Uncreativity

[ElFewja]

I can't think of a good title.

This stems a little into fanfic's but I'm not entirely going that way.

Actually I wanted to ask about how others feel when an author borrows another's ideas, which relates to fanfics. I mean, that's really all they are, assuming you are skilled and not changing a lot in that particular universe; you're taking already designed characters and developing a situation around them of your choosing, which I think is safe to say is tickling as far as this forum is concerned. It certainly has it's own merits, showing the skill of an author to both carefully and fully analyze a character so that s/he does not modify them beyond believability but at the same time engineers a believable situation for them to fall into within that universe.

Not that I particularly like them, though I think I have two within my needs-finishing/needs-editing folders. I need to get on that, I keep putting those off.

Really, what I wanted to talk about was borrowing another author's ideas, universes, etc., assuming that the original author is ok with it. Is it something that should be frowned upon, as the author of the new story is not being as creative as he could, or is it properly considered as a sort of compliment to the original author? Or a mixed area of gray?

I hope there's more to it than the column A/ column B or black/white that I've listed. I want there to be.

Additionally - and specifically for sable - I ask this because... well, I went and did it. I started thinking of the old Nylon Dungeon series for whatever reason the other night, and an idea just popped into my head... so I wrote it down. Absolute garbage first draft, probably my poorest work to date... so bad that I actually edited it within twenty four hours, which is something I abhor doing as it does not allow enough time to pass so as to let the ideas fully cultivate. Well, anyway, it felt really tasteless to me, and I wanted outside commentary. Further, I had forgotten how much those stories - as good as they are, don't get me wrong - are very much rape fantasies. There is absolutely no denying that; these stories are fully and entirely about rape. So I felt bad just... writing it. But, well, yeah. Hitting post, going to sleep.

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[Sablesword]

I may have said this before, but doing stories with someone elses setting and / or someone elses characters is easy to do but hard to do well. When it is done well, it can be very very good. But it's easy to do badly.

So, if it's really important that you use the authentic original characters & setting, and you have the blessing of the original author (or the original author is safely dead), and you think you can do a good job, then go for it. But if a "file off the serial numbers" version will work just as well, or if the original author would rather you didn't, or if you're using the authenticate original because you think it will be easier rather than better, then don't.

(Short version: It depends.)

As for the Nylon Dungeon stories, they strike me as being torture fantasies rather than rape fantasies. They're not about tickling per se, but rather about tickle torture. The ticklers of the Dungeon strike me as sadistic bastards who use tickling as a torture because they can't come up with anything more efficiently nasty. If they could, they would use that instead and not bother with tickling at all. (No, I don't like the Nylon Dungeon stories at all. How did you guess?)

I see rape fantasies as being the fantasy of being able to have desirable sex without the awkwardness of having to ask for or give consent first, with a side order of the victim being so wonderfully desirable that the attacker can't hold back, and another side order of the attacker being so wonderfully strong and competent that the victim gets overcome without actually getting hurt. The gal gets to be both virtuous and passionate and ends up with the guy she wants, the guy gets to have the girl without having to do anything unmanly in the process, and the bad and embarrassing parts all get set aside. It's wonderful for everyone, except for the small detail of only working as a fantasy, and not at all in real life.

The Gor novels, for example, have a lot of rape fantasy in them, despite the heavy D/s and SM elements. They're chock full of captive collared women who love their chains, who love being slavegirls, and who look up and say things like "I beg slave rape, master." In the Nylon Dungeons, OTOH, the victims almost all dread and fear the next tickle-session. There is D/s and SM, like the Gor novels, but we don't see a lot of women who love being tickle-slaves or who run eagerly to the tickle-stocks when commanded to do so. We see tickle torture, but not tickling as rape fantasy.

 

[ElFewja]

I said rape fantasy because these women are kidnapped and a large majority of the stories involve or reference the girls being forced or pressured into sexual acts. They are much more torture than they are tickling, so I can agree there, but hm. I'll think on it a bit more.

I'm not familiar with Gor, so I can't exactly comment about it.

On Tickle-Slaves... hm. Those reactions are not a-typical in real life settings, I would say, which makes it interesting that they aren't largely the focus in a story. But then, I guess if a story is a fantasy, and if (from my experience) most people genuinely enjoy tickling (such a loaded statement, I'll cover it later), then it follows that the fantasy would be what is not as likely (in this case, the zomg no tickling reaction).

I really am probably just extrapolating from this forum, but in my last/only relationship, my 'lee really enjoyed being tickled and would place her feet into my lap or something. Besides, the 'lees here probably like it for one reason or another, else they wouldn't be here.

As for others? Hm. I think that most just haven't experienced the hands of a decent 'ler who knows how to play it off well (I.E. torturous; either fun or sensual). Rambling.

Post.

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[Sablesword]

Well, according to The Joy of Sex "Tickling excites some people out of their minds. For others it's agony, but increases the general state of arousal." But some things are best dealt with as fantasies, even when enjoyable. I mean, most people like sex, but being (or owning) an eager sex-slave is really something better left to fantasy. (With live-action roleplaying counting as fantasy.) So I wouldn't think less of a fantasy about eager excited tickle slaves just because lots of people are eager & excited about being tickled in real life.

I'm not familiar with Gor, so I can't exactly comment about it.

Kids these days. No knowledge of or respect for the classics 😛

Anyway, to get back to your original problem: Is the story you're trying to write one that really wants to be an authentic Nylon Dungeon story? Or is it something different that has only a family resemblance to the Nylon Dungeon? What other stories does it have a family resemblance to?

If it's an authentic Nylon Dungeon story, your problem may be a piece of baggage that really does not belong in the Nylon Dungeon story-world. In that case, you need to identify and drop that baggage.

If it's not an authentic Nylon Dungeon story, your problem may be one of trying to force a fit that doesn't work. In that case, you need to find or create another setting. My bias is toward "roll your own settings" but you might find a different, already-created, setting where your story is a better fit. E.g. your story might be one that belongs in the setting of "The Voyage Out" and "Galley Slave"

Just some thoughts

 

[ElFewja]

It's not really about it fitting or not. I think I did a decent job of merging into that universe.

Just feels tasteless to take someone's ideas like that, since I'm creative enough to do my own things. I abhor fan-fics for the most part, so it's more like that. Coupled with going back through those stories again to familiarize myself and just kind of being disgusted by the... hm. The nature of the story's, I should say. That these girls are there against there will, that it is incredible torture, and that they're being used for sexual acts. I mean, the focus wasn't really on tickling. It was much more something that was happening in the background, with a large emphasis on the kidnapping of these women and the sexual acts. That disgusted me, and is probably why I consider it rape porn.

The thing is, that was how he characterized these people; it was never about their adventures within the dungeon persay; rather, the stories always emphasized the before they were here bits, and how they were brought there. That was one thing I did not do, since I had no intention of those aspects being included. But well, yeah.

Mostly though, it was such a piss poor writing attempt in rough draft form that, in addition to doing a fan-fic (which I'm not so fond of) and going back over these and considering them rape fantasy (I realize it's debatable but it's still how I consider it), I felt horrible after writing it. Since then I went through and edited it, spent a lot of time doing that, and fixed the things I didn't really like. I mean, I had this huge grammatical problem that I just couldn't wrap my head around, so I jumped past it and ignored it; another point, two things clashed with each other and I just couldn't find a way to make it work... stuff like that. I feel better about it, but still not so great. Maybe I'll put it in front of other things and post it so I can get it out of my mind. Hm.

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[Sablesword]

OK, somehow I had gotten you confused with the various defenders of doing fanfic. Apologies.

In any case, why does your story need to be a Nylon Dungeon story? Maybe you should try a rewrite that puts it in a different setting. "I think I did a decent job of merging into that universe" hints to me that it didn't really belong - a story that really belonged would provoke something like "The story had to be a Nylon Dungeon tale; I couldn't think of it as being set anywhere else."

And out of morbid curiosity, what was the big grammatical problem?

 

[Sablesword]

BTW, you have seen the thread I started a while back on fanfic, right? http://www.tickletheater.com/showthread.php?t=54151

 

[ElFewja]

I believe I read the fan-fic post; I think that was during one of my away-from-TT modes, though, so I didn't reply.

When I was sitting in bed the one night, the plot line just popped into my head. It's the sort of thing that only really worked in that setting; the plot involves some escapees being brought back. It's true that I could have gone somewhere else with it, but the situation would have been so similar it wouldn't have been a true step away from Nylon Dungeon anyway.

I'm still trying to master story writing that is 1000 words or less, and an already established setting was perfect for that. Then again, that's also cheating.

The grammatical thing. Hm. I wiped it from my memory. I remember approximately where it was, but not what it was. Sorry.

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