When does no mean NO?

[BellaRisa]

Hi folks,

This question was raised for me in the 'Real experience and Question' thread. I got a little intense over there, because it's a touchy subject (har! good one) for me. In that thread a nice young man told us that he kept tickling a bitchy girl's feet at a party, over and over, when she kept saying no and clearly didn't like it. He asked why the others at the party seemed to look down on him for it, instead of joining in. (he mentioned being a bit sloshed when he did it, but posed the questions soberly). Never mind why this bugged me, but it gave me pause for thought.

1) How do people here judge when to touch/tickle another person, and when not to, in a social situation? I am honestly asking, because I realized I never go to vanilla parties anymore. Seriously, I work at home and virtually all of my friends are in one adult community or another. When I socialize, no one who didn't know me would dream of touching me without permission-we have strict rules about that sort of thing. Flirting is done verbally,(and beautifully I might add), not physically. I haven't had to fend off a buzzed casanova-octopus in years, and I haven't missed it 🙄.

And ladies: 2)How do you 'show' a guy that his touching/tickling advances are welcome, or not? If you tell a guy to stop and he keeps trying, is it endearing and flattering, or annoying and a turnoff? And what makes the difference? Someone brought up a good point, that often a girl starts out saying NO but then they end up in the bedroom. How do these mixed signals occur, what changes for you about the situation?

Also for the ladies: 3)Are your ticklish areas-ribs, underarms, feet-less private to you than your more sexual zones (breasts, bottom, etc) and more acceptable for interested guys to touch in order to flirt? Personally all of my body is on an ask-before-access basis, but since I'm ticklish everywhere my whole self is sexual and hence private-my judgement is probably harsher .

Thanks, I appreciate any and all comments 🙂

Bella

 

[Phineas]

Hi folks,

hi, bella.

1) How do people here judge when to touch/tickle another person, and when not to, in a social situation?

Having been burned so many times in the past by conflicting signals, I have decided that I am mentally incapable of reading signs people give. If they do not tell me something directly, I ignore it. That said, I refrain from tickling anyone, pretty much at all, precisely because I do NOT like to be embarrassed or ostracized.

The only times I've ever tickled anyone was when we were already dating. I never really physically flirted with anyone; I generally asked them out, if they said yes, I would fumble along like the social retard I was.

(Looking back, it's a wonder I ever managed to marry such a wonderful lady as my wife. I am truly lucky that she loves me unconditionally even though I'm a worthless moron at times.)

I am honestly asking, because I realized I never go to vanilla parties anymore.

I never went to vanilla parties in the first place. But I will agree that the types of gatherings you go to color your perceptions, and I feel sorry for any newcomer who accidentally treads upon the unwritten law that they need a written invitation to shake your hand. 😉

On the other hand (or foot) when a botched social interaction at an S&M party can lead to... err, very bad things, people are going to be a little more cautious and absolutely sure of what they do. I would hope, anyway.

Seriously, I work at home and virtually all of my friends are in one adult community or another. When I socialize, no one who didn't know me would dream of touching me without permission-we have strict rules about that sort of thing.

If it's made well-known beforehand that Violators Will Be Slapped, this is hardly surprising. See above regarding an extra layer of caution needed at such gatherings.

Flirting is done verbally,(and beautifully I might add), not physically. I haven't had to fend off a buzzed casanova-octopus in years, and I haven't missed it.

You're lucky that you can have the word spread ahead of time. Try going into a bar and telling the bartender to announce that you don't wish to be touched and have the bouncers keep an eye on anyone lest they wanna, and see how far it gets you. Most of us don't have the luxury of rigid social guidelines set in place for newcomers to be expected to adhere to. The rules change from social situation to social situation.

And ladies: 2)How do you 'show' a guy that his touching/tickling advances are welcome, or not?

While I don't presume to speak for all ladies, or in fact any ladies, I can relate my own past experience here from the other end. Very often I would witness what has already been related; that being, women would say things like "oh, he's such an asshole. Yes, we've started dating, why?"

If you tell a guy to stop and he keeps trying, is it endearing and flattering, or annoying and a turnoff?

There is no direct answer here. It always depends on the guy, and the woman's mood... which changes quite often. Whether it's flattering or not, though, if she's dead-set against his advances, chances are he won't get anywhere.

And let's not forget the woman who are annoyed, but act flattered.

And what makes the difference? Someone brought up a good point, that often a girl starts out saying NO but then they end up in the bedroom. How do these mixed signals occur, what changes for you about the situation?

See above. Women are not generally aggressive enough to make a man believe they want him to go jump in a lake. Couple that with society's perception that no means yes, also couple that with women who change their minds by the nanosecond, and you really have no way to establish a set rule. I'd be very surprised if any of the women who do respond to this have acted consistently with every man who's approached them.

Also for the ladies: 3)Are your ticklish areas-ribs, underarms, feet-less private to you than your more sexual zones (breasts, bottom, etc) and more acceptable for interested guys to touch in order to flirt? Personally all of my body is on an ask-before-access basis, but since I'm ticklish everywhere my whole self is sexual and hence private-my judgement is probably harsher .

This will vary by the individual, and the culture. As previously mentioned, due to whom I married the prime company I keep nowadays is Chinese women; non-Americanized, born-in-the-East Chinese women. I would never dream of tickling or even touching any of them without express permission from both them AND my wife beyond a handshake; when my wife's boss began kissing me hello, I was surprised. Some people consider it okay to just generally touch, some people are very conservative, and many lie in varying shades in between. A very Americanized, liberal Chinese former co-worker of mine got very embarassed when I complimented her feet (easily the most perfect feet I've ever seen, by the way. *sigh*).

I should mention the majority of my flirting has always been verbal, primarily because I've always been afraid to touch someone for the fear of it being unwelcomed.

Thanks, I appreciate any and all comments

I think I'm going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with a live waterfowl for mine, but I'm too drowsy to care.

Bella

not Bella, Phineas.

 

[Novus]

Signals

Those are sticky questions you asked. Sometimes No means Yes and Yes means NO. There is no way to know really.

 

[BellaRisa]

I think I'm going to be beaten about the head and shoulders with a live waterfowl for mine, but I'm too drowsy to care.

Not at all, thank you for your in-depth responses 🙂. Let me say a few things: one, we're not that bad, a handshake would be just fine (though I've had people reach over and grab my hand and shake it without me offering it, which is kinda weird to me). Also, my group goes to a regular bar to hang out twice per month, and the bartender/bouncer dude will ask a guy to leave if he puts his hands on a lady without permission. I always thought that was part of the bouncer's job.

Also, I really acknowledge and sympathize with males in this goofball society, it must be hard to know what the hell women are thinking and we do change like the weather. I really respect guys who do their best to do what's right ( for that nanosecond, anyways 😛 )

Bella

 

[Phineas]

(though I've had people reach over and grab my hand and shake it without me offering it, which is kinda weird to me).

amusing anecdote time.

I broke my right hand once. It was a boxer's fracture, which basically snapped the last bone in the hand... the one the pinky is connected to. I got in the habit of shaking hands left-handedly because of being in a cast, and favoring the healed hand for a long while after the cast came off. It still hurts on odd occasions...

Also, my group goes to a regular bar to hang out twice per month, and the bartender/bouncer dude will ask a guy to leave if he puts his hands on a lady without permission. I always thought that was part of the bouncer's job.

Sure, but only *after* the lady complains. I was trying to allude to the fact that you had these "rules" in place beforehand and expected people to know and adhere to them, when they're a little strict and out of the ordinary to us common folk. While not touching people without their permission is a rule of regular society, often you don't find out whether there is consent until after you've already touched, and by then it's too late. Of course, we're often afforded a single "oops"; the person didn't know... but yea, if the person insisted on persisting, I'd expect security to be involved post-haste.

Also, I really acknowledge and sympathize with males in this goofball society, it must be hard to know what the hell women are thinking and we do change like the weather. I really respect guys who do their best to do what's right ( for that nanosecond, anyways )

My wife often says she would enjoy watching me "be with" a prostitute, if only to see if I could "perform with an audience". I tell her she should shut the hell up because I know and she knows that the moment I even looked at a hooker I'd be dragged off the scene before I could even *consider* reaching for my wallet.

Yet she insists on telling me it would be all right, and that she's curious.

what was that you said about nanoseconds? *whine*

('sides, have you SEEN Chinese hookers? DAAAAAAAMN!)

 

[Double T]

Re: Signals

Those are sticky questions you asked. Sometimes No means Yes and Yes means NO. There is no way to know really.

I disagree totally! Comunication is key before any activity takes place. You just don't go grab someone, deciding on your own whether or not no means no. Getting to know someone first usually avoids all sorts of unpleasant situations. Being direct, honest, and agreeing on a SAFEWORD is the way to tell for sure when no means no.

See how simple that is?

 

[ticklemebreezy]

Re: Re: Signals

I disagree totally! Comunication is key before any activity takes place. You just don't go grab someone, deciding on your own whether or not no means no. Getting to know someone first usually avoids all sorts of unpleasant situations. Being direct, honest, and agreeing on a SAFEWORD is the way to tell for sure when no means no.

See how simple that is?

AMEN to that Double T!

 

[venray]

No means no.......

It's that simple...If a woman means yes when she says no to me she will surely be disappointed as no means no to me....safest rule to live comfortably by...


Ven

 

[Daumantas]

Likely scenario...

If a woman were to call you, say, an "unbelievably loathsome pig-dog," that's probably a negative signal.

 

[TickledToDeath]

There are soooooooooooooooooooooooooo many variables that come into play here to have a blanket set of parameters.

Out in the general public in a bar is, more than likely, a "No Tickle Zone" aside from a poke or three here and there now and again😉

During a wedding and a funeral would fall into the same zone.

Tickling someone while they are hanging off a cliff by the tips of their fingers falls there as well.

There are alot of people who would not like to be tickled at or in a public atmosphere.
Anything more than a playful kootchie koo would tend to be out of line.
If it is a totally "vanilla party" situation consisting of friends who have no clue of the tickling community, that person may wish his/her secret passion for tickling to remain a secret.

There are those rare times when that person is just not in the mood to be tickled 😱
There are two kinds of "No".
The "No" that really does not me No.
The other "No" is a clear "NO".

IF the tickler is paying attention, she/he should know what "No" is being No'ed.

Both are fairly obvious.

TTD

 

[milagros317]

Re: No means no.......

It's that simple...If a woman means yes when she says no to me she will surely be disappointed as no means no to me....safest rule to live comfortably by...
Ven

Amen. Give people that you don't know the courtesy of believing that 'no' means 'no.'

In a session with Mistress Zara, of course, we have a safeword set up. In that context, saying 'no' or 'mercy' is part of the play; the safeword means "stop this instant."

 

[Sunriseticklee]

Re: Re: Signals

I disagree totally! Comunication is key before any activity takes place. You just don't go grab someone, deciding on your own whether or not no means no. Getting to know someone first usually avoids all sorts of unpleasant situations. Being direct, honest, and agreeing on a SAFEWORD is the way to tell for sure when no means no.

See how simple that is?

*Applause...APPLAUSE I SAY!!!!*

Couldn't have said it better than Double or Venray!

I guess that's what happens when old men put their heads together!
Heehee 😛

Live, Laugh and TICKLE
Sunrise

 

[kurchatovium]

I think ven is right no means no to me. Its the simplest way to avoid jail, being fired, and other not very good things.

 

[Myriads]

If you don't know the person well (well = comfortable talking about most highly personal topics with them, AND you've done so extensivly at some point) Then No means NO all the time. Period.

The level to which one can push things to is almost imposible to know with people whom one is good friends with. With a stranger???? Not a place to experiment.

Myriads

 

[Cyrano]

When it comes down to it, usually guys are expected to make the first move. Now, say you read the signs wrong, you tickle a girl, and she says no, I think it expected that the guy stop. Now granted, sometimes a lady will say no and mean yes, when it comes to tickling. However; a gentleman should take her word for it and stop. Now the ball is in her court. If she meant yes, it's her job to communicate that to the boy. It can be done in many different ways, but subtly is not one of those ways. Sure, subtly can be good when it comes to flirting, but not when it comes to physical flirting. If say she takes her shoes off, that is not an invitation. If she wants to continue flirting, she'll let you know.

Making that first move isn't fair game either, you can't just walk in a room and grab every girl until one doesn't say no. You've got to read the signs, some girls love physical flirting, others don't. If you can't read the signs, you shouldn't flirt physically. It's a lot like driving a car really.

Lastly, flirting is supposed to be light and fun, but strict rules apply. People sometimes hurt others the most when they don't believe they can do so. One's body is their's, plain and simple. It belongs to no one else. However playful your intentions, if they say, "no," they are not saying, "you don't like tickling me," they're saying, "I don't like being tickled by you," and no one has the right to go against their wishes.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

simple answer to a simple question

no means no, as soon as it's spoken!
the other questions were asked of the ladies here, so i'll not answer them. i will have my wife read them later and post her replies.
steve

 

[JoBelle]

NO means no all the time.

Within the boundaries of a consentual relationship, it still means no. Being in a relationship does not give a person full reign over another person's body without their permission. As mentioned by Double T, there are basic commonsense things that should happen to prevent a misunderstanding.

Frankly, if you're one of the folks who doesn't believe No Means Come To A Complete Stop Right This Very Minute, well...you're one of the problem kids. 😛

Joby

 

[Daumantas]

On a vaguely related topic -

There's another fetish board out there (I'll decline naming it) that I stop into from time to time. One guy has posted pictures that (so he claims, anyway) are of his secretary and taken without her knowledge by a hidden spy camera. The thing that blew my mind is that only ONE dude out of about 10 who responded to his post pointed out how completely inappropriate, not to mention illegal, his action was.

Fantasize all you WANT, people (God knows I've written stories to fulfill the needs of the nylon-stocking and nonconsensual tickling fantasists alike), but for God's sake distinguish fantasy from reality.

 

[Haltickling]

NO means NO means NO. I wouldn't like anybody to ignore my own NO, so I don't do it unto others.

In my teeny years, I got the impression that some girls mean yes when they say no, and I overstepped that barrier once. Boy, did I regret that mistake! I'm healed for good. Now, if a girl says no, it's her turn to offer it (whatever "it" may be) if she actually meant something else. Quite often, when a relationship has deepened, they say "maybe a little." I'm quite content with that.

 

[Strelnikov]

Quoting TTD:

There are two kinds of "No".
The "No" that really does not mean No.
The other "No" is a clear "NO".

IF the tickler is paying attention, she/he should know what "No" is being No'ed.

Both are fairly obvious.

TTD

***************************

And that was pretty much my response to the young man's post in the other thread. By "obvious", I mean (and I think TTD does also) to anyone who is past junior high school age. As for paying attention, well, he was drunk. That's not an excuse for being an a**hole, but it happens sometimes, one of the hazards of going to parties.

From his later posts, I get the feeling that he has learned a lesson from this experience. I suspect that he'll be a little more attentive and careful in the future.

How would I have felt if the 'lee had been my daughter? Depends on what kind of "No" was being No'ed. In the example given, I would have been tempted to knock the guy's block off. If the "No" was the other sort, as has happened, no problem.

Strelnikov

 

[TickleCrazy]

Bella, here are a woman's answers to your interesting questions:

1) How do people here judge when to touch/tickle another person, and when not to, in a social situation?

During my married life all my social situations except in the bedroom have been vanilla. There is a definite divide between the tickling behavior of 20-somethings or single 30-somethings (tickling may happen among roudy groups or as part of flirting) and over-40's (tickling anybody except your spouse, your date or your kids is a bit of a no-no).

2) How do you 'show' a guy that his touching/tickling advances are welcome, or not?

My warm tickle reaction includes cute giggling, girlish whining "stop" or mock-scolding (because after all, it TICKLES!) while smiling or half-smiling. Also part of it is repeated glancing or sustained eye contact, moving my body away but not too far and for only a short time, and reciprocating the tickle or otherwise teasing or sparring verbally or with a gesture, etc.

In my cold tickle reaction there is no cute giggling, squirming or playful reciprocation, only a stiff "STOP!" with a seriously disapproving expression. I might move far away or stand my ground with my hands extended to stop the tickler. Any person who doesn't understand these signals is an annoying turnoff.

Misunderstood signals occur when the tickler focuses on his own desires and does not constantly reference the ticklee's body language and coordinate with her. Maybe after an initially warm tickle response the 'lee's mood cools down but the 'ler wasn't paying attention. She gets bitchy and he's clueless.

3) Are your ticklish areas-ribs, underarms, feet-less private to you than your more sexual zones (breasts, bottom, etc) and more acceptable for interested guys to touch in order to flirt?

Hard to answer. I guess it's no. My ticklishness does make certain touching more private. It's either untolerable because it tickles so much, or it's erotic and feels inappropriate with anyone except my honey. My ticklishness got in the way a bit even after we were married. But now that I'm fully aware and accepting of my fetish and have shared it with my husband, I invite him to touch me in ways that used to feel too intense.

 

[giggledude]

In my time, I had an award-worthy No-meaning-More, but it never appeared in the company of strangers. That would have felt too creepy. It might make a lovely fantasy for someone to know exactly when one meant exactly what one said and when one meant otherwise, but so many fantasies are best off remaining such.

How much, if at all, do people think it's a gender or power concern? It just occurred to me that in many, perhaps most, M/F situations, it may be out of the power of the recipient to stop the encounter by force. (Throw in some same-sex pairings and the rare F/M situation of the Milagros fiction sort, but I don't mean to include situations in which there's actual restraint, as then either we're already in nonconsensual land or the restrained one has already surrendered at least some quantity of volition.) In theory, I want to draw a parallel to battered husbands, many of whom don't stop the assault even when they can, for one reason or another, so that the No would mean No as in, Don't-make-me-back-it-up, but just wonder if it's practicable. If a person who experiences being tickled as an assault is more powerful than the assailant, how possible is it to take it the way one might take blows? I suppose it varies from person to person, but there are some images one could conjure in which his expressing a refusal of consent through verbal means only stretches the bounds of credulity.

 

[dvnc]

Hi folks,

Hiya Ms. B

1) How do people here judge when to touch/tickle another person, and when not to, in a social situation?

Generally, I'm fairly tactile. Yeah, I *know* you know that. 😉 In social environs, though, I don't do more than shake hands and pat shoulders until I feel I know the person to be comfortable with my touch. Just seems rude t'go pawin' someone when they don't want it.

I'm more of a mind to just point to a ticklish potential opening (arms raised, a dangling foot, etc.) and ask, "Ticklish?" The response is always interestin', and folks make their willingness to interact that way VERY clear.

Gatherings are a more serious situation, in that there's often not a "common ground" for the new kids, so we make clear the rules for such an event. No touching without EXPRESS permission, in those cases. Only know of one offender, who has since apologized to both offended 'lees, repeatedly, and has since played safely and fairly. Still cranky about it, but at least the man made up for it.

For what it's worth, bella, I'd be mighty steamed if some woman started tickling me without permission.

No means no, period. If a body wants to be tickled, I've found that they make it very clear. It's very simple to stop tickling, when someone has STARTED a tickle-fight, for instance, and ask 'em if they mean no when they say it. A gentleman can always pause to ask.

Those knowin' me are likely laughin' at the image of me bein' gentlemanly. 😛 Given that I've had the delight of tickling so very many, and I've always stuck by a no-means-no method as a man, it's worked for me.

I'm livin' wit' my 'lee now, after all.