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Wooden Ships and British Naval Battles

Neutron

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BigJim...

You said you were interested in the napolean Era. I have no idea if you play video games, but have you ever heard of Age Of Sail? A recreation of the old sail driven warship battles? I believe Trafalgar is in it.
By the way, I've always admired Nelson, not so much for his Naval Record, more for his willingness to throw out years of naval Experience and doctrine, and break the battleline at Trafalgar and turn it into a melee. Not many Admirals would have done so.
Beatty could have been the next Nelson, but he sacrificed training for expediency. Too bad. I always liked Beatty. Utterly courageous and smart as a whip.


Tron
 
beatty blew it!

he screwed the pooch big time at jutland!
they could have whooped the germans, instead it was the brits that got a boody nose.
big jim, have you heard about napolionic wars reenacting? i have been told it is big in england, and europe.i'd like to do an impression of a british rifle-man, ala sharp. or as a french skirmisher. either would be cool.
steve
 
arenaactor

Having studied Jutland virtually everyday of my adult life I can't agree. Yes Beatty had some shortcomings. But I believe he fought a good battle at Jutland. He screwed up some communications, but virtually every fleet in the world screwed them up at that time. The bottom line is when the time was right Beatty delivered the German Fleet to Jellicoe WITHOUT the Germans knowing Jellicoe was even around. In the process Beatty damaged the German Van to the point where they were not able to adequately scout Jellicoes Van. One cannot ask anymore from a "scouting" Force. Beatty also made a critical decision to turn TOWARDS the German Battlecruisers when a less courageous admiral would have turned away. He did this due to his confidence that the British Sailor was the superior fighting man. Where he fell down was training and the willingness to take short cuts to overcome his lack of training. Again this isn't all his fault, The British Battlecruisers were continuously at sea from Day 1. That means they couldn't train. Since they couldn't train their gunnery was atrocious, therefore they took the easy route and increased volume of fire by storing ready ammunition outside of approved spaces. So yes Beatty was responsible for that. But conditions dictated it. Beatty and Jellicoe (to a great extent) were products of their time. Both had it driven into them that they could lose the war in one afternoon. No other commanders in history were under that sort of pressure. Where Beatty and Jellicoe fall short is their unwillingness to break from tradition in order to win a battle. In their cases a draw was just as good as a win. And at the least they acheived a draw. Lets remember, Even though the Brits lost more Captital Ships their fleet could have fought within a day of Jutland AND their entire fleet was repaired within 2 weeks. The German Fleet took months to repair and never again stood up to face fire from British Battleships, in fact they mutinied when faced with having to do so again.
Beatty was a wonderful tactician, excellent at Strategy, And a great motivator. His downfalls were not paying attention to the finer details (communications and training) which could have made Jutland a decisive victory for the Brits. Beatty blew Dogger Bank, He didn't blow Jutland. In fact he probably did as well as anyone could have done at the time, And considerably better than anyone besides maybe Horace Hood.


Tron
 
i respectfully disagree

first, it seems to me that the german communications was working just fine. so not all navies were as poor as beatty was.
his courage could also be the result of egotism, and his desireo show up jellico.
i kow when i was in the army, we trianed all the time. when my fater was in the navy, he said they trained around the clock. were things so different in the r.n. during ww1??? i dought it. so no excuse for poorly trained men.
th britsh lost several ships that were never recovered,so how could they have been ready for battle in 2 weeks??? unless they were converted to submerines! lol
steve
 
Sorry Man..

You didn't understand my post. Both sides lost several ships. The Germans lost a battlecruiser too. However any ship they lost was worth 5 brit Ships, simply because the brits had more. It took the Germans MONTHS to repair their fleet. Many ships should have been sunk, and had Jellicoe not turned the wrong way the Germans would have lost a lit more. Even the Germans agree on this. It was months before they had enough ships repaired to let the Kaiser know they were again a battleworthy fleet. The Brits reported Battleready the next day. If you want to see what a frightful pounding the Germans took read Jutland: An Analysis Of The Fighting which is basically a 500 page book with an almost shell by shell description. Another good source is Jutland: The German Perspective by Tarrant.

Communications: The Germans had many communications problems. They were masked by the fact that they could always turn around and run home. Which when confronted by the whole British Fleet they did. Their ships were in a tight formation, the battlecruisers very close to the battlefleet. The battlecruisers had the simplest job possible in war, that being lead the British Battlecruisers into a known trap. In cases like these there are little communications required. Remember at this time radio wasn't all that reliable, they did it with flags.
I've been in the Navy. I still work with the Navy. The worst thing to happen trainingwise was to be at sea for long periods. Beatty was at sea constantly because only the battlecruisers had the speed and the might to run down raiders AND only Beattys battlecruisers had the speed and the might to stand up and CATCH and German fleet which came out to play. Jellicoe had to rely on Beatty to damage the german fleet so he could catch it. Beatty did this admirably. In fact he did it so well Jellicoe was able to catch them from over 30 miles away. Beatty was always at sea so his ships never got proper refits, which made his ships at les than design efficiency. He was also attempting to coordinate his actions with a task force he'd never worked with before, that being Sir Evan Thomas Fast 5th Squadron. It was Evan Thomas who missed the first signals which cost Beatty dearly. Hardly Sir Davids fault.
Two: During the initial phases of the battle the Brits had a 6 to 5 advantage. However a signal was missed (remember this is all being done with flags) and a British BC engaged the wrong BC. This left one German BC unengaged which proved fatal to at least two British BC. This is Beattys fault. Again expediency. He should have ensured his fleet knew what to do in this situation. But again without training...
It's hardly Beattys fault British Shells were defective.. With good shells the German fleet would have been totally annihilated.
Remember EVERYONE knew the Germans were going to run if they were confronted by the whole Grand Fleet. Hipper knew Beatty had no choice but to chase him into the trap. Their plan always was to trap a small portion of the Grand Fleet. Annihilate it. then At a later date engage the rest of the Grand Fleet. Beatty had to get Hipper to chase him WITHOUT the Germans realizing Jellicoe was at sea. Beatty did this admirably. In fact his manuever just prior to making contact with Jellicoe is still considered one of the most brilliant in naval History. At considerable risk to himself he cut acros the German Fleet so they couldn't sea Jellicoe deploy. This manuever was so well planned the Germans had no idea Jellicoe was even around until the shells started landing around their ships.15 minutes later the Germans Battle Turned Away. It got dark, The Brits weren't trained to fight at night , Jellicoe made a poor assumption on German intentions. The Battle Ended.
The problem with Jutland was Naval Technology had developed faster than the tactics and communications needed to use it correctly. No one envisioned a battle where the opening range was over 9 miles. Fight Jutland 18 months later and the German Fleet is sunk. The Germans KNEW this.
AS for Beatty being Jealous of Jellicoe. Thats poppycosh. I've read Beattys biographies, and opinions of other admirals. Beatty admired Jellicoe, they were good friends. Beatty never desired Jellicoes job , he was a bit of a swell and liked the image of the dashing Battlecruiser Admiral. Remember at this time british children had trading cards of the big ships and Admirals. And Beatty had the hottest trading card in the country. Also Beatty KNEW he was next in line for Jellicoes job. They weren't rivals. Rival implies competing for the same job. Beatty had already been told he was getting Jellicoes job when Jellicoe stepped down.
Beatty fought hard because that was his nature. Not because he was jealous and wanted to upstage anyone. There was no room for that in the British navy. Especially with items as expensive as a Battleship or Battlecruiser.
Man it's commendable you have an opinion. Most people have never heard of Jutland especially in America. But get some good sources and read about it.

Be safe

Tron
 
Neutron,
Your thread is specifically directed at BigJim. IMO, it deserves more attention due to it's topic. Would you please consider re-naming the subject line? I believe it would be more visible and the title as it stands, may disuade potential readers. 😱

If your intentions were ONLY for BigJim, then it would be more effective to just email him.

Thanks in advance Neutron🙂
 
Ok.

Actually it's for anyone interested. As in all discussion threads the rule of 5 applies. That being within 5 posts the topic changes, by post 10 you won't recognize the original thread.

Mia I'd gladly change the subject line make it clear anyone may participate. But I don't know how. I didn't view it as a one on one thing.

Plus I don't email 🙂


Tron
 
tron did you see...

the series about ww1 on cable t.v. several years ago?
it was on either discovery chanel, or american movie classics.
it covered the whole war, from begining to end. one whole episode was devoted to the battle of jutland. the conclussion was that, allthough jelico was blamed for the british loss (and yes the british have to be viewed as the loosers) it was really beattie's fault.
i'm more of a ww2 fancier. ww1 was a stupid war that didn't need to be fought! the real result of ww1 was communism taking control of russia, and ww2 21 years later.
i'd be happy to carry this discussion on via e-mail, or to have it changed to a new topic name.
stve
 
LOL..

There's your problem. You're learning your history from cable TV and the History (ie we never research our facts) channel.
Try actually reading a primary source, or biographies. Or anything from the Us Naval Institute. By the way. The History Channel is excellent fopr exposing people to history, as is Discovery. But they're very loose with their facts.

No. Jutland was not a British Loss by any means. They still had control of the seas after the battle. They still controlled the area. The Germans were going home with their tails between their legs never to face the fire of the Grand Fleet again.

By the way. WW1 should never have been fought. In fact for the first year of the war the Germans and English never could figure out exactly WHY they were fighting each other.


Tron
 
I don't see even one response from BigJim. How ironic since the thread has his name on it😕 He must other things to do with his time I guess.**sigh**

I'd be happy to change the title for you Neutron. What would you like it be? Just post it and I or one of the other Mods will change it if they happen to spot it first. I'm sure your heading would be a lot better than mine! I honestly have no clue what to call it and am atrocious at History.

BTW, you know you DO email....😉

Just as a side note, I like these kinds of intellectual debates/discussions and I'm sure others will appreciate it also. This is why I want to draw attention to it by calling it something other than "BigJim". Thanks for the cooperation Tron🙂
 
LOL Yes..

At times I do email. But I in this case I happened to be here. I saw Jims interest so I did the expedient thing.

I actually did want Jims interest. (and I don't have his email addy).

I had no idea it'd turn into an actual historical discussion.

Could you please rename it Wooden Ships and British Naval Battles?

I appreciate it. And thank you for pointing it out. I have no problem with the subject being changed. You have my persimision to do so.

Thank you 🙂

Tron
 
Magic...thread is retitled

My Good Mod deed for the day...
smileywizard.gif


Q
 
Most interesting.

"By the way. The History Channel is excellent fopr exposing people to history, as is Discovery."

It seems rather odd to compare Neutrons carefully studied thoughts against his rather dismissive and ignorant statements regarding American history in the late 19th century, specifically the plight of the Native American. Perhaps you are one of the people who needs "exposing to history"?
 
....Aaaaaaanyway, thanks Q for taking care of the thread title for me.

So far everyone is playing nice (I think)...I can only hope that this interesting discussion doesn't turn ugly.......🙁
 
LOL WHAT>?

Red Indian,

I AM an American Indian. I'm half Shawnee. I also lived two years on the Oglala Reservation near Pine Ridge. I wrote most my college and highschool papers on American Indians and USED authentic sources, ie interviews with the tribes. Now how exactly am I ignorant?

Tron
 
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