The Last (and Most Depressing) STAR TREK Sequel of All Time

[Lee47]

I just watched STAR TREK : First Contact a couple nights ago, for the first time in years, having just bought the movie collection on DVD for the first time. You probably remember the plot- the horrible cybernetic Borg want to "assimilate" Earth and turn us all into robot zombies. They fail in the 24th century (HUMANS WIN!), but then fly an escape pod back in time to the 21st century to change history and assimilate us in the past (BORG WIN!). But CAPT Picard and the USS Enterprise follow them back and prevent them from conquering the primitive, violent 21st-century humans (us) and destroy the remaining Borg in the process (BALD HUMAN WINS!).

How the worst and last Star Trek sequel ever comes into being is this- if the Borg can travel back in time and assimilate Earth any time they want to, why would they bother to fly to Earth first in the future and give us a chance to see them doing it, and thus catch them in the act? Wouldn't it make more sense- remember, these are genius-level computer hive minds, they just look like zombies- to fly back in time while still at home in the Delta Quadrant, THEN cross the galaxy and get assimilatin'? And who says there is a limit on how far back you can go?

So, here's the plot of STAR TREK XXII: No More Star Treks-

Act I- In the Delta Quadrant, the Borg Collective realize how frakking idiotic they are, create a temporal vortex, travel back in time to 15 minutes after the Big Bang, and wait for life to evolve, so they can assimilate it.

The End.

Notice how logic ruins time travel plots, if you give the bad guys the ability to just travel through time at will?

But the 2009 STAR TREK film was awesome. Can't wait for "Into Darkness".

 

[dalekfire]

Oh you silly man. If the Borg actually did that and just went back in time to assimilate everyone preemptively, then there'd be nobody who will actually make said Star Trek movie about the Borg going back in time to assimilate everyone preemptively! And even if there was such movie, there'd only be Borg there to watch it, anyway! There'd be no TickleTheater, because then everyone will eventually adapt to being tickled in different ways, and tickling won't exist anymore!! 😱

...oh, wait, we're just talking about movies? :lol Hahah, yeah, you're right in that there's always some sort of logical holes in time-travel plots - even with like, "Back to the Future," of which I thought was WELL-thought-out. As for "First Contact," I'd venture an argument that the Borg are perhaps too forward-thinking and reactionary to effectively plot out something as seemingly simple as popping back through time anywhere they want, to target Earth (i.e., they only attack other lifeforms when they consider them a threat, instead of just immediately attacking/assimilating them on sight). The initial assault in the movie was almost successful had the Enterprise not warped in, so maybe that bit of time-travel was (to the Borg at the time) simply a secondary plan.

 

[Tom Tickle]

Dalekfire's postmodern answer notwithstanding, you have to consider what's happening to space-time itself 15 minutes after the big bang, how long they'd have to wait for life to appear, then realise that if they are around to observe the beginning of life, then why not fabricate it from inanimate matter anyway. There's also the Novikov self-consistency principle as well.

 

[Lee47]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

Just pointing out what always subconsciously irritated me about First Contact's plot, finally I've worked it out in words- if the Borg had time-travel technology in the first place- why bother with an invasion in the 24th century? It would be more efficient and a guaranteed victory to go back in time FIRST, then invade Earth in, let's say, 2260.

Or is the point of Borg assimilation that they want to take over the life forms AND their technology? Which would be wierd too, since their crap is much more advanced than our crap to begin with.......

Nope, the Borg just make no damn sense to me. Let's go fight some Romulans.

(Are there any stories out there featuring T'Pol from "Enterprise" or Seven of Nine from "Voyager" being tickled into experiencing/showing emotion? That would be hot...) (Wait, wasn't her name "Sixty of Nine"? 😉)

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

Another scientific "faux pas" in the series portrays black holes as methods of "Intersteller Travel" whose gravity wells can apparently be escaped from when RIGHT NEXT TO IT. Never mind of course that the closer you get to a black hole the more you experience a time dilation effect (where everyone else but you sees you going slower and slower) AND that the gravity of a black hole is so INCREDIBLY STRONG that even LIGHT cannot escape from it (and thus I highly doubt an ion drive would allow a starship to outrun it LET ALONE prevent it from falling in). I WILL however give the series credit where credit IS DUE...it DID help advance our race technologically (as well as scientifically).

Several prominent inventors/scientists where fans of the series and have/where inspired by the show itself. Whether or not that will enable our species to survive past the 22nd century is another matter entirely but still, it did HELP inspire people. I for one hope that replicators are eventually conceived (aka materializing specified solid matter objects from liquid gel packs that themselves are produced from garbage/waste products).

 

[Lee47]

Not sure about the replicators BUT there was a piece on NPR about the next best thing- there is a company developing and apparently soon to be selling machines which, when supplied with a pattern and specs, can then be fed with the correct raw material and will build, layer by layer, the item you programmed into it. I believe these were already operating in some form or another in the '90s, FIREFLY had a compressed cardboard model of Serenity which was built by just such a device- but at the time the cost was huge, from the story I heard these machines will soon be used in light industry and eventually even in your home- so if you need a new pair of socks or want a replica of the USS Kelvin (hey, didja see? Quantum Mechanix is coming out with a replica of the Kelvin!), you just program the pattern in and viola!

The main barriers to home use are going to be the initial cost of the thing, and (I suppose) the size of the machine, a small home machine would limit the size of things you could make- but if you had one 10' x 10', you could program it to make new automobile hoods all day, I guess.

 

[Lee47]

A 3D printer, just saw it on the news. They are currently working on making artificial limbs using them to "print" completely accurate/matched parts, without having to go through the tedious and painful molding & fitting process. This was what I was talking about- the closest thing to replicators we have.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

Not quite utilizing energy to break apart and rearrange atomic and molecular bonds to make some new out of something old but I'll take any scientific achievement that helps out people with missing limbs ANY DAY of the WEEK.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

Paradoxical note. If the Borg go too far back in time then they create a paradox. Because it was Q responding to Riker and Picard's arrogance that caused the meeting the first place. Remember when Q flung the Enterprise into the Delta Quadrant. If that conversation never happens then the Borg never learn about Earth/humans/Federation until they were originally supposed to. So even if the Borg went back in time and conquered a primitive Earth they would have caused a massive paradox because that conversation with Q never would have happened.

 

[Lee47]

I guess by the same logic, the Borg in First Contact set off the same paradox- and it appeared to have worked, at least at first?

That response was far more serious than my OP deserved.... I was really just goofing around, I guess that is the danger of applying satire to such a beloved SF franchise.

But it's also gratifying to have provoked so many deep thoughts.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

I guess by the same logic, the Borg in First Contact set off the same paradox- and it appeared to have worked, at least at first?

That response was far more serious than my OP deserved.... I was really just goofing around, I guess that is the danger of applying satire to such a beloved SF franchise.

But it's also gratifying to have provoked so many deep thoughts.

Serious? That was fun... serious fun. :lol

 

[TheTickleMonster]

I'm going to disagree with you because I loved First Contact. 🙂

 

[Lee47]

I never said I didn't love all the films- even ST V, as goofy as it was in places (and as contradictory as it was to a lot of the established canon- just HOW MANY decks does NCC-1701-A have?). And First Contact was a particularly good entry, I rated it just behind Wrath of Khan and Star Trek (2009).

BUT even those outstanding movies which I named as "best ever" are still full of technical errors, plot inconsistencies, and just plain goofs- which, as a devoted fan, I love to point out. (Example- from the ice planet Delta Vega, Spock Prime gets to watch the fate of the planet Vulcan in Star Trek [2009]. Either Delta Vega is in the Vulcan system- which leaves a lot of unanswered questions in itself- or Vulcans have eyes that can see across interstellar distances.)

All of this is in a spirit of loving good fun, as a true fan I want Star Trek to be successful but I would love it if it could also be a more perfect Trek!

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

I very much agree with that sentiment. Not just in Trek but in all sci fi movies that I watch. I am not trying to be nitpicky when I find plot holes in the technology (or just the writing in general). It is just that I am trying to fully get into the environment that the story is delivering to me. When I see a plot hole it is like am I going to suspend belief or is it going to bug me? Most times I just let it go and enjoy the story. Sometimes they just glare at you and eat away at you.

Honestly though, it is hard for a writer or even a team of writers to anticipate every angle that the story is going to be analyzed through. They have a few eyes we have thousands, millions. So as long as it isn't blatantly lazy writing I can give them a pass. However, we should hold them to a standard. I think that the more we point these things out the harder they try to do it right. Just look at how better sci fi movies have gotten in the past 30, 40, 50 years. Moviemakers really had very little desire to put much backstory into films in the past. Viewers just accepted what they saw. That is not the case in the present. Moviegoers, particularly sci fi, demand the plot make sense logically. For the most part we get that (to a point). We are getting quality in the modern day but we shouldn't let them get lazy. So, as long as it is reasonable, pointing out plot holes I in no way criticize.

 

[Lee47]

If I may be so bold as to say it goes beyond science fiction to all film genres, it just happens that SF attracts a more intelligent & educated audience to begin with, and we are far more inclined to pick up on the (unavoidable) errors that creep in to all fictional works- as opposed to the masses who just sit back and let it pass through them, maybe randomly striking a brain cell on the way, but otherwise not making much of an impression. And watching science fiction is hard work, since you have to comprehend a universe that doesn't exist outside your door- perhaps this is why Firefly never had a chance on Fox network (just look at the rest of their programming, and then compare).

FeatherDaemon, may I paraphrase from "Balance of Terror" and say- "You and I are of a kind. In this reality we could be- friends." 🙂

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

I certainly agree with your statements. As for Firefly I really am surprised that another network hasn't picked up the series. There are networks out there producing quality shows. AMC is doing a great job with The Walking Dead. Likewise HBO is doing Game of Thrones right. Defiance is looking decent on SciFi.

FeatherDaemon, may I paraphrase from "Balance of Terror" and say- "You and I are of a kind. In this reality we could be- friends." 🙂

Thank you, I appreciate that. There are more of us here at TT. They drop in from time to time.

 

[Slaver123]

I thought "Nemesis" was the last Trek sequel...

 

[Lee47]

I thought "Nemesis" was the last Trek sequel...

In Trek's fictional chronology it works like this-

The events of "Star Trek: Nemesis" take place.

Then, in 2009's film titled simply "Star Trek", the timeline "rewinds" to the year 2233, and the birth of one James Tiberius Kirk- but events taking place at the same time as that birth involve an alteration of the history of the universe as we know it (due to a mysterious ship which appears in the first 5 minutes of the show and ABSOLUTELY KICKS ASS- no more will be said here, spoiler alert), and it is made clear during the course of the film that this is now an alternate timeline- whatever our characters may have been or done in the history we know (i.e. Original Series, Next Gen, DS9, Voyager), those destinies are now up for grabs. So in one sense it is a sequel (and you'll see in what sense once you watch the whole thing), but it has also been referred to as a "reboot".

I highly recommend watching it, as it is absolutely superb, and is required viewing before going to see next month's "Star Trek- Into Darkness" (I believe that opens May 17).

Hope that answered your question, Slaver!

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

(due to a mysterious ship which appears in the first 5 minutes of the show and ABSOLUTELY KICKS ASS- no more will be said here, spoiler alert)

One of the huge things that bugged me was apparently NONE OF THE FEDERATION SHIPS had SHIELDS which made absolutely NO SENSE (as in the first series [when Kirk is captain of the enterprise]) the Enterprise DID IN FACT have SHIELDS. Is there an explanation for this or am I the only one who noticed this?

 

[Lee47]

You're not the only one, beautiful. (and I love your avatar BTW!) I just took the situation as-

#1- the advanced tech (remember where it came from) employed against our team just ripped right through the shields altogether (causing my initial "Holy F^CK!!!" moment in the theater)

#2- the devices (I hesitate to say 'weapons', I'll explain in a second) don't really appear to be energy-based, they seem more like independent probe devices that rely on good old kinetic energy/ chemical explosives to do the dirty work- and do Federation shields stop missiles? I can't remember where this is really addressed in any of the series!
#2.5- really a sub-topic; our villains are in the business of ripping planets apart for a living, then taking the good bits home with them- so the devices they shoot at Our Heroes seem to me like they are not traditional weapons as much as repurposed drone planet-crackers, in fact they seem to work a lot like cluster bomb dispensers when you watch them hit; not very sporting, but VERY effective

I was in the service and am a military historian by training (as well as being a veteran of a thousand psychic wars...) so I tend to look at kinetic energy weapons as the most effective game in town, it's hard to think that somebody in the 23rd century won't still be using them to punch through hulls- it's worked since Trafalgar for us...

I will say that I enjoyed seeing the phasers used as point-defense guns, shooting down the incoming missiles- we have had that ability since the 1980s, why would we become LESS advanced in the future?

Good night for now, see you tomorrow.... here's a big kiss for you, Rox, put it anywhere you would enjoy it.... X 🙂

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

(as well as being a veteran of a thousand psychic wars...

Blue Oyster Cult

Heavy Metal... great movie.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

You're not the only one, beautiful. (and I love your avatar BTW!)

Thanks hun but flattery will get you no where with me. Though I do like that you love my avatar (I'm a big 80's Emma Frost comic book fan). ^_^

.... here's a big kiss for you, Rox, put it anywhere you would enjoy it.... X

Uh...hun...I don't swing that way. Just a heads up (in case ya didn't know).

Getting back to the topic at hand, I believe the shields on federation vessels act much like Forcefields (aka blocking a certain amount of physical objects or amount of energy). You do have a good point though in the fact that the Romulan Mining Vessel was from very far in the future (perhaps well past Picard's life time). Therefor, I can assume that even a mining vessel of the Romulan Star Empire would be equipped with weapon that can penetrate a 22nd Century Federation's Starship's shields.

 

[Lee47]

Yes Rox, I picked up on those things- but I appreciate all beauty even from afar- and who doesn't like a purely friendly kiss on the cheek...

On the subject at hand- it was revealed (SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!) by Spock Prime that he and Nero were from 129 years in Kirk's future. I seem to recall that TNG was set 75 years after the "classic" movies, which were 15-20 years after the original voyages- and "Nemesis" was 15 years after Picard's first mission on Enterprise-D. So Nero comes from only about 20 years after Picard's time- but consider the phenomenal leap in technology between TOS and TNG (imagine what 1701-D would have done to the Reliant) or, in Earthly terms, let's pit a single Aegis cruiser against a WWII carrier task force and see who wins.

But I still think the Romulan cluster-f*cker devices at least originated as planet-cracking tools- undoubtedly doubly effective against a starship hull!

 

[xodlirv1]

Here's something that bothered me about "First Contact": the scene where Picard turns off the safety in the Holodeck and uses the guns to take out the Borg.

Why would Starfleet allow construction of a Holodeck where the safety could be turned off to the point where it's lethal?

 

[Lee47]

Also that it happened about 3 times every season- but there's probably something in the waiver you sign when you join Starfleet.

"I will not hold Starfleet or the Federation liable for transporter accidents, holodeck accidents, my fellow crew members being possessed by alien entities and killing me, being killed by my fellow crew members after the alien possesses me, unexpected life support outages, failures in the technobabble generator...etc....etc...."

By now the disclaimer probably runs to 10 pages. 😀