I have read in many threads people arguing that non-consensual tickle torture is ok in fantasy and not in reality? Why is it ok in fantasy? Say someone writes a story about having sex with 8 year olds, but states it is just fantasy and not reality. Is that OK? And if not what is the difference?
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Why is fantasy Ok?
- Thread starter Iggy pop
- Start date
TickleMantis
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Wow, good point.
Let me start with tickling, the way we see it. I'll make up a situation, lets assume a house keeper is cleaning the house when the owner (lets say the house keeper is a female and the owner is a male) arrives home early, he then tickles the house the keeper until she is lying down and in a position to restrain her, he does so then proceeds to tickle her four several hours.
In real life the situation I described above would be a total violation of human rights. Now lets say someone writes a story about one such situation, fictional of course. The story is wonderful and every reader loves it. It is fictional, untrue, there were no real people and no one actually suffered and it was made for the enjoyment of the readers.
It is perfectly acceptable in fantasy because no one is hurt, that is why.
As for writing stories about little children- These people can't help being into little kids, they can however stop themselves from acting on such urges as us ticklers don't tickle torture our house keepers. I personally would have no problem if some guy sat at home writing stories about little kids or fantasising over them. The second he begins looking acting on these fantasies he automatically becomes the lowest scum in the universe, as would anyone tying their house keeper down and tickling them.
My point is, and this may just be my personal oppinion, that you can sit around and have a fantasy about ripping some guts out if thats your thing, thats fine I see no problem with that, but the second you act on that and cause actual pain or suffering to real people you have crossed the line and probably aren't worthy to call yourself a human being.
Just my two cents.
Let me start with tickling, the way we see it. I'll make up a situation, lets assume a house keeper is cleaning the house when the owner (lets say the house keeper is a female and the owner is a male) arrives home early, he then tickles the house the keeper until she is lying down and in a position to restrain her, he does so then proceeds to tickle her four several hours.
In real life the situation I described above would be a total violation of human rights. Now lets say someone writes a story about one such situation, fictional of course. The story is wonderful and every reader loves it. It is fictional, untrue, there were no real people and no one actually suffered and it was made for the enjoyment of the readers.
It is perfectly acceptable in fantasy because no one is hurt, that is why.
As for writing stories about little children- These people can't help being into little kids, they can however stop themselves from acting on such urges as us ticklers don't tickle torture our house keepers. I personally would have no problem if some guy sat at home writing stories about little kids or fantasising over them. The second he begins looking acting on these fantasies he automatically becomes the lowest scum in the universe, as would anyone tying their house keeper down and tickling them.
My point is, and this may just be my personal oppinion, that you can sit around and have a fantasy about ripping some guts out if thats your thing, thats fine I see no problem with that, but the second you act on that and cause actual pain or suffering to real people you have crossed the line and probably aren't worthy to call yourself a human being.
Just my two cents.
Limeoutsider
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I think its because in your fantasies no one gets violated (or whatnot) and in real life, someone does
thoug question! very one indeed!
And it is so complicated to answer and so complexe that I´d prefer to discuss it in portuguese without being afraid of bad spelling and misunderstood frases...but I´ll give it a try for the importance this matter has.
First big question/answer:
We are all human and as so we have a dark side and a more bright side, everyone in this forum has the abillity sometimes to think on bad things, to exagerate his pride, lust, arrogance, envy.....every single bad feeling exists inside of us and it´s up to everyone to balance our minds and to keep us in ways that we consider as correct and within our moral standards. But even those of us who trully achieve a balance can sometimes play with bad feelings and think on things that in the real world would go far beyhond what we consider correct....and here are we getting into fantasies.
So evryone has his fantasies and there´s no problem if sometimes, in particular one´s we go slightly or not so slightly away from our moral standards, no problem, if we can make the difference and if we trully have moral standards in real life than it shold be no problem to play with bad things in an imaginary world. Yet, a balanced persson should also be able to keep it just to simple play and not become dependant in no way of fantasies that go past what he/she considers correct.....in such a case...something is going wrong and some thinking has to be done, maybe with guidance, in order to cut the evil from the begining. And now we get to another problem:
If we consider ourselves persons who are balanced and who can enjoy fantasies without harming anyone in real life, than that´s ok to us....but I place another question, a big one:
should we share all our most crazy fantasies?
anyone thought on what our most crazy fantasies can do in some not so balanced minds wich can be out there reading them?
To those who followed my view it´s the same old problem of violence on tv, books and mass media in general...it´s basically the same problem:
we know that violent movies aren´t reallity, we know that in reallity it´s no fun to kill people as it seems to be in a movie, as we know that in reallity is no fun to have someone crying and screaming for help in reall distress and agony while being tickled.
Those who are balanced know that.....but what about those who can´t make the difference and are out there?
Now keep in mind that I´m some sort of liberal persson who finds it hard to strike violence on tv and as so I might not be totally against fantasy sharing.....but I do realize the risks envolved and I think everyone should keep them in mind and be alert to any damage´s.
Greetings from Portugal
hope I was not confusing 🙂 lol
it would have been so much easy to discuss in portuguese 🙂
And it is so complicated to answer and so complexe that I´d prefer to discuss it in portuguese without being afraid of bad spelling and misunderstood frases...but I´ll give it a try for the importance this matter has.
First big question/answer:
We are all human and as so we have a dark side and a more bright side, everyone in this forum has the abillity sometimes to think on bad things, to exagerate his pride, lust, arrogance, envy.....every single bad feeling exists inside of us and it´s up to everyone to balance our minds and to keep us in ways that we consider as correct and within our moral standards. But even those of us who trully achieve a balance can sometimes play with bad feelings and think on things that in the real world would go far beyhond what we consider correct....and here are we getting into fantasies.
So evryone has his fantasies and there´s no problem if sometimes, in particular one´s we go slightly or not so slightly away from our moral standards, no problem, if we can make the difference and if we trully have moral standards in real life than it shold be no problem to play with bad things in an imaginary world. Yet, a balanced persson should also be able to keep it just to simple play and not become dependant in no way of fantasies that go past what he/she considers correct.....in such a case...something is going wrong and some thinking has to be done, maybe with guidance, in order to cut the evil from the begining. And now we get to another problem:
If we consider ourselves persons who are balanced and who can enjoy fantasies without harming anyone in real life, than that´s ok to us....but I place another question, a big one:
should we share all our most crazy fantasies?
anyone thought on what our most crazy fantasies can do in some not so balanced minds wich can be out there reading them?
To those who followed my view it´s the same old problem of violence on tv, books and mass media in general...it´s basically the same problem:
we know that violent movies aren´t reallity, we know that in reallity it´s no fun to kill people as it seems to be in a movie, as we know that in reallity is no fun to have someone crying and screaming for help in reall distress and agony while being tickled.
Those who are balanced know that.....but what about those who can´t make the difference and are out there?
Now keep in mind that I´m some sort of liberal persson who finds it hard to strike violence on tv and as so I might not be totally against fantasy sharing.....but I do realize the risks envolved and I think everyone should keep them in mind and be alert to any damage´s.
Greetings from Portugal
hope I was not confusing 🙂 lol
it would have been so much easy to discuss in portuguese 🙂
TummyDragon
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Re: thoug question! very one indeed!
Hiya Ninezinho,
I think you did a fine job of discussing this issue in English.
We DO tend to have two or more sides or our personalities. There is the "brighter" everyday self that most people see. There's the "darker" side that we try to conceal (temper tantrums, etc., those things we try not to let others see). And then there is a whole different person inside us where it comes to sexuality (which also has the variations of light and dark). I think for the majority, and I could be wrong here, that the tickling fantasies fall into the category of 'sexuality'. Sexual fantasies are a bit different than normal imagination in that the more we think about them, the more we are, shall we say, "influenced" by them. Once the hormones start flowing, the imagination can really run both wild and into the bizarre. I am amazed at the different "kinks" that get different people's hormones flowing. For most people though, these fantasies tend to be much wilder than we'd ever do in real life. In a tangent of passionate frenzy we may say "I'd tickle you for hours and nothing could make me stop", or from the other side "I want you to tickle me and not stop" (I hear this quite often from my wife when she's in that state of mind). In reality there is no intention of *really* taking it that far from either side. I think the phrase we use to describe that condition is being "caught up in the moment".
As to your second point of extreme fantasies being similar to "violence on TV"… I understand the exact point you were trying to make. And it is a valid one. In the mind of a maniac, an extreme fantasy can turn into an extreme problem. I really don't have a clue as to how to address that issue. There have been some people online who have read a story by a certain author and have been so affected by what they read that they'll send a gazillion emails, IM's, or whatever because they can't get the fantasy out of their heads. This is rare but it does happen and it shows that extreme fantasies can trigger extreme responses.
Maybe some others can pop into the discussion and give some insight as to possibilities as to how this issue can be addressed.
Take care!
TD
nenezinho said:
Hiya Ninezinho,
I think you did a fine job of discussing this issue in English.
We DO tend to have two or more sides or our personalities. There is the "brighter" everyday self that most people see. There's the "darker" side that we try to conceal (temper tantrums, etc., those things we try not to let others see). And then there is a whole different person inside us where it comes to sexuality (which also has the variations of light and dark). I think for the majority, and I could be wrong here, that the tickling fantasies fall into the category of 'sexuality'. Sexual fantasies are a bit different than normal imagination in that the more we think about them, the more we are, shall we say, "influenced" by them. Once the hormones start flowing, the imagination can really run both wild and into the bizarre. I am amazed at the different "kinks" that get different people's hormones flowing. For most people though, these fantasies tend to be much wilder than we'd ever do in real life. In a tangent of passionate frenzy we may say "I'd tickle you for hours and nothing could make me stop", or from the other side "I want you to tickle me and not stop" (I hear this quite often from my wife when she's in that state of mind). In reality there is no intention of *really* taking it that far from either side. I think the phrase we use to describe that condition is being "caught up in the moment".
As to your second point of extreme fantasies being similar to "violence on TV"… I understand the exact point you were trying to make. And it is a valid one. In the mind of a maniac, an extreme fantasy can turn into an extreme problem. I really don't have a clue as to how to address that issue. There have been some people online who have read a story by a certain author and have been so affected by what they read that they'll send a gazillion emails, IM's, or whatever because they can't get the fantasy out of their heads. This is rare but it does happen and it shows that extreme fantasies can trigger extreme responses.
Maybe some others can pop into the discussion and give some insight as to possibilities as to how this issue can be addressed.
Take care!
TD
I agree. If you wrote a fantasy about killing the president you could be prosecuted. What is the difference? I know NC tickling is not killing but some say NC tickling is criminal so there is certainly a correlation between the two on a criminal level wether it be fantasy or reality.
One of the reasons that I brought this up is that in the story section it is prohibited to write about minors(those under the age of 18), because such stories portray violations of a human beings. It is, however OK to write a story about kidnapping, imprisoning, and torturing someone. Isn't this also a violation? Why is one OK and the other not?
TummyDragon
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Iggy pop said:
ahhhhhh, well, there does exist a difference. It's okay to have fantasies about adults and it isn't illegal nor are there any ramifications, even if acting upon those fantasies would be illegal. All kinds of buzarre fetish fantasies available at any bookstore. But, stories that portray fantasies of adults with kids could get the site shut down, membership records subpoenaed, and many investigations could take place. Even if it were later determined that nothing was wrong.
Where minors are involved, there are many actions that can happen from a federal, state, or local level even if one single fantasy story was found. The case my later be dropped, but that does't mean they can't completely dick with you.
It's a self protection policy as well as a moral one.
TD
children
To give you my view Igtop:
When we come to children things change dramatically!
You are right that we are permiting torture stories about adults but not about children and tummydragon added that stories about children would be illegal and could cause many problems to the TMF. If you wnat to discuss further inside this question here are some thoughts.
Did you noticed also that in movies torture is also sometimes portraied but allways being apllied to adults and never to children, again it might be because it would be illegal...but let´s get into the question: why is it legal to show grown ups being tortured or raped and not children?
Now this goes far inside our moral standards has a society and I for myself would have to agree absolutelly that children are almost the last really sacred thing that it´s left in society...in these days almost everything else in being questioned but childreen remain as our future, our happiness and even those who don´t wish to have kids of their own will tend to agree on that.
So I think this is the ultimate base for the difference in treatment concerning children. Even if it was legal I´d be very glad if we all folks of TMF could respect and keep our future sacred and beyhond any possible danger....there are already to much dangers out there, children are inocent and helpless and there´s no need of us to even risk creating one more threat to what we love more.
I´ll finish addind that with 22 years I hope to marry and have kids and as a future father I´m totally in agree as to all the laws there are in your country and in my own to protect our childrens. I said early in this thread that I try to be very open minded but in some issues it´s better for all to know that I can be very straight and conservative whenever I feel it´s the right way. Some things don´t need to be changed, some things are better left unbreakable as they are.
In my view:
No children abuse should become public in all it´s details, either real or fiction. when real it should be dealt with heavy hand but keeping the children out of the media and public atention.
ending here just to keep this from breaking away from the main subject on this thread 🙂
To give you my view Igtop:
When we come to children things change dramatically!
You are right that we are permiting torture stories about adults but not about children and tummydragon added that stories about children would be illegal and could cause many problems to the TMF. If you wnat to discuss further inside this question here are some thoughts.
Did you noticed also that in movies torture is also sometimes portraied but allways being apllied to adults and never to children, again it might be because it would be illegal...but let´s get into the question: why is it legal to show grown ups being tortured or raped and not children?
Now this goes far inside our moral standards has a society and I for myself would have to agree absolutelly that children are almost the last really sacred thing that it´s left in society...in these days almost everything else in being questioned but childreen remain as our future, our happiness and even those who don´t wish to have kids of their own will tend to agree on that.
So I think this is the ultimate base for the difference in treatment concerning children. Even if it was legal I´d be very glad if we all folks of TMF could respect and keep our future sacred and beyhond any possible danger....there are already to much dangers out there, children are inocent and helpless and there´s no need of us to even risk creating one more threat to what we love more.
I´ll finish addind that with 22 years I hope to marry and have kids and as a future father I´m totally in agree as to all the laws there are in your country and in my own to protect our childrens. I said early in this thread that I try to be very open minded but in some issues it´s better for all to know that I can be very straight and conservative whenever I feel it´s the right way. Some things don´t need to be changed, some things are better left unbreakable as they are.
In my view:
No children abuse should become public in all it´s details, either real or fiction. when real it should be dealt with heavy hand but keeping the children out of the media and public atention.
ending here just to keep this from breaking away from the main subject on this thread 🙂
Oddjob0226
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I don't think ANY fantasy (FANTASY) should be forbidden as long as only the people into it are involved. Sex with a make-belive, on paper, 8 year old? Big whoop. People into whatever the fantasy is are already ticking timebombs. Sometimes they go off, sometimes they are duds - but the interest has already come to the surface. There's no turning back now.
BTW - the TMNT had a famous adult-to-kids tickling-as-torture episode. There are others out there, too.
A fictional story about killing a fictional president? It's been done. A specific, serving president? I'll bet somewhere it's been done too. But on the other hand, althought you would be prosecuted (no guarentee of conviction) that's also a special case. Presidents are special people.
BTW - the TMNT had a famous adult-to-kids tickling-as-torture episode. There are others out there, too.
A fictional story about killing a fictional president? It's been done. A specific, serving president? I'll bet somewhere it's been done too. But on the other hand, althought you would be prosecuted (no guarentee of conviction) that's also a special case. Presidents are special people.
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I see it quite simple, so I'll keep this short. In other books, stories, films, whatever...there have been fictional scenes involving torture and other things that would be considered illegal. However, they're fictional. They're there purely to make the story, not to inspire thought of actually commiting such a thing. If everyone in the world worried about that, we wouldn't really get much out of entertainment media's...
You know, certain people see Harry Potter as a bad thing, saying that the books teach children about witch-craft and occult things and make them intrested in these 'evil' ways. Personally, I can't quite see their point, but thats just me. I think that relates to this, in a way.
You know, certain people see Harry Potter as a bad thing, saying that the books teach children about witch-craft and occult things and make them intrested in these 'evil' ways. Personally, I can't quite see their point, but thats just me. I think that relates to this, in a way.
Oddjob0226 said:
How would celeibrity tickling stories fit into that argument?
Is a fictional tickling story about fictional people different to a fictional story about tickling a real person, famous or not?
Also, another thought I just had, assuming writing a fictional celebrity tickling story is ok, what would happen if you sent it to them? Not with any specific threat of carrying it out, but just to let them read it? Would that be a crime?
LEB
Oddjob0226
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LEB said:
Honestly,there is no quick, easy answer; I took a media law class some years ago and there were a lot of issues involving pandering, celebrities, profanity vs. obscenity... and all of this before the Internet was as widespread as now. All the issues seem to overlap into one another and there's no quickie end conclusion.
However, if you're just posting stuff for fantasy of adults interested in a particular thing, unless a webmaster is told to cease and desist - and that can be fought - there really isn't a question of legality as long as the basic, general laws in existance are adhered to (ie: can't make a profit using a celebrity name or endorsement, can't make something obscene available, that kind of thing.) There are plenty of fan sites already with fiction based on Star Trek, the X Files, Buffy, Xena, etc.... and there are some S&M/B&D sites with related stories featuring actors & characters from pop culture. Outside of a celeb or creator stepping in to make it stop (ie, the cease & desist thing), this type of activity isn't being stopped, and these scenarios aren't being acted out on.
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njjen3953
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Iggy pop said:
Iggy,
It is very simple. Anyone can write about anything they want. It is the policy of TMF, however, that there be no POSTING of stories or anything else that is about minors. I believe the reason for this policy is to keep TMF safe from being charged with contributing to pedophilia.
The bottom line is that, although we are all members here and it is an open forum, we are all still guests. Jeff owns the server and therefor owns the forum. He makes the policies and rules and as guests we must abide by them.
