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Do you Believe in Supernatural Phenomena?

Do you Believe in Supernatural Phenomena?

  • No

    Votes: 15 35.7%
  • Yes

    Votes: 27 64.3%

  • Total voters
    42

Garr1

TMF Poster
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
82
Points
0
Do you believe in supernatural phenomena? Because in reality these phenomena do not actually exist, according to the discoveries of the Laws of Evolution, Astrophysics, Relativity, Quantum Physics, and Atomic Science, matter is the source of all energy and thus all of the phenomena in the universe.

"The universe is governed by the uncaring laws of matter which don't give a damn about us and will not make miracles happen on our behalf." –Thomas Alva Edison

"The belief in the Word of God is a sign of human weakness." –Albert Einstein

Below is a list of the forms of energy and the matter interactions that give rise to them:

Mechanical - movement of solid objects.

Fluidic - movement of liquids, gases and plasma.

Gravitational - attraction between two masses caused by the gravitational fields intrinsic to all elementary particles.

Thermal - randomized movement of molecules, atoms, and subatomic particles in a mass.

Chemical - covalent bonds of atoms in molecules.

Magnetic - attraction between two magnetic fields caused by the electromagnetic fields intrinsic to charged elementary particles.

Electrostatic - attraction between two electric fields caused by the electromagnetic fields intrinsic to charged elementary particles.

Electrical - movement of electrons.

Radiant - photons emitted at various rates which gives rise to the electromagnetic spectrum.

Nuclear - nuclear bonds of subatomic particles.

Antimaterial - repulsion of oppositely charged subatomic particles.

Dark - intrinsic repulsion forces of accelerons.

I. Refutation of creation and revelation:

According to a principle discovered by Stephen Hawking, the universe actually has no beginning and no end though the Big Bang is a major event in the universe. This principle is known as the multi-verse principle where several universes experience endless cycles of death and rebirth. In this principle, the matter and energy in the whole multi-verse is infinite though the matter and energy in each universe is finite. When the universe is born from a collection of compressed matter with zero distance between the subatomic particles called a singularity, a Big Bang occurs and the particles separate and fly out from the point of origin.

These particles then each have their own unique properties and give rise to plenty of different phenomena, (e.g. electrons and protons give off electromagnetic fields, the intermittent emission of photons by energized atoms are the source of fluctuating radiation, the motion and collision of a body of atoms and/or molecules gives off heat). The inertia of the moving particles then expands the boundaries of the universe.

The amount of matter initially collected in the singularity sets the net gravitational force that will be acquired by the universe. The net gravitational force sets the critical density which is the average minimum amount of mass that needs to be confined to a specific volume so that the gravitational forces will cause the particles to collide back into a singularity. When the particles expand, entropy determines the random interaction of the masses which will regulate the unification or separation of particles, if by chance the moving particles are able to move far enough from each other, the universe will lack the density for its net gravitational forces to re-integrate the particles and the universe will expand forever under the force of inertia. Our universe has reached the point where the average density is lower than the critical unification density and therefore the universe will expand forever or until the particles are absorbed by the gravity of another universe.

When the universe contracts into a singularity, it is called the Big Crunch and when the universe keeps on expanding, it is called the Big Freeze. When the universe reaches a state where entropy causes the matter-energy exchange cycles to maintain a constant average density equal to the critical density of the universe, the universe will maintain a definite size and is called a Steady State Universe.

The Big Rip is a more extreme form of expansion than the Big Freeze where the separation of the particles is accelerated by accelerons that posses an intrinsic repulsive force known as dark energy. The particles themselves are indivisible and cannot be split but they cannot combine with one another or any other particle due to their repulsive force. If a singularity generates enough particles of this form, the universe will expand at a more rapid pace and cause matter to disintegrate into radiation and elementary particles more quickly than with a Big Freeze.

The Big Bounce principle is what governs the death and rebirth of universes. It states that when the particles of a universe collide to form a singularity, the collision causes the particles to absorb each others energy and release the excess energy absorbed as photon particles. This phenomenon is called Hawking Radiation and is what causes black holes to evaporate. The spinning of the black hole is caused by the collision of particles that gather together to form it and this law also applies to the formation of planets and suns where the incoming masses do not exert compression forces in all directions equally due to entropy and the stronger incoming forces set the axis of rotation for the forming mass. The force imparted by this rotation coupled with the radiation released by the thermal activity of the particles causes the particles to gradually be discharged from the black hole. The particles that are emitted first are coming from the equator of the black hole where the tangential force is strongest. When the particles from this region receive a sufficient level of energy, their movement coupled with the rotational tangential force of the black hole will force the excited particles away from the black hole. This means that eventually the gravity of the black hole will weaken to the point that the particles can no longer be held together inside it and the heat energy of the particles will cause them to counteract the weakened gravity and separate from the singularity. This principle also applies to the universal singularity so that eventually the singularity will evaporate and another Big Bang will occur.

Each universe in the multi-verse can have its own laws of physics because each universe may carry elementary particles that are different from the elementary particles in this universe and because matter is being exchanged between the different universes, the amount of new elementary particles introduced into this universe will determine the types of new phenomena that will occur. If the particles introduced are in small number or sufficiently scattered through space, then they will only introduce micro-scale quantum phenomena that are difficult to detect and are of little impact. If a large number of new particles that are of sufficient concentration are introduced into this universe, then macro-scale observable phenomena and astrophysical scale phenomena can occur. Thus all the matter and energy in the multi-verse does not disappear or reappear it merely changes from one form to another in an endless cycle.

The summary of the possible ends of the universe are as follows:

1.) Big Crunch - if average density > critical density all particles will converge into a singularity.

2.) Big Freeze - if average density < critical density all particles will keep moving farther away from the point of origin under the influence of inertia.

3.) Big Rip - if average density < critical density and enough accelerons are produced from the Big Bang, all particles will keep moving farther away from the point of origin under the influence of inertia and dark energy but at a greatly accelerated pace.

4.) Steady State - if average density = critical density and entropy maintains the matter interactions to maintain this stability, the universe will maintain a permanent, finite volume.

The two general inter-universal interactions are as follows:

1.) Big Bounce - death and rebirth of the universe.

2.) Absorption - occurs when the gravitational field of another universe comes in contact with incoming particles from a certain universe, draws it in and increases its own mass.

Conclusion:

The instant of creation did not occur because the elementary particles have been proven to have no beginning or end as they are indivisible packets of spherical force fields that cannot be subdivided into more fundamental components. According to the laws of matter, matter does not disappear or reappear but merely changes form. Therefore there is no instant of creation or an end to the multi-verse, making the multi-verse a completely cyclic entity. There will be no revelation or end to the multi-verse either because of the indivisibility of the elementary particles.

The multi-verse's existence has not yet been confirmed but it provides a theoretical framework for the inter-universal exchange of mass and energy and thus the cyclic nature of universes. It accounts for what will happen to matter should a Big Freeze or Rip occur instead of matter just moving into infinity. This type of framework supports the belief in a completely logical and materialistic universe with nothing supernatural or spiritual and no beginning, end or special purpose. In fact a cyclic system such as this exists only for the sake of existing and everything that exists is merely the statistical by-product of random material processes.

II. Refutation of the creation of life by divinity:

Evolution is the process by which the DNA of a life form mutates or the life form temporarily changes the way its body operates so that the life form can change its physical attributes and better adapt to its environment. One form of evolution is called the short term adaptive mechanism. This mechanism can change rapidly so that the organism can immediately adapt to its new environment if it chooses to leave the old one. An example of this is the adaptive camouflage possessed by some animals that can change the color of their skin, feathers, hair, fur and other outer coverings to blend in to their environment. The short term adaptive mechanism does not involve changes in DNA, merely an involuntary change in the way the organism's cells operate and this change is caused by information about the environment involuntarily delivered to the organism by the senses of that organism or any other means of detecting information. The other form of adaptive mechanism is called the long term adaptive mechanism and this mechanism does not immediately alter the physical attributes of the organism but rather only makes slight changes to its DNA and this new DNA is then passed on to the offspring of the new organism and that organism will also experience slight changes in its DNA before it passes the DNA to its own offspring. After passing on the DNA for several generations, the DNA will be so distorted that the latest generation of offspring will already be a new species. The short term adaptive mechanism only brings temporary changes in the way the organism's body operates but the long term adaptive mechanism completely changes the physical structure of the organism. The reason why the long term adaptive mutations in DNA take so long to effect their changes in the life form is because rapid changes cannot be made without disrupting the life support systems of the organism. A sudden disruption may even kill the life form in the process. That is why exposure to mutagens like viruses, chemicals, and radiation which cause randomized mutations can be hazardous to an organism. Another reason for the slow changes in physical structure is because the surrounding environment of the living thing does not change suddenly and furthermore, evolution is governed by the cells which collect information from the various senses or other detection methods of the organism and then involuntarily processes the information before sending signals to the DNA telling it to change itself to adapt to changes in the environment. Life itself is a product of both bio-genesis and abiogenesis. Bio-genesis refers to the voluntary actions taken by life forms to multiply while abiogenesis is the randomized chemical reaction between organic elements like carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, sulfur, oxygen and phosphorous which causes the formation of organic life forms complete with feedback sensors, an organic processing unit which autonomously controls the organism by processing input data from the senses, nutrient gathering mechanisms, cell division/regenerative mechanisms and reproductive mechanisms. Certain life forms like viruses are not capable of the autonomous multiplication that cells can do and require a host to accept their DNA for multiplication. This process is similar to sexual animals that require DNA to be inputted from a sexual partner before they can generate offspring. Because the processes of life are so well understood by scientists, scientists are even capable of artificially producing life forms by simulating the chemical reactions needed to produce life in order to create artificially occurring life forms. The physical attributes of these life forms may be altered by culturing them in controlled environments. This technique is used in the creation of biological medicines and biological weapons. In conclusion, the genesis and evolution of life is a completely material process that can occur with or without external control.

Conclusion:

Life forms are governed by completely physical processes and are the product of physical processes and not the will of a divinity.

III. Refutation of the existence of a soul as the determinant of individuality:

Free Will – is defined as the autonomous generation of thought processes and emotions which are regulated by the control instructions of the personality.

Personality – is defined as the operating system comprised of control instructions that govern behavior which are saved in the brain and are the product of genetic factors as well as external environmental stimuli. Compared to artificially simulated operating systems, the personality has several times more instructions and has a significantly more complex operation giving it greater flexibility which is necessary to perform the innumerable voluntary functions of the mind and body for survival, purpose and urge driven activities. It is possible to alter the personality by manually changing the surrounding environment or autonomously creating new control instructions and putting them in practice to eventually add or overwrite the existing ones.

The existence of unique personality traits is a product of both genetics and the environment. The genetic factor that leads to the generation of unique personality traits is the same as the one for the generation of unique physical traits. It is the imperfect replication of DNA because of a phenomenon known as entropy. Entropy states that particles in nature behave in a semi-chaotic manner meaning that not all duplicate processes can occur in precise, mathematically identical ways. There will be a certain error tolerance that will cause inexactness. Examples of this include the error tolerance of +/-5% in the resistance of electrical components because of the present day impossibility of manufacturing completely identical parts due to the minute disturbances to the production process caused by randomized external phenomena such as weather and earthquake tremors and the inexactness of the behavior of hurricanes such as varying speeds and sizes.

The same phenomenon occurs when genes are being duplicated. The percentage of acquired genes from both the recessive and dominant partner in a couple may vary though the dominant genes have a higher chance of being duplicated while the recessive genes have a lower probability for duplication. There is a gene reproduction error tolerance which causes minute differences in the genetic code. The alteration of the code will mean that the code of the offspring is not exactly the same as that of the parents hence the difference in detailed identifier features such as the fingerprints and the personality. The error tolerance for gene reproduction may be caused by disturbance inputs from physical phenomena such as the minute random molecule movement of the amniotic fluid due to thermal activity or other bodily reactions caused by eating, exercising or other activities.

The environmental factors that give rise to the development of unique personality traits are the randomness of the sequence and type of experiences that influence the person’s thinking. The person has no control over the phenomenon that takes place in their external environment and therefore the events that occur in that external environment will cause alterations in the person’s mentality. The order and types of experiences that people encounter cannot be exactly the same for two different people because of the entropy that governs the occurrence of events.

Conclusion:

The uniqueness and variation in human personality traits is the by-product of random statistical processes that is completely dominated by the entropy of the universe from the time the genes form to the time the person is born and receives data from their external environment which serve as experiences. This uniqueness has absolutely nothing to do with a divinity imparting a soul to the person.

IV. Refutation of divine intervention as the cause of the randomness of events and the occurrence of rare events:

People often interpret rare occurrences such as surviving an accident or the occurrence of freak weather phenomena as the cause of divine intervention or good luck but in reality these occurrences are the product of the entropic behavior of matter. The Law of Entropy and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that the behavior of the matter that comprises a system is not completely predictable and that there is a certain percentage tolerance error that causes the elementary particles comprising all systems not to move in perfectly predictable trajectories but the statistical probability of a particle’s behavior can be quantized by mathematical tools called wave functions which are used in quantum physics. It is a function typically of space or momentum or spin and possibly of time that returns the probability amplitude of a position or momentum for a subatomic particle. Mathematically, it is a function from a space that maps the possible states of the system into complex numbers. The laws of quantum physics such as the Schrödinger Equation describe how the wave function changes over time. The cause of the tolerance errors in a particle’s behavior can be traced to the fact that the energy used to excite the particle cannot travel in a perfectly uniform direction due to inefficiencies in the transfer of energy. And the inefficiencies in the transfer of energy can be traced to the Big Bang because the explosion of the singularity that caused particles to move into space did not transfer its energy in a perfectly uniform distribution which could be attributed to the differing intrinsic properties of elementary particles which have different responses to the energy inputted to them by the system and the non-uniform distribution of the particles compressed into the singularity. These principles can be used to explain the unpredictability of weather, events on the local and astrophysical scale, the impossibility of perfectly replicating mass produced objects on a subatomic scale due to machine tolerance errors, efficiency limits on energy conversion devices which cannot achieve 100% efficiency, the tolerance errors of calibrated measuring devices, and even the uniqueness of the DNA of offspring from all life forms.

Conclusion:

The randomness of the events in the Universe can be described in completely mathematical and scientific terms and experiments on subatomic particles in High Energy Colliders have proven this. Therefore divine intervention in microscopic, local and cosmic events cannot occur.
 
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Ow,my brain hurts,lol.I read the whole thing,I'm just not sure I understood everything I read haha.I tried though.
To answer the original question I do believe in ghosts,I don't know about a divine God such as Zeus,Jesus,God,Aphrodite,etc.
 
I had answered No until i read his post and realized he was talking about God as well..damn i really should read the posts first, before voting..
 
I don't really believe in any supernatural stuff, but I said yes because I think ghosts and reincarnation are cool. lol
 
Thers are still lot of phenomenon that cannot be explained perfectly by science...
 
*Gasp*

What an interesting read. I have to re-read though because it's too heavy.

It is actually a shock to find a different article as in-depth as this in a fetish forum. So please pardon me by saying that I run a "plagiarism" tool to check if you got this from other sources, and wow, it appears to be authentically written by you!

As to why you posted it here, I really do not know. But I'd like to thank you for sharing it.

Some skeptic things I could associate with it would be the writings I read from two non-fiction books written by Erich von Danicken and Zechariah Sitchin, which had touched some topics on Big Bang Theory and other cataclysmic things that happen in the cosmos not seen by the visible eyes. Danicken was quite a questionable author, but at any rate, he had written some interesting points. Some of the theories on those books are mathematically illustrated, making them quite convincing even without actually experiencing them.

I will re-read this again on offline mode.
 
Almost got me with that one! You put the No on top and the Yes on the bottom.:lol But anyway... I said yes. Although I don't consider myself to follow any established religion word-for-word, I do NOT believe that life was an accident. On that note, I also disagree with science on whether or not viruses are living things, but that's a different matter.

My point is, all of the creatures on Earth are designed with defense mechanisms, adaptations, evolutions, and a balance of strength and flaws. A near-perfect balance. The sun and Earth are also done in such a way that we can survive without instant death. Not only that, but out of all the planets in our solar system, only ONE is known to still hold intelligent life? The "coincidence theory" goes out the window for me. I just don't believe that all of the right factors for creating and sustaining life "just so happened" to occur "by accident". Compared to this "right place, right time" theory, God doesn't sound so farfetched to me.

What I do believe in is fate, and "everything happens for a reason".

And, to go back to the solar system thing for a moment...While it may be possible that we're the only *cough cough* "civilized" lifeforms in our solar system, I believe that anybody who thinks that we're all alone in this ridiculously gigantic universe - or even the Milky Way Galaxy is hugely mistaken. In other words, I also believe that :alien: are...well, maybe not "among us". Maybe, maybe not, but they're around...somewhere. Besides, it'd be so awesome to meet up with aliens like the ones from Mass Effect...
 
Ghosts...not really...I don' think an almighty being (call it god or whatever) would be so cruel as to let people's souls not be able to rest by haunting the world of the living.

I do however believe some things are just out of this f'ing world! From an entire forest in Russia being leveled due to a horrific explosion (but the trees lying TOWARDS THE EXPLOSION and not away [meaning they were sucked towards the blast and not pushed away]) to the wormholeish phenomenon that appeared above the European sky recently! Strange stuff that we can't explain!
 
Science is independent of the flawed thinking of humans and the first step to knowing is not to try to fit the universe into our biased perception but to accept whatever we have investigated as truth. Because if we would just use our wishes and perceptions as the measure of our knowledge then we can invent all sorts of pseudo scientific phenomena and just delude ourselves from reality. Although I do not believe in the supernatural I believe its greatest lesson is that humans are not the peak of power and of evolution that there are forms of thinking and ways of manipulating matter that may vastly surpass what humans are presently capable of. We must discard our sentimental attachment to our humanity if we want to become a superior species, alien or even an ethereal being. But this evolution will be guided by science.
 
As a budding astrophysicist, this post is somewhat right up my alley. I have a key problems though:

Asymmetry. To put it VERY short and simple; there is an observed asymmetry in the universe - between matter and anti-matter - meaning there isn't any anti-matter except that which we create in labs - we know it exists. When matter and anti-matter come into contact with one another; they annihilate. Baryogenesis is the hypothetical process that explains this - there was an ancient "tug of war" between matter and anti-matter - as we can all see, matter won. The very existence of this asymmetry throws a hitch in the "infinite energy, finite universe" idea. You have to account for this before you can state that there's even a framework for a multiverse.


But I like the "Big Rip" end the most, as it seems the most relevant to our universe. Per megaparsec (mega parallax of one arcsecond) between galaxies, space expands around 70~ kilometers per second. This is the Hubble Constant. Part of this measurement comes from the redshift (light proportionally shifted toward the red spectrum indicates an object moving away, blue shift indicates moving toward the observer) of galaxies being directly proportional to their distance from us. The force behind that expansion is Dark Energy, not Dark Matter. Dark Matter is the force that binds galaxies together, as they're not gravitationally powerful enough to do it on their own.

Thers are still lot of phenomenon that cannot be explained perfectly by science...

Not yet. Science is still growing.



*Gasp*

What an interesting read. I have to re-read though because it's too heavy.

It is actually a shock to find a different article as in-depth as this in a fetish forum. So please pardon me by saying that I run a "plagiarism" tool to check if you got this from other sources, and wow, it appears to be authentically written by you!

As to why you posted it here, I really do not know. But I'd like to thank you for sharing it.

Some skeptic things I could associate with it would be the writings I read from two non-fiction books written by Erich von Danicken and Zechariah Sitchin, which had touched some topics on Big Bang Theory and other cataclysmic things that happen in the cosmos not seen by the visible eyes. Danicken was quite a questionable author, but at any rate, he had written some interesting points. Some of the theories on those books are mathematically illustrated, making them quite convincing even without actually experiencing them.

I will re-read this again on offline mode.

I have a problem with both of those authors and their books - they both have questionable reputations, and questionable material in both of those books. Sitchin's Planet X or Nibiru or whatever it's called - really has no basis in reality. While I believe that aliens exist (Drake equation), I don't buy into the idea of intelligent beings from another world interacting with us. We live in the backwater, uninteresting "neighborhood" in our Galaxy. The only reason intelligent beings would come here (in my opinion, I can't honestly speak for them) is for material resources.
 
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I have a problem with both of those authors and their books - they both have questionable reputations, and questionable material in both of those books. Sitchin's Planet X or Nibiru or whatever it's called - really has no basis in reality. While I believe that aliens exist (Drake equation), I don't buy into the idea of intelligent beings from another world interacting with us. We live in the backwater, uninteresting "neighborhood" in our Galaxy. The only reason intelligent beings would come here (in my opinion, I can't honestly speak for them) is for material resources.

Yes. But some of their probabilities are "entertaining," if you get what I mean.

The 12th planet and those divisibility of 12 in enormous coincidences are worth knowing, at least. It stirred my mind. I don't need to believe everything they said, but just like you, there are opinions. Thanks for sharing your view.
 
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Entertaining indeed. Sitchin and von Daniken just bother me because they're nuts. Sitchin either lied or made many, many mistakes in his translation of Sumerian texts. Plus, within a small number of orbits, this "Nibiru" would have likely 'shot off' from it's orbit and deep into space. Again, he either lied or made mistakes in his "research".

Another plus - it's just so Lovecraftian. :lol
 
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I voted yes. I believe there are many things in this world that are beyond scientific explanation, and the paranormal fits into that category as far as I'm concerned.
 
The problem is that accounts of paranormal phenomena world-wide are so inconsistent with each other. How can you believe in something to be supernatural that might just be something natural, yet misunderstood?
 
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Radiant - photons emitted at various rates which gives rise to the electromagnetic spectrum.

The problem is that accounts of paranormal phenomena world-wide are so inconsistent with each other. How can you believe in something to be supernatural that might just be something natural, yet misunderstood?

Well they are mostly clashing actually, but for some reason, books gets published and some have substantial results that are quite close. When an author does a lot of blah on epics and stories by patching biblical instances with myths as if they coincide convincingly, it makes me yawn. But then, there are archaeological finds that seem to show evidences, still I am too far and detached to investigate for real. I take those as entertainment reading and trivia.

Anyway, an example of something I find convincing is what can be deduced out of kirlian photography, which can capture human aura as image forms (photo). The paranormal phenomenon on this aspect has been proven quite scientific. Otherwise, correct me if I am wrong.
 
This is pretty much the best post by anyone ever- thank you.

My thoughts on a Creator; life seems to arise by itself from simple elements (carbon, oxygen, etc) So a divine "Creator" is not necessary for life to have formed. OR is it a supreme act of elegance and brilliance by the Creator that he gave the simplest elements the ability to re-combine into living, conscious things?

If you look at Genesis symbolically evolution is spelled out very clearly (sort-of)- thousands of years before Darwin. Same thing with the formation of the Sun and Solar System. Plus it says man was formed from dust; well, Science says that too.

It didn't happen in six 24-hour days of course, the "days" of creation are poetic licence to help early Man understand it. (I suspect that we may still be in the sixth "day" of Creation, it symbolizes the current age of life on Earth. But that's another topic I'd really like to chat about)

There's no reason for conflict between religion and science; religious believers should rejoice when science shows them HOW glorious the universe really is but instead they get the "Flat-Earth" or "Geocentric" mentality; they accuse the Galileos of the world of heresy because truth threatens their own dogmatic words which they've added to the Bible. The Bible never said the Sun orbits the Earth, nor vice-versa.

The idea that life can arise all by itself from dust and mud is far more wondrous than some 'god' reaching down and carving us out of clay or maize. Science will lead us closer to the truth, but we shouldn't lightly deny "God" or "gods"
 
I voted yes. I believe there are many things in this world that are beyond scientific explanation, and the paranormal fits into that category as far as I'm concerned.

This is about the best way I can explain my viewpoint as well.

While no one has proven to me that paranormal things exist, no one has proven to me that it doesn't.

As well, I have had enough experiences happen to me personally, that I am not going to deny it at all.

Great question though and very interesting answers too! :)
 
Anyway, an example of something I find convincing is what can be deduced out of kirlian photography, which can capture human aura as image forms (photo). The paranormal phenomenon on this aspect has been proven quite scientific. Otherwise, correct me if I am wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge

This is pretty much the best post by anyone ever- thank you.

My thoughts on a Creator; life seems to arise by itself from simple elements (carbon, oxygen, etc) So a divine "Creator" is not necessary for life to have formed. OR is it a supreme act of elegance and brilliance by the Creator that he gave the simplest elements the ability to re-combine into living, conscious things?

If you look at Genesis symbolically evolution is spelled out very clearly (sort-of)- thousands of years before Darwin. Same thing with the formation of the Sun and Solar System. Plus it says man was formed from dust; well, Science says that too.

It didn't happen in six 24-hour days of course, the "days" of creation are poetic licence to help early Man understand it. (I suspect that we may still be in the sixth "day" of Creation, it symbolizes the current age of life on Earth. But that's another topic I'd really like to chat about)

There's no reason for conflict between religion and science; religious believers should rejoice when science shows them HOW glorious the universe really is but instead they get the "Flat-Earth" or "Geocentric" mentality; they accuse the Galileos of the world of heresy because truth threatens their own dogmatic words which they've added to the Bible. The Bible never said the Sun orbits the Earth, nor vice-versa.

The idea that life can arise all by itself from dust and mud is far more wondrous than some 'god' reaching down and carving us out of clay or maize. Science will lead us closer to the truth, but we shouldn't lightly deny "God" or "gods"

Agreed on your point that life developing on it's own is wondrous. And.. that's about anything we can agree on. :lol I have to disagree about your ideas of religion and science. Religion requires a certain degree of faith - science requires no faith at all. Having "faith" in a process explained by science is confusing, which many people seem to have. Intellectually, it leads a person nowhere to introduce the "god of the gaps". You may posit that god=responsible for x existing, but you still haven't figured out what x actually is.

On another note, I don't think genesis spells out anything clearly; read symbolically or not. Unless, by looking at it symbolically, you mean ignoring all of the terrible scientific inaccuracies and trying to reconcile it in your brain. I can't do it. :lol

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the bible is too ass-backwards. If there was such a being capable of creating a universe, and "programming" the various physical laws so it may govern itself, and this god deemed it necessary to not only mettle in the lives of mere mortals, but also to give them a book of knowledge - why is it the bible? One can learn more about the physical universe by opening a 2nd grade science textbook than reading the bible over and over. I don't mean any of this to be insulting, but I would expect the guy who created the universe to be able to jot down some physics, or some calculus. I don't think the bible contains anything mathematically correct.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge



I have to disagree about your ideas of religion and science. Religion requires a certain degree of faith - science requires no faith at all.

On another note, I don't think genesis spells out anything clearly; read symbolically or not. Unless, by looking at it symbolically, you mean ignoring all of the terrible scientific inaccuracies and trying to reconcile it in your brain. I can't do it. :lol

.

The Bible says without Faith it's impossible to please God; which means if there really is a Creator who wants us to have faith, He had to create the universe in such a cunning way that no matter how much we learn about it it still doesn't prove His existence, because He wouldn't want to cheat us out of our faith by showing himself.

Also, of course Genesis is full of innacuracies; it's symbolic. Different life forms arose on each of the six days of creation; plants, fish, land animals, man- this could be seen as a very crude, simplified outline of evolution. Besides, Genesis was written over a Millenium before Christ, you can't cry "scientific innacuracies" about a document that pre-dates the scientific method by several thousand years.

I used to think science was a modern 'priesthood'- deliberately lying to the public in order to deny God. Obscuring all their "facts" in arcane mystical languages (Latin and Greek) to mystify the public. I know better now, but I run across many angry atheists who add fuel to this sort of view with their desparate insistence that God MUST NOT exist.

Atheists have a well-deserved reputation for being arrogant and impossible to argue with; I've "debated" with atheists who exhibit all the illogic and fanatical fervor of a religious zealot (You don't seem like one of these, but if you've ever run across one of them you know what I mean) and these people do a great dis-service to science and Critical Thinking.

It took a lot to 'convert' me to evolution- I wish I could explain it well, but all I heard for years was the "revealed Truth" of the "Science Priests"- the sledgehammer of "There's no god, now believe what we say or you're stupid!"
It's the same "Don't question us cause we know more than you!" attitude you get from church leaders! This is NO way to lift people out of their superstitions.

Anyone who wants to persuade religious people that science is a path to the truth needs to take their cue from Carl Sagan, James Randi, or the 'Skeptoid' or "SGU" podcasts- these present science/evolution etc from a critical thinking perspective that doesn't insult the listener's intelligence. Through this approach I came to see the evidence for Evolution and had to accept it. If God exists then this is the way He created life. I'm not ready to deny 'God' because that's just pride/hubris; I see no conflict between the Genesis creation story and the truth that science has shown us.

(sorry for being so long-winded at 3am)
 
Well my point about the scientific inaccuracies is that if the creator of the universe inspired or even wrote these documents, I expect them to be filled with insights and knowledge that uplift our culture.

Anybody who takes a look into documented history will note is not the case; look at the myriad of crusades the many abrahamic doctrines have inflicted upon the world. Look at the barbaric witch burnings and inquisitions. This is clearly not an uplifting set of ideas. Anybody who looks into the past will also note that deep cultural/scientific enlightenment was given to the world by hard-working men, and quite a few women.

I fully expect and want people to question science. Please, question the world around you! I don't want people to take anything scientifically-factual I say at face value because oh, I'm an astrophysicist. I don't know everything. I am no priest, I preach no dogma. This is the beauty of science. It is a collection of methods for observing, measuring and understanding phenomena in the physical universe that we live in; and anybody with a functioning brain can use it. So think for yourselves. If you can still somehow find god amongst scientific skepticism, then there is nothing I can do to do dissuade you from that. The evidence just does not point toward any creator.
 
Well,there is one thing I want to know...who wrote the original bible then...
There is one that is the original,I don't know where it is,but it isn't written in English and it has more chapters then people see in the newer versions.
 
The church has done a fantastic job wrapping up their "odds and ends" concerning the bible, and various missing chapters. Most of the information concerning this is probably lost to history.
 
Well,I have a slight problem with that..I can't believe a church..I'm sorry but,I can't.I've seen how they can get with their motives.They already took pieces out and buried them somewhere until people found them ages later.
I wish someone who was an expert in the language of that area would interpret the bible word for word exactly the way it was put back when it was written.It has to be somebody who isn't religious though and who doesn't have other underlying motives.
I just want to know the real original story without years of writing and rewriting.
If you ever played that game when you were younger (I forget the name) where you sit in a circle and one person whispers something into another persons' ear.Then,that person whispers the word they heard into the next person's ear and so on and so fourth until they get all the way around the circle.Then,that person whispers the word they heard into the first person's ear and it generally isn't the word that person said.Anyway,I kinda think through all the years of this writing and rewriting some of the original bible could have had the same thing happen to it.Maybe not but,I think it's a big possibility.So,I would just like to see it for myself and hear the story from the original teller.
 
First of all.. not believing a church is a good thing. ;)

The problem you run into though, is early history. It's written by the victorious, not the morally righteous. A language expert cannot read something that has been burned to ashes. Everything before the "authorized" King James bible is probably long rotted away or burned into extinction. Even before that, in 1199 Pope Innocent III banned unauthorized copies. History itself has some sketchy moments, and organized religions are even sketchier. The best thing to do is forget about their documents entirely and start learning about the world itself. History may lie, but science does not. Not on purpose anyway. There were a few sketchy moments in early modern science, but "we" have learned from our mistakes.
 
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