understand is why. What have we done in the world to justify so much hate? Is it because of jealousy? thats what i tend to think. Beacause, otherwise, i see no reason to hate america. We fight for freedom, we help the oppressed people of the world, and people hate us for it...

ps: i just saw in Portland, that there have been 7 hours of protests, and some police officers have been treated for wounds from flying bottles and other things. How do you justify a protest for peace by getting violent??? :sowrong:

Its like the people that called our vietnam veterens "baby killers" are the same ones that are pro abortion...😕
 
The Plan

One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato.

For all of you who didn't vote in the last election.


www.newamericancentury.org

For all of you who think the Iraq thing is a product of recent events. Read the signatures at the bottom of the Statement of Principles and see if you can count all the Bush employees and relatives on the fingers of one hand.


Learn Chinese.

For all of you who think that we aren't going to be fighting a real war on a much larger scale as a direct result of current American arrogance and diplomatic ineptness.



Try to buy something that doesn't have petroleum based products as an ingredient or that wasn't produced, manufactured, delivered or modified with petroleum based products.

For all of you who think that this isn't all about money.
 
...and by the way

Gut gemacht Elena. Aber bitte nicht vergessen, dass nicht alle Amerikaner kriegslustige verruckten sind.
 
i may answer your question ThaDonMakaveli

You ask why the world hates us well I think it can be justified by two things. Recent events and we are the sole superpower in the world. One thing is that the world is angry that America went on with war despite the world's revolt against it. We are in a very split controversial war. Half are pro and half are anti. For the Iraq war i say i fall into the anti catagory. This has been the most controversial war since Vietnam. In this war even anti war protesters support our troops. We are Americans and we all wish them a safe return home. Most protesters are against President Bush. I agree with what they say and i also disagree with what they do. I agree with their stance and opposition not to be silenced but i disagree with their violent outrages and honestly they contradict they're purpose. They try to oppose violence by being violent is a total contradiction and I feel its shameful. The World is also denouncing US agression calling it "oppression and outrage." I agree with some countries protesters and disagree with other countries burning American flags when a good bit of the people here are against war themselves. Thats answer #1.

The second reason I feel is that we are like the Roman empire in certain ways. I am not calling us an empire by no means. I am saying we are like them. Romans back in those days set up legions in other countries. We also set up legions..........we call them Embassies. I am sure they are there to protect Americans living in the certain country and American security in general. Countries feel that America is getting to involved in their domestic affairs and should leave their country. Embassies have been attacked alot around the world. Protesters now are flocking around embassies threatening to burn them or revolt against America. Which i stress these are not the protesters i support. Protesting violence with violence is total ludacris. I hope i gave you some sort of answer in that 🙄
 
Steven Foster's perspective on Iraq

Die Damen Camptown singen diesen Song Doo-dah! Doo-dah! Der OH- racetracks Camptown lange fünf die Meilen! doo-dahtag! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wette ich mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, das auf dem Grau gewettet wird, das ich unten dort mit meinem Hut komme, der in Doo-dah Höhle ist! doo-dah! Ich gehe zurück nach Hause mit einer Tasche, die vom Zinn OH- voll ist! Tag de Doo-dah! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wettete ich mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, das auf dem Grau den langen Endstückfilly und die grossen schwarzen hoss Doo-dah gewettet wurde! Doo-dah! Sie fliegen die Schiene und sie beide schneiden über OH-! Tag de Doo-dah! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wette ich, daß mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand gewettet auf dem Grau, welches die blinden hoss in einer grossen Schlammbohrung Doo-dah sticken! doo-dah! Notenunterseite Can?t mit einem 10-Fuss-Pfosten OH-! Tag de Doo-dah! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wettete ich, daß mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, der auf der grauen alten muleykuh gewettet wird, zur Schiene Doo-dah angehen! Doo-dah! Das Pendel-Endstück schleudern sie über seinem rückseitigen OH-! Tag de Doo-dah! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wettete ich, daß mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, der auf dem Grau dann gewettet wird, entlang wie ein Eisenbahnauto Doo-dah fliegen! doo-dah! Runnin? ein Rennen mit einem shootin? Stern OH-! Tag de Doo-dah! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wettete ich, daß meinem Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, der auf dem Grau gewettet wird, sie flyin sehen? auf einer 10-Meilen-Hitze Doo-dah! Doo-dah! Ringsum die Rennenschiene wiederholen Sie dann OH-! doo-dahtag! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wette ich mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, das auf dem Grau gewettet wird, das ich mein Geld auf dem Pendel-Endstücknag Doo-dah gewinne! doo-dah! Ich halte mein Geld in einem alten Schleppenbeutel OH-! Tag de Doo-dah! Goin ' zum Laufen lassen aller Nacht Goin ', um allen Tag laufen zu lassen wettete ich mein Geld auf einem Pendel-angebundenen Nag jemand, das auf dem Grau gewettet wurde

Rook
 
Re: The Plan

avethibaltus said:
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. Plato.

well in platos case that would be everyone!

For all of you who didn't vote in the last election.

i'm so tired of this refrane! are you liberals asleep, or just refusing to except the fact that bush won? a recount was done after the election was over, it was sponsered (read paid for) by the miami herald; the final tally? bush pick up another 1000 votes in the recount!


www.newamericancentury.org

For all of you who think the Iraq thing is a product of recent events. Read the signatures at the bottom of the Statement of Principles and see if you can count all the Bush employees and relatives on the fingers of one hand.

if you're saying this action should have been done sooner, i couldn't agree more! problem is we had a weasle in the white house for the previous 2 term.


Learn Chinese.

For all of you who think that we aren't going to be fighting a real war on a much larger scale as a direct result of current American arrogance and diplomatic ineptness.

another refrane i'm tired of hearing! let's get it straight; the french, germans and russians were not arguing about a war, they were arguing that they didn't want to partisipate!
i think any nation watching the events unfolding in iraq,(and the chinese are!) will not want to butt heads with us for a long time to come



Try to buy something that doesn't have petroleum based products as an ingredient or that wasn't produced, manufactured, delivered or modified with petroleum based products.

For all of you who think that this isn't all about money.

maybe to young, no nothings, but not to anyone with common sense!
please get a new slogan book, these tired old lines are pathetic, and inacurate.
steve






 
The US government doesn't seem to be so sure that the Chinese can be treated like the Iraqis. How many other nations ever held on to US pilots in peace time for so long and suffered no lasting consequences? Truth is that they have us by the economic short hairs because our glory boys do not want to lose the huge Chinese market and potential wealth.

How come we aren't blasting the living crap out of North Korea, which is provably and in the opinion of several US military leaders more of a threat? Maybe because of their relationship to the Chinese? Or is it just because we are afraid of the technologically advance, well equipped, well led, and 100% effective North Korean Army and/or their super statesman leader?

China isn't that backwards land where all the women have bound feet anymore. They are an up an coming world power that will - because of our own actions - provide at the least the counterweight to American arrogance. At the worst, they will put us back in our place.

If you don't believe this, that's fine. But keep your eyes open and watch what the Iranians do once the US puppet regime is in place in Iraq. They are after all on the "axis of evil" list.

The people who ignored Mein Kampf can confirm the error of their actions. The New American Century is nothing more than Mein Kampf written in committee. I also suspect that the people we have in the past proudly called allies (the French and the Germans) have their own economic reasons for not participating in Pax Americana at this stage, but I like to think that at least the Germans understand the consequences of this Texan logic better than others, based on their own history.

Don't make the mistake of believing that there's a liberal on this side of the mike. I'm a realist who doesn't want to see one President destroy in one fell swoop all that millions of Americans have built up in the last several decades. And I would bet that I have done as much if not more to defend and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic (ring a bell?), than others.
 
avethibaltus said:

The US government doesn't seem to be so sure that the Chinese can be treated like the Iraqis. How many other nations ever held on to US pilots in peace time for so long and suffered no lasting consequences? Truth is that they have us by the economic short hairs because our glory boys do not want to lose the huge Chinese market and potential wealth.

How come we aren't blasting the living crap out of North Korea, which is provably and in the opinion of several US military leaders more of a threat? Maybe because of their relationship to the Chinese? Or is it just because we are afraid of the technologically advance, well equipped, well led, and 100% effective North Korean Army and/or their super statesman leader?

China isn't that backwards land where all the women have bound feet anymore. They are an up an coming world power that will - because of our own actions - provide at the least the counterweight to American arrogance. At the worst, they will put us back in our place.

If you don't believe this, that's fine. But keep your eyes open and watch what the Iranians do once the US puppet regime is in place in Iraq. They are after all on the "axis of evil" list.

The people who ignored Mein Kampf can confirm the error of their actions. The New American Century is nothing more than Mein Kampf written in committee. I also suspect that the people we have in the past proudly called allies (the French and the Germans) have their own economic reasons for not participating in Pax Americana at this stage, but I like to think that at least the Germans understand the consequences of this Texan logic better than others, based on their own history.

Don't make the mistake of believing that there's a liberal on this side of the mike. I'm a realist who doesn't want to see one President destroy in one fell swoop all that millions of Americans have built up in the last several decades. And I would bet that I have done as much if not more to defend and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic (ring a bell?), than others.


i KNOW the north koreans, and red chinese are watching what's happening in iraq. they are now seeing that we can hit any target with pin point accuracy. when iraq is over, and we turn east to korea, kim il sung will be much more co-operative.
oh, btw, the one hundred persent effective n.korean army??? what are you smokin?
steve
 
Oh come ON, Ice! You MUST'VE seen those commercials... With the duck? Who meanders around and quacks out: "AFLAC!!" They rule!

Then again, maybe I just need to get a life... 😛
 
Saddam Hussein has to go. He's attacked Muslims, Christians and Jews. He's attakced military & civilians, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, and Westerners. He's killed his own family members. But why do the Americans have to take the lead, and thus become the biggest target of ridicule and possible violent repercussion? He's currently more of an Arab problem - why do they never seem to solve their own issues?

For example:

Is there any major Arab mover & shaker in trying to bring a peacful end to the Palestinian/Isreal conflcits?

Any real Arab attempts to end the Iran/Iraq war?

What did any of the Arab countries do in attempt to bring a quick end the the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? Some countries opened their boarders to refugees (and closed them when the stream became large) and that was about it. No Russina night clubs blew up or big towers came faling down. No peace talks. And no Arab alliance tried to rebuld the infrastructure of the country, either, after the war.

Iraq invaded Kuwait. So the U.S. and allied troops came in to defend them. They weren't even a democracy, they were/are a monarchy. And one of the worlds welthiest countries that somehow couldn't put a standing army together to defend it's own boarders. As mailgned as the French are currently, the Magineu Line was an honest if failed attempt at defense (sorry about the spelling). The Arabs at first didn't want the U.S. to get involved, saying it was a problem that they would take care of. Instead, the West takes care of it (because the West had seen how the Arabs deal with their problems in the past...) & becomes a target for extremists. And, again, did any oil-wealthy Arab country try to rebuild Iraq?

But when it comes to going after other people, the Arab nations very often seem well united.

And why no talk of the Saudi Al-Queada links? They are stronger there than in Iraq (the 911 hijackers were mostly Saudi, funded by a Saudi. One of the students was recieving money from a Saudi princess...). Heck, Iraq was an ally to the U.S. until the government higher ups secretly sold weapons to what was considered an enemy nation, Iraq. Iraq might have more of a jump with its weapons of mass destruction that the Saudis - that's the main thrust of this war, not 9/11 - but the Saudis have more of a link to terrorism, from what I've seen. And they're are ally!

Anyway - I think Hussein has got to go. I'm just not sure the West needs to do it. Why don't the Arabs take care of their own problem this one time - they have the $ and the weaponry, both U.S. and Russina made. But if the U.S. has to be involved, the let it be done quickly and as surgical as possible - which, thankfully seems to be happening - while still being respectable towards other capitalist democracies (unlike our allies the Saudis and Kuwaitis) who disagree with us. The name calling from both sides is pretty disheartening.

The U.S founding fathers were, in general, religous, military men. They were also free thinkers and philosophers.

And another question - if the U.S. and allies are doing this to free the Iraqi people and to disarm the dictator, do these have to go hand in hand? I mean, why was there no U.S intervention in South Africa, N. Ireland, Rawanda, Liberia, Tienamen Square, North Korea post-war, etc.... is it becuase there is/was a need for freedom but the weapons of mass destruction weren't there? If that was the case, why the involvement in Bosnia, Honduras and Haiti within the last 2 decades?



And as founding father Ben Franklin once said - fart proudly!
 
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