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Britain's National Health Service: Cack or Cool?

BigJim

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As most of you must know, various right of centre Republicans have been castigating our NHS as a prime example of why they don't want change in American healthcare provision. Aside from the fact that not even Obama and Clinton are suggesting something to the degree of our NHS, I found this article on Yahoo News today...

The hatred the American right has shown the NHS in recent days is just one more reason why I'll never understand our cousins across the Atlantic.

By Ian Dunt

I took an American cousin of mine to Paris once and as we walked around I asked if she thought Britain, where she'd stayed for most of her trip, was more like America or France. 'France,' she replied instantly. It was a far cry from when I had travelled around Latin America, and had French students tell me how they found Brits and Americans interchangeable.

It's one of the effects of Britain's weird, charming relationship with the world. We're a third European, a third American and third something else - something unique to ourselves. But every so often you take a look at what one of your American or French cousins are doing and think: what the hell?

If you've been paying any attention to the debate on President Obama's healthcare reform on the other side of the Atlantic, you'll know what I mean. Personally, it only came across my radar once American right wingers started mocking the NHS.

The charismatic, but extraordinarily foolish Tory MEP Daniel Hannan has been on US television saying he wouldn't "wish the NHS on anyone". Presumably that doesn't include sick, poor people. Or even sick people with some money stashed away. Adverts have been prominently shown making the NHS out to be some sort of death factory, casually condemning people if they fail to meet certain age criteria. Sarah Palin, whose idiocy is so vast she needs no introduction, has branded the NHS "evil". And town hall meeting after town hall meeting - all free to watch on the internet - have seen irate American right-wingers harangue speakers as they describe any move (and Obama's moves are very tentative) to universal healthcare as a Communist coup against the republic.

Watching these debates is like reading National Geographic. It's just impossible, from a European perspective, to understand what these people are on about. Their political views seem as backwards and removed from the world we live in as a shaman casting magic spells.

The angry opponents of Obama's reforms would do well to actually have a debate, rather than spew out foolish lies. The death panel accusation is not politics. It is just a lie. That's all it is. It has no place in political discourse. It's not even worthy of childhood discourse. It should be considered outside of acceptable debate, like racism or physical violence. That right-wing pundits and insurance companies are free to promote this nonsense is a damning indictment on the entire system. Personally, I'd be fairly indifferent, and wouldn't deign to comment on another country's way of doing things, were it not for the fact that they're now telling lies about the NHS, and that is intolerable.

Upsettingly, I have some sympathy for the philosophical origin of many of the argument used by Obama's opponents, in that they originate from a suspicion of government. Government and the state (which are not as distinct in reality as academics will tell you) are together the most dangerous organisation in the world. The American mentality lies in a never-ending attempt to limit government to the smallest possible size. Quite right too. Unfortunately, I'm equally suspicious of the private sector, which, by definition, does not allow for democratic control of power. It's my suspicion of the state and the private sector which ensures, by the way, that I have no political allegiances whatsoever.

But the philosophical argument for limiting government is based on freedom - freedom from state intrusion into our lives. To apply this to universal healthcare is very sloppy thinking.

Freedom applies to all, not just the rich. The freedom of a rich man to pay less tax does not overrule the freedom of the poor to live. This is such an obvious point that no civilised human being should ever need to have it explained to them. It appears they do.

Besides, basic human decency makes a debate over 'socialised healthcare', as the American right calls it, utterly irrelevant. If healthcare isn't a right - rather than a privilege - then I don't know what is. Healthcare isn't a Turkish delight chocolate bar, or a Jacuzzi. Healthcare is life.

Britons are a grumpy and irritable lot. I'm just the same. Whenever I sit in a dinner in America, I end up visibly shuddering in the wake of the meaningless, friendly noises churning endlessly from the person serving me. But we should occasionally take a little look around and realise the things that are great about our country. The NHS is one of those things. It is the cornerstone of Britain. It is the beating, human heart of this country.

The American right is correct. It is socialist. Nothing could be more socialist. It suits Marx's moral maxim perfectly: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. In this case, the ability is the ability to pay, and the need is the need of care. It is not, in actual fact, the state or the government which is responsible for the NHS. It is us. We pay for it. We use it. The state is merely a prism through which the money and the care must pass. The NHS is us taking care of each other.

We live in a mixed economy. We aim to have enough free market to control the state, and provide the things we want. But we also need enough socialism to ensure we do not live like savages, the weakest amongst us starving to death on the street while a rich woman buys a Gucci handbag. Socialism without capitalism turns to tyranny. Capitalism without socialism turns to barbarism.

The sooner Americans realise the truth of a mixed economy, the better their world will become. In the meantime, their right-wing pundits should learn from the NHS, not mock it.


The way I see it, Americans are paying treble in health insurance than we are in tax, when it comes to healthcare. We pay three per cent more tax than you do, set against the fact that health insurance companies are charging genough to buy a small island for a policy that doesn't even cover everything, leaving you forced to pay for a lot of things covered by the NHS here.

Now here's the thing: if I were American, I wouldn't think a system similar to ours or France's would be the best stop for you, I would prefer some sort of mid-ground solution where the government simply made it easier (perhaps compulsory) for people to have insurance that was provided on a scale that isn't a con and a rip-off. That way you could have healthcare that is cheaper by far (and your healthcare costs you more than any other country in the world's does) without falling into the danger area of trusting politicians to run the actual system of it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no-one in the Democratic Party is suggesting anything more than that, are they?

This being the case, why does it take only the merest mention of making healthcare more easy to obtain to the seventy million Americans without it (about fifty million with no coverage at all and over twenty with inadequate coverage) for the right to start screaming about "socialism" and "communism" and generally inducing hysteria by accusing the centre of thinking things they're not even half way to imagining?

I genuinely do not understand why Americans would not want better coverage for all citizens (read: voters) combined with a saving of money, not to mention why some gullible people seem to fall so easilly for the hysteria-inducing tactics of people with a very obvious vested interest of maintaining the most ursurious situation since King John.
 
Anyone who opposes some kind of health provision for everyone is either stupid or evil. It's no wonder that people have been rallying round the NHS in recent days, it's a great institution.
 
Anyone who opposes some kind of health provision for everyone is either stupid or evil. It's no wonder that people have been rallying round the NHS in recent days, it's a great institution.

No. we that oppose are the ones that do not want socialism and to have our freedoms taken away. you want socialism and controlling government, then go to another country and enjoy. :ty:
 
Freedom applies to all, not just the rich. The freedom of a rich man to pay less tax does not overrule the freedom of the poor to live. This is such an obvious point that no civilised human being should ever need to have it explained to them. It appears they do.

The thing is though, in the US they speak of liberties, but in Europe we also speak of SOCIAL liberties. I.e. not only are everyone entitled to, say, freedom of speech, voting, etc, but everyone is also entitled to what I suppose you could call a decent life. For that you kinda need healthcare readily available to everyone who needs it, don't you? In Scandinavia we have taken it a bit farther than Britain insofar that healthcare is not the only thing regulated by the government, but even critics of socialism have been forced to admit that the Scandinavian Model actually works.

Ah well, as for the whole idea of "death panels" and all the angry people at the town hall meetings just yelling... I blame Fox News, as always they are just trying to scare people.

It's the US though... I don't intend to ever move there, so while I think it's kinda tragic that the greatest country in the world can't have honest and objective media coverage I tend to just shrug that off since this is such a goldmine for laughs! XD (They mostly ripp on Obama between 1:25-4:40 in the second clip below, for those of you whose sense of humour only goes as far as your political ideology. I can relate, but trust me when I say it's the part after that that's REALLY funny! :D)

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-13-2009/glenn-beck-s-operation'>Glenn Beck's Operation</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:240989' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-28-2009/spinal-tap-extended-performance'>Spinal Tap Performance</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-12-2009/pr'>PR</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:240956' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-july-28-2009/spinal-tap-extended-performance'>Spinal Tap Performance</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
 
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I really rather have all those English Dommes out here. :D :p Maybe not as good for my health but certainly a lot more fun. :D :p
 
BigJim said:
Now here's the thing: if I were American, I wouldn't think a system similar to ours or France's would be the best stop for you, I would prefer some sort of mid-ground solution where the government simply made it easier (perhaps compulsory) for people to have insurance that was provided on a scale that isn't a con and a rip-off. That way you could have healthcare that is cheaper by far (and your healthcare costs you more than any other country in the world's does) without falling into the danger area of trusting politicians to run the actual system of it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no-one in the Democratic Party is suggesting anything more than that, are they?

More or less. The problem is, while the House bill may pay lip service to the principle of cutting costs, it does nothing to discourage them. There are two main reasons American health care costs so much. The first is the tax credit for employer provided coverage, and the second is that doctors work on a fee for service basis, which encourages them to load up on as many expensive treatments as possible. The bill that's been produced by the House doesn't address either of those problems, and also adds new expenses in the form of subsidies.

Honestly, I voted for Obama, but there's a lot of problems with how he's handled himself during all of this. Clinton tried to ram health reform through Congress in a high handed manner, and the institution revolted. Obama's gone to the complete opposite direction and subcontracted virtually all writing of important legislation to Congress while trying to float above the fray. Unfortunately, this led to the House producing an extremely lousy bill which (with no exaggeration) basically pays for itself by soaking the rich. Many moderate Democrats will never vote for such a bill, let alone the GOP. The bill also focuses almost entirely on coverage and makes no real effort to address costs, and virtually every wonk agrees that runaway costs are the biggest problem the American health care system faces.

Obama's got to lead on this, but unfortunately he's so far been fond of talking about sacrifice while not actually asking for any. Whether anybody likes it or not, getting health care costs under control is not going to be fun. It's going to require phasing out the employer tax credit, which is going to annoy a lot of people (not least unions who get gold plated insurance packages). It's going to require at least some form of managed care to contain the costs generated by the all you can eat system we currently have in place. Neither of those things will be politically popular, and it's going to take a lot of capital to sell them to the general public. If Obama wants to do that, he's got to come down off his cloud and start leading. If he doesn't do that, he'll go down, at best, as another Clinton who botched his real chance to reform and then went on to competently manage the status quo while tinkering around the edges (and Clinton lucked into the biggest bull market in history, I doubt Obama's going to be that lucky). At worst, it'll lay the groundwork for a failed presidency.

And honestly, while much of the stuff said on right wing talk radio about this whole thing is absurd, there are lots of people with legitimate concerns about the lack of detail surrounding the plan, how it's going to be paid for, etc. It's not helpful to just dismiss them all as rent-a-mobs duped into hysteria by the insurance industry. If Obama wants their support, he has to address their concerns, and he hasn't done that yet.
 
And yet... it might not be too far off to assume that maybe... the Democrats don't want real health reform to pass.

With the amount of money that pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies spend on lobbying in this country, it's pretty clear who really pulls the strings.

What's likely to actually pass is a watered down bill that accomplishes virtually nothing. About the only thing that might actually get through is tort reform, since both sides seem to agree on that.

Beyond that, profit will remain king in the healthcare market just the same as it does in every other market.

It's not profitable to keep people healthy -- it's much more profitable to make them dependent on medications and advanced treatments.
 
I was wondering when someone would bring this up!

The NHS certainly has problems, mainly to do with internal mismanagement, but having a nationalised healthcare system is a necessity for a modern nation.

I'm Canadian, so grew up with free-at-source healthcare, and most of the countries I've lived in for an extended period of time (Canada, Scotland, England, France, The Netherlands) has something similar. I also lived in the US for a while, and in my opinion it's on par with many of the developing nations I've spent time in, as far as healthcare and human rights go. Worse, in many cases. I'd prefer to get sick sans insurance in Laos than I would in the US.

Considering the overwhelming poverty which I've seen firsthand in the US and the struggle people go through to access a basic human right like healthcare, it's about time someone placed priority on the shambolic and frankly shameful practice of forcing people to pay for healthcare and to justify their need for healthcare to profit-making institutions.
 
Considering the overwhelming poverty which I've seen firsthand in the US and the struggle people go through to access a basic human right like healthcare, it's about time someone placed priority on the shambolic and frankly shameful practice of forcing people to pay for healthcare and to justify their need for healthcare to profit-making institutions.

This is the problem though; you tell Americans that there are people in their own country who live in poverty, and they'll either deny it, or say something like "oh yeah, the homeless guys; I feel bad for them". Poverty doesn't necessarily mean homelessness or destitution; it can be as simple as not having enough money to get by week-to-week AND pay for your own treatment if you get flu. Or mono. Or cancer. If you have to choose between paying for rent and food or paying for a reasonable level of healthcare, that's poverty. People just refuse to believe that this could happen in the land of sequins, beauty pageants and "freedom".

The best chime I've heard in this whole debate came from a correspondent on Radio 4 the other day. One of the main reasons the American right gives for railing against public healthcare is the misconception that under a privately funded healthcare programme there is no rationing. The decision for what treatment you need rests squarely in the hands of the doctors, and there's no rationing system in place when it comes to the cost of the treatment. Therefore, if you're bed-bound with 3 months to live, a drug comes on the market that costs $100,000 and will extend your bed-bound life by three months, the doctors will make the decision that you'll receive the drug and your insurance will cover it. One of the charges levelled at the NHS is that there IS a rationing system, and the level of rationing is decided by a government bureaucrat rather than a doctor. Therefore, if you're in the above position, the doctor can suggest a treatment but the government can refuse to pay for it.

The correspondent's answer was that, in any healthcare system, there is a rationing system; it's just that in the case of the NHS the bureaucrat works for the government and is directly accountable to the local health authority, whereas in the case of a private system the bureaucrat who sets the limits works for a for-profit corporation and is accountable to it's shareholders.
 
This is the problem though; you tell Americans that there are people in their own country who live in poverty, and they'll either deny it, or say something like "oh yeah, the homeless guys; I feel bad for them". Poverty doesn't necessarily mean homelessness or destitution; it can be as simple as not having enough money to get by week-to-week AND pay for your own treatment if you get flu. Or mono. Or cancer. If you have to choose between paying for rent and food or paying for a reasonable level of healthcare, that's poverty. People just refuse to believe that this could happen in the land of sequins, beauty pageants and "freedom".

The best chime I've heard in this whole debate came from a correspondent on Radio 4 the other day. One of the main reasons the American right gives for railing against public healthcare is the misconception that under a privately funded healthcare programme there is no rationing. The decision for what treatment you need rests squarely in the hands of the doctors, and there's no rationing system in place when it comes to the cost of the treatment. Therefore, if you're bed-bound with 3 months to live, a drug comes on the market that costs $100,000 and will extend your bed-bound life by three months, the doctors will make the decision that you'll receive the drug and your insurance will cover it. One of the charges levelled at the NHS is that there IS a rationing system, and the level of rationing is decided by a government bureaucrat rather than a doctor. Therefore, if you're in the above position, the doctor can suggest a treatment but the government can refuse to pay for it.

The correspondent's answer was that, in any healthcare system, there is a rationing system; it's just that in the case of the NHS the bureaucrat works for the government and is directly accountable to the local health authority, whereas in the case of a private system the bureaucrat who sets the limits works for a for-profit corporation and is accountable to it's shareholders.

We may disagree in the "******" thread, but I totally agree here with you.
 
Aye, but we should be careful not to make sweeping statements about individuals in the US when we're talking about a government policy. There are obviously plenty of people who are well informed about their own country; having said that, people I know in the US rely on foreign press for news about their own country. Surely US governments of the past have an interest in the clear lack of quality, accessible domestic media.

I've frequently heard people who work for the NHS express serious displeasure, similar to the soundbite Tory in Brussels. But I've never heard anyone entertain the notion that we'd be better off with no healthcare at all.

The Canadian and Cuban systems are very different to the NHS; I doubt that there's a perfect universal model. Adopting an existing system might not be the best thing for the US.
 
My two cents. For those wanting to know more about my thoughts on the matter goto P and R.

The founding fathers here viewed Goverment as a necessary evil. The keyword there being evil. Supporters of a National Health Care System tend to view goverment as good friendly beneficial thing. Those opposed tend to share the view of the founding fathers that goverment is more of a bad thing or at the very least a highly incompetent inefficient thing. I fall into the latter camp and personally and trying to keep goverment as far from my prostate as possible. :p
 
Supporters of a National Health Care System tend to view goverment as good friendly beneficial thing. Those opposed tend to share the view of the founding fathers that goverment is more of a bad thing or at the very least a highly incompetent inefficient thing.

I don't believe that's necessarily the case. One can view even a sensible health reform bill is an undesirable expansion of federal power while still believing the current status quo is untenable.
 
Some more data that sheds light on why the entire cause of health care reform is having difficulty gaining support:



This corresponds to what I was saying above about the biggest problem in the American health care system being out of control cost inflation. That's the underlying disease and the high number of uninsured is just a symptom of that. Until a reform bill focuses on that, plenty of well informed individuals who understand that the status quo sucks are going to have trouble getting behind it (especially given that polls indicate centrist voters are increasingly worried about the lack of attention to the deficit and will be wary about anything that's not budget neutral).
 
I don't believe that's necessarily the case. One can view even a sensible health reform bill is an undesirable expansion of federal power while still believing the current status quo is untenable.

Perhaps You do raise a good point in that it depends on the nature of the reform. if its a large overhaul of the system that turns Health Care into a very Goverment centrized thing then I think I would be correct in my assumptions. I think this is what most people are afraid of. I know I am LOL. If though the reforms are more moderate and work within the framework of private insurance then you could be right. It depends I guess ultimately what we get from Washington which right now I have no idea.
 
Some more data that sheds light on why the entire cause of health care reform is having difficulty gaining support:



This corresponds to what I was saying above about the biggest problem in the American health care system being out of control cost inflation. That's the underlying disease and the high number of uninsured is just a symptom of that. Until a reform bill focuses on that, plenty of well informed individuals who understand that the status quo sucks are going to have trouble getting behind it (especially given that polls indicate centrist voters are increasingly worried about the lack of attention to the deficit and will be wary about anything that's not budget neutral).

Good points, but I see the biggest problem as being that a lot of Americans are just too fucking stubborn and too fucking stupid to understand you have to pay more in taxes to have a feasible socialized system.

Europe does pay higher taxes than America when looking at sales taxes in combination with income taxes, but most of this money is used for their healthcare. Some Americans seem to want European benefits without European taxes, but obviously, that's not possible.

In short, we have a lot of greedy and shortsighted people who don't know how to budget (both in government and among the public).
 
I see the problem as too many politicians who are to !@#$$#@ stupid to realize people are tired of being taxed.
 
I see the problem as too many politicians who are to !@#$$#@ stupid to realize people are tired of being taxed.

I'd say they already realize that. That's why they almost never raise taxes. They'll raise spending, but taxes won't usually match that, because they know the easiest way to stay in office is to increase benefits without increasing taxes.

Basically, our politicians are stupid for not looking at the long run and only caring about whether or not they get re-elected.

Our public is too stupid to understand that if you demand more from government, you HAVE to pay more.
 
I'd say they already realize that. That's why they almost never raise taxes. They'll raise spending, but taxes won't usually match that, because they know the easiest way to stay in office is to increase benefits without increasing taxes.

Basically, our politicians are stupid for not looking at the long run and only caring about whether or not they get re-elected.

Our public is too stupid to understand that if you demand more from government, you HAVE to pay more.

I can agree with that. As an old russian friend of mine use to say. Stupidity knows no boundaries. ;) :p
 
I'd say they already realize that. That's why they almost never raise taxes. They'll raise spending, but taxes won't usually match that, because they know the easiest way to stay in office is to increase benefits without increasing taxes.

Basically, our politicians are stupid for not looking at the long run and only caring about whether or not they get re-elected.

Our public is too stupid to understand that if you demand more from government, you HAVE to pay more.
That is why I don't demand more from the govt. I do feel they should be held accountable for the spending of our taxes they do take in

Not holding my breath
 
MrMacphisto said:
Good points, but I see the biggest problem as being that a lot of Americans are just too fucking stubborn and too fucking stupid to understand you have to pay more in taxes to have a feasible socialized system.

To some extent yes, but huge savings could be found within the current system simply by scrapping the tax credit for employer provided health insurance. Like I keep saying, that subsidy is possibly the single biggest distortion in the current system, and phasing it out entirely would free up $250b a year. It's a stretch to say that would pay for reform in and of itself, but it could finance a good 60-70% of it.
 
To some extent yes, but huge savings could be found within the current system simply by scrapping the tax credit for employer provided health insurance. Like I keep saying, that subsidy is possibly the single biggest distortion in the current system, and phasing it out entirely would free up $250b a year. It's a stretch to say that would pay for reform in and of itself, but it could finance a good 60-70% of it.

Very true.
 
No. we that oppose are the ones that do not want socialism and to have our freedoms taken away. you want socialism and controlling government, then go to another country and enjoy. :ty:

MT, you are, and have always been, totally cracked about anything not remotely rightist. I honestly don't get it.

Providing cover (notice I don't say "providing a health service" - I think a full-blown NHS wouldn't work in America and could not even be conceptualised for some decades at least) for the seventy million people who either get very poor or get dead if they get sick, is not socialism. It's humane. It's giving a shit. It's a fundemental human right in a First World country.

Nor would such a system take away any of your freedoms or your choice in how you got your own healthcare provided, nor would it require a government that was overly controlling.

Why would you think such a thing was necessary? I'm not talking about any one plan or model that Obama/Clinton is/is not thinking of dreaming up, I'm talking about the general principle.
 
The thing is though, in the US they speak of liberties, but in Europe we also speak of SOCIAL liberties. I.e. not only are everyone entitled to, say, freedom of speech, voting, etc, but everyone is also entitled to what I suppose you could call a decent life. For that you kinda need healthcare readily available to everyone who needs it, don't you? In Scandinavia we have taken it a bit farther than Britain insofar that healthcare is not the only thing regulated by the government, but even critics of socialism have been forced to admit that the Scandinavian Model actually works.

Got to admit, I don't know anything about your healthcare system, but I've never seen it near the bottom of any league tables.

Ah well, as for the whole idea of "death panels" and all the angry people at the town hall meetings just yelling... I blame Fox News, as always they are just trying to scare people.

And they suceed, with depressing regularity. Mainly on account of the many dumbasses out there who turn green and rip their short off as soon as someone says the word "socialism" or uses pseudo-Biblical language to condemn something. Takes a lot less effort than actually thinking I suppose.

It's the US though... I don't intend to ever move there, so while I think it's kinda tragic that the greatest country in the world can't have honest and objective media coverage I tend to just shrug that off since this is such a goldmine for laughs! XD (They mostly ripp on Obama between 1:25-4:40 in the second clip below, for those of you whose sense of humour only goes as far as your political ideology. I can relate, but trust me when I say it's the part after that that's REALLY funny! :D)

Only funny if you're detached though, I guess. In britain we're kinda close to America as buddies, yanno? We think of them as a sort of overgrown offspring and a protective ally, and they think of us as a sort of ... warehouse.
 
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