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Vanguard To Trident By Eric Grove
- Thread starter Neutron
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red indian
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Hi Tronny!!!.............
....thanks for the tip, i will get the book. I still have a bone to pick with you about Atlantic convoys. I watched a TV show only a few weeks ago, which was made in America, by Americans, for Americans and totally supports my view about U.S. reluctance to adopt the convoy system, against U.K. advice, and (once sufficent tonnage dissapeared beneath the waves) acceptance of the system.
Heres one for you Tronny, I have just finished reading, "Bismark" by D.Bercuson and H.Herwig. published by Hutchinson (London) as Iam sure you will agree, one of the great maritime epics. I am sure you will join with me in defying anyone not to find this a gripping story,full of twists and turns of fate, missunderstandings, spectacular missjudgements, and tradjedy.
....thanks for the tip, i will get the book. I still have a bone to pick with you about Atlantic convoys. I watched a TV show only a few weeks ago, which was made in America, by Americans, for Americans and totally supports my view about U.S. reluctance to adopt the convoy system, against U.K. advice, and (once sufficent tonnage dissapeared beneath the waves) acceptance of the system.
Heres one for you Tronny, I have just finished reading, "Bismark" by D.Bercuson and H.Herwig. published by Hutchinson (London) as Iam sure you will agree, one of the great maritime epics. I am sure you will join with me in defying anyone not to find this a gripping story,full of twists and turns of fate, missunderstandings, spectacular missjudgements, and tradjedy.
Neutron
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You Need To Check Your Facts..
And I suggest you read Clay Blair to do so.
In WW1 the Brits were extremely hesitant to adopt the convoy system, they felt it was an anachronism. It wasn't until Admiral Sims (A US admiral) did an assessment and recommended the US NOT get into the war unless the brits adopted the convoy system did the Brits get their act together.
In WW2 the Brits were at first hesitant to adopt the convoy system. But prior to US Involvement in the war they adopted it. The Us always supported the Atlantic Convoys. In fact our first two destroyer losses occured escorting Brit convoys prior to our WW2 entry. What the US did NOT support was the coastal convoys. In other words after our entry into WW2 we were slow to organize South American to US shipping into convoys. The reason? We didn't have enough escorts. We were short on escorts (having to fight a two ocean 5 front war tends to do that to you). Plus the escorts we had were being supplied to the North Atlantic Convoys. The Us outlook was if we had unescorted convoys it would be a bigger massacre than it already was. They were most likely right. One forgets the US in 1941 was NOT the industry giant she became in 43 to 45. There were very few ships, and we had to repair those damaged in the Pacific war. Also keep in mind, in 1942 when the major US shipping losses occured we simply didn't have the benefit of two years of convoy escorting experience the Brits had.
The Bismarck. Damn epic sea story, and one that proves the truth is always stranger than fiction. I think it's the best story of the war, at least the most epic, one I'm surprised more women don;t like. It has EVERYTHING. Suspense, mystery, tragedy, let down, buildup, more let down. Triumph, Then tragedy (all the Germans who died unnecessarily after the Bismarck sunk). Great story.
Buy the Grove book. I got mine on Amazon.com for something like 6 or 7 dollars US. It's about the choices the Brits had to make concerning their Navy post WW2. And why they made the choices they did. It's FASCINATING, especially when Groves points out just how weak the Brit Home Fleet was at the end of WW2. I like Grove, he wrote a great anaysis of the Graf Spee chase (The Price Of Disobedience). He along with Wilmott are about the clearest headed analysts I'm seen in a long time.
Oh yeah, It was the story of the Battleship Bismarck (an overrated design by the way) that originally got me interested in Naval history, battleships in particular. To date that interest has cost me over 20K in books, countless hours in trips, and even a phone call to Ted Briggs (Brits will know who he is). The story is an EPIC and if you get the chance I heartily recommend the movie Sink The Bismarck. It doesn't get much better than that. AND IT'S TRUE TOO!!
Tron
And I suggest you read Clay Blair to do so.
In WW1 the Brits were extremely hesitant to adopt the convoy system, they felt it was an anachronism. It wasn't until Admiral Sims (A US admiral) did an assessment and recommended the US NOT get into the war unless the brits adopted the convoy system did the Brits get their act together.
In WW2 the Brits were at first hesitant to adopt the convoy system. But prior to US Involvement in the war they adopted it. The Us always supported the Atlantic Convoys. In fact our first two destroyer losses occured escorting Brit convoys prior to our WW2 entry. What the US did NOT support was the coastal convoys. In other words after our entry into WW2 we were slow to organize South American to US shipping into convoys. The reason? We didn't have enough escorts. We were short on escorts (having to fight a two ocean 5 front war tends to do that to you). Plus the escorts we had were being supplied to the North Atlantic Convoys. The Us outlook was if we had unescorted convoys it would be a bigger massacre than it already was. They were most likely right. One forgets the US in 1941 was NOT the industry giant she became in 43 to 45. There were very few ships, and we had to repair those damaged in the Pacific war. Also keep in mind, in 1942 when the major US shipping losses occured we simply didn't have the benefit of two years of convoy escorting experience the Brits had.
The Bismarck. Damn epic sea story, and one that proves the truth is always stranger than fiction. I think it's the best story of the war, at least the most epic, one I'm surprised more women don;t like. It has EVERYTHING. Suspense, mystery, tragedy, let down, buildup, more let down. Triumph, Then tragedy (all the Germans who died unnecessarily after the Bismarck sunk). Great story.
Buy the Grove book. I got mine on Amazon.com for something like 6 or 7 dollars US. It's about the choices the Brits had to make concerning their Navy post WW2. And why they made the choices they did. It's FASCINATING, especially when Groves points out just how weak the Brit Home Fleet was at the end of WW2. I like Grove, he wrote a great anaysis of the Graf Spee chase (The Price Of Disobedience). He along with Wilmott are about the clearest headed analysts I'm seen in a long time.
Oh yeah, It was the story of the Battleship Bismarck (an overrated design by the way) that originally got me interested in Naval history, battleships in particular. To date that interest has cost me over 20K in books, countless hours in trips, and even a phone call to Ted Briggs (Brits will know who he is). The story is an EPIC and if you get the chance I heartily recommend the movie Sink The Bismarck. It doesn't get much better than that. AND IT'S TRUE TOO!!
Tron
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red indian
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A question for you tronny..........
.....what,s the best book in your opinion on the hunt for the Bismark? I would like to read more. The only other one I have read is by Ludovik Kennedy who served on one of the destroyers involved in the chase, it is a good book as it gives equal analysis of both sides and has the added edge that can only come from someone who was there.
.....what,s the best book in your opinion on the hunt for the Bismark? I would like to read more. The only other one I have read is by Ludovik Kennedy who served on one of the destroyers involved in the chase, it is a good book as it gives equal analysis of both sides and has the added edge that can only come from someone who was there.
Neutron
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Ludovic Did Write..
A darn good book. I think maybe the best on the chase itself.
A German named Baron Von Muellenhiem Rechburg wrote a great book. He was the senior surviving German Officer and gave a wonderful account of what life was like on the Bismarck before and during the chase.
It's very even handed and his description of their thoughts when they sunk the Hood is fascinating. (The Germans felt great at first, then terrible over the loss of life). The Baron was at one time the Adjutant for Captain Lindeman (Bismarck CO) so he has a lot of excellent insight.
I have the book it's titled Battleship Bismarck: A Survivor's Story. The book is available at Amazon.com and the UK Amazon.com
The good Baron died earlier this year. I sent his family a card.
This one is supposed to be good when it comes out
The Bismarck Chase: New Light on a Famous Engagement
This one too, mostly because it's written using declassified data that wasn't available when earlier accounts were written. (I don't own it YET but will shortly. A friend told me it's good.
Bismarck: The Story Behind the Destruction of the Pride of Hitler's Navy by David Bercuson and Holger Herwig.
To date Ludovics book is the best I've read mostly because he captures the tenseness and feel of the chase.
Too bad Eric Grove hasn't written a book on the Bismarck, I love Groves work, he's an excellent historian and very much into the politics and whys of the Royal Navy. (Wilmott is good too, but sometimes gets rather loose with the facts. His analysis is however is first rate, I suggest reading his book Battleship).
Tron
A darn good book. I think maybe the best on the chase itself.
A German named Baron Von Muellenhiem Rechburg wrote a great book. He was the senior surviving German Officer and gave a wonderful account of what life was like on the Bismarck before and during the chase.
It's very even handed and his description of their thoughts when they sunk the Hood is fascinating. (The Germans felt great at first, then terrible over the loss of life). The Baron was at one time the Adjutant for Captain Lindeman (Bismarck CO) so he has a lot of excellent insight.
I have the book it's titled Battleship Bismarck: A Survivor's Story. The book is available at Amazon.com and the UK Amazon.com
The good Baron died earlier this year. I sent his family a card.
This one is supposed to be good when it comes out
The Bismarck Chase: New Light on a Famous Engagement
This one too, mostly because it's written using declassified data that wasn't available when earlier accounts were written. (I don't own it YET but will shortly. A friend told me it's good.
Bismarck: The Story Behind the Destruction of the Pride of Hitler's Navy by David Bercuson and Holger Herwig.
To date Ludovics book is the best I've read mostly because he captures the tenseness and feel of the chase.
Too bad Eric Grove hasn't written a book on the Bismarck, I love Groves work, he's an excellent historian and very much into the politics and whys of the Royal Navy. (Wilmott is good too, but sometimes gets rather loose with the facts. His analysis is however is first rate, I suggest reading his book Battleship).
Tron
red indian
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Thanks for that Tronny..........
.....I thought maybe you had read the Ludo book, and I am pleased you found it as good as I did! I read it while convalescing after one of my seemingly endless hand operations. I read it with out a break from cover to cover. I will try and get the books you have mentioned. BTW have you read "Riddle of the Sands"? (sorry if thats a daft Q!) I am just about to re-read it.
.....I thought maybe you had read the Ludo book, and I am pleased you found it as good as I did! I read it while convalescing after one of my seemingly endless hand operations. I read it with out a break from cover to cover. I will try and get the books you have mentioned. BTW have you read "Riddle of the Sands"? (sorry if thats a daft Q!) I am just about to re-read it.
red indian
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Yes Tronny.......
......thats the one....its many years ago that I read it.....but I am looking forward to it.
......thats the one....its many years ago that I read it.....but I am looking forward to it.
TickledToDeath
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My bad..
I thought you were talking about a man who switched from Double Mint to sugarless gum.🙄 😉
TTD
Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself😀 😉
I thought you were talking about a man who switched from Double Mint to sugarless gum.🙄 😉
TTD
Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself😀 😉
red indian
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I agree Tronny..........
......Alanbrooke the C.I.G.S. during most of WW2 was scathing in his critisisms, but just how did he screw that nuclear sub reactor out of you guys, saving us years of costly research and development???!!
......Alanbrooke the C.I.G.S. during most of WW2 was scathing in his critisisms, but just how did he screw that nuclear sub reactor out of you guys, saving us years of costly research and development???!!
Neutron
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He Didn't..
In fact his getting you that reactor actually ended up setting your nuke sub program back considerably. They had to redesign the back end of the boat to allow the use of the US Reactor. The Dreadnought never was a very good boat, and in fact had to be retired early because of the problems caused by the backfitted use of the US Reactor. In the long run it tripled the cost of the Brit boat AND it set back Brit nuke research because the government felt it wasn't needed. Mountbatten did have a good relatonship with Rickover, and if he did anything to help the British navy on matters reactor it was in his insisting on getting the latest US Reactor, vice the one we wanted to sell.
I had no idea Mountbatten was assassinated by the IRA. I always thought he was a victim of that bomb, vice a target of the bomb.
Tron
In fact his getting you that reactor actually ended up setting your nuke sub program back considerably. They had to redesign the back end of the boat to allow the use of the US Reactor. The Dreadnought never was a very good boat, and in fact had to be retired early because of the problems caused by the backfitted use of the US Reactor. In the long run it tripled the cost of the Brit boat AND it set back Brit nuke research because the government felt it wasn't needed. Mountbatten did have a good relatonship with Rickover, and if he did anything to help the British navy on matters reactor it was in his insisting on getting the latest US Reactor, vice the one we wanted to sell.
I had no idea Mountbatten was assassinated by the IRA. I always thought he was a victim of that bomb, vice a target of the bomb.
Tron
red indian
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A question for you Tronny.........
......one that i have often wondered about. Who first came up with the idea of sailing to windward? i.e. coming up with a sail shape that allows a vessel to sail almost directly in to the wind.When did it become generally accepted and used? I have often seen explanations of the science behind it but not its history and origins. Looking forward to your reply.
......one that i have often wondered about. Who first came up with the idea of sailing to windward? i.e. coming up with a sail shape that allows a vessel to sail almost directly in to the wind.When did it become generally accepted and used? I have often seen explanations of the science behind it but not its history and origins. Looking forward to your reply.
Neutron
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Sailing Into The Wind...
Is one cool concept. The thought that up to a 230 Degree arc you can move upwind amazes me.
I THINK the first to do it was a Brit. And the first Navy to take advantage of it was Brit. I'm still looking it up though.
And I'll look into it more later. Right now I'm on this HUGE Titanic kick. I just found two new books and I got a copy of some of the blue prints.
Tron
Is one cool concept. The thought that up to a 230 Degree arc you can move upwind amazes me.
I THINK the first to do it was a Brit. And the first Navy to take advantage of it was Brit. I'm still looking it up though.
And I'll look into it more later. Right now I'm on this HUGE Titanic kick. I just found two new books and I got a copy of some of the blue prints.
Tron
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