Faith vs. Science

[Yersinia]

It's not an assertion, it's a fact. But since this forum has horrible allergies to discussions involving religion - and the fact that you're neither a Bible scholar or paleontologist - we'll just let it alone.

What garbage. This is only a fact if your name is Micheal Behe and you have absolute contempt for science.

Its scientifically trivial to show that dinosaurs predated humans by millions of years, and I can tell you that as someone with a degree in chemistry. The scientific community does not entertain the kind of nonsense ideas you are advancing - they laugh at them. Charlatans like the folks at the discovery institute aren't taken seriously by real scientists, and they don't publish peer reviewed papers.

 

[juggernaut]

What garbage. This is only a fact if your name is Micheal Behe and you have absolute contempt for science.

Its scientifically trivial to show that dinosaurs predated humans by millions of years, and I can tell you that as someone with a degree in chemistry. The scientific community does not entertain the kind of nonsense ideas you are advancing - they laugh at them. Charlatans like the folks at the discovery institute aren't taken seriously by real scientists, and they don't publish peer reviewed papers.

Science doesn't debunk it, it supports it. Unfortunately, most scientist don't understand or endorse anything they can't prove, so having a faith based conversation is generally pointless. And to just call someone else's perspective "garbage" is pretty narrow minded. Scientist are welcome to laugh all they want, but that doesn't change the facts. You don't have to believe in gravity, either, but I wouldn't advise jumping off a building... for most people.

 

[the_jimmy_james]

Here's the problem. You say "Oh it's so bad that most scientists are so so so so so so!"

But then you essentially go and say "But I get my idea from something written in an old book..."

HOW DID THIS START?!?!?!

For God's sake fuck this shit.

Palin fucking sucks. Watch her interview series running all this week on CBS I think. It says everything.

 

[juggernaut]

Very elegant. Palin doesn't suck because of her beliefs in the Bible. If that's your beef with her, then you have to also be an ignorant ass to a lot of Christians in the ol' forum here. I find it somewhat ironic that I get such a reaction to an "old fictional book" from a bunch of adults that play with light sabers. And much like you don't care what I think about that, it doesn't sway me what the other opinions of the Bible are.

 

[Wade1]

Unfortunately, most scientist don't understand or endorse anything they can't prove, so having a faith based conversation is generally pointless.

You can have a faith-based conversation with scientists, but they would be discussing as human beings, not as scientists. (I know plenty of scientists who are Christians.) But you're right that the discipline of science cannot address issues of faith--only subjects that can be tested and measured and, sometimes, proven. The scientific community would be excited and galvanized to discover evidence that completely overthrew the evolution model, or that showed dinosaurs and humans coexisting--that's the kind of paradigm-busting discovery that makes careers. But it hasn't happened. At last not yet.

 

[Yersinia]

Science doesn't debunk it, it supports it. Unfortunately, most scientist don't understand or endorse anything they can't prove, so having a faith based conversation is generally pointless. And to just call someone else's perspective "garbage" is pretty narrow minded. Scientist are welcome to laugh all they want, but that doesn't change the facts. You don't have to believe in gravity, either, but I wouldn't advise jumping off a building... for most people.

Science is the act of supporting ideas with emperical evidence, so if an idea is untestable science doesn't deal with it. The idea that dinosaurs and humans coexisted has been tested and falsified. The idea that things fall toward the earth has been tested and never falsified (the closest we can come to proving anything empirically) and thus it has been integrated into the belief system of the scientific community.

Critical thought is not narrowmindedness, it is what has kept science healthy and undiluted by nonsense. Those ideas which are controversial, but ultimately impervious to falsification (see quantum mechanics) are kept, while those which are based on unscientific precepts and lack evidence (see creation pseudoscience, particullary young earth varieties) are rejected.

You may be under the impression that you have heard scientists validate the idea that the earth is less than 4 billion years old, or that dinosaurs and people walked together, but you would be wrong. Those who espouse these view points are merely impersonating scientists, and are generally either liars or idiots.

 

[melanie2]

yikes..who cares if dinosaurs and humans co existed or not??? what on earth does that have to do with today's problems??

 

[juggernaut]

... impression that you have heard scientists validate the idea that the earth is less than 4 billion years old, or that dinosaurs and people walked together, but you would be wrong. Those who espouse these view points are merely impersonating scientists, and are generally either liars or idiots.

That's fine. I don't just abandon my beliefs or faith because some faceless screenname in a fetish forum strolls by and says "You're wrong."

Actually, I'm right. I'm content to drop it, but I want you to do me a favor... when the time comes, if you're still alive at that point, I want you to take one second and remember the phrase "Every eye will see and every knee will bow." That's all. I don't know that I'll be online to say "I told you so".

Over and out. So how about that woman Palin?

 

[Yersinia]

That's fine. I don't just abandon my beliefs or faith because some faceless screenname in a fetish forum strolls by and says "You're wrong."

Actually, I'm right. I'm content to drop it, but I want you to do me a favor... when the time comes, if you're still alive at that point, I want you to take one second and remember the phrase "Every eye will see and every knee will bow." That's all. I don't know that I'll be online to say "I told you so".

Over and out. So how about that woman Palin?

Thats ok. When you meet the flying spaghetti monster who created the universe with his noodly appendeges you can just explain all this heresy to him. Don't try to tell me he doesn't exist because I've read a book all about it!!

http://www.venganza.org/

 

[juggernaut]

As ridiculous as that is, it still makes more sense than being an atheist.

This is what I find humorous. Sad, but humorous in a sense. Okay... we'll take all faith out of the equation and say I'm talking to the scientific community. The people that like facts and proof.

You and I are walking down the sidewalk and you see a watch laying there. A watch is made up of machined parts, intricate gears, dozens and dozens of tiny precise components. Now how did that get there? I can safely say I'd have an impossible time convincing you that there was a series of explosions and ta-da: a little working machine. Or I took two lumps of dirt, smashed it together, and got a watch. There's no conceivable way you'd believe that watch just appeared from dirt or explosions. I also probably couldn't convince you that it was just a chunk of iron ore that had been laying there for 10,000 years and eventually became a watch. You'd argue that someone designed it, had to measure for every piece, manufacture it and great lengths were taken to make sure it was precise and working. But I know you wouldn't believe it just "happened". Someone is responsible.

So... the human body. A complex system of other systems. Regenerative. Self healing. Intuitive. Learning. Feeling. Adaptive. A brain that does trillions of calculations per second. All made up of - according to science and biology - cells, which are made up of atoms, which are made up of even smaller components, which - according to science - constantly circle each other at almost immeasurable speeds. What holds all that together and keeps the electrons from just flying about randomly? No one knows.

So you'll insist that a watch had to be the work of someone, but the human body - an infinitely infinitely infinitely more complex machine ... well, that just happened. Some mud exploded and we all began doing calculus. From everything we know about the body, it should be the scientific community proclaiming there's no possible way it just happened. With the way they can break it down and apply their science, it should be them scratching their heads. But eventually science will exhaust all it's knowledge and procedures and it all reaches a point where your doctors and scientists will come back to you and say "I don't know" and they reach the end of their understanding.

Ask me where the end of my faith is.

It's okay. If you want to be an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else.. you don't answer to me for it. Do what you need to do. Christians will tell you that Jesus never commanded us to go put people in headlocks and beat them in to submission. He said talk to them. But here in the Flame Pit of discussion where everyone wants it genderless, sexless, politically unbiased, everyone is equal, everyone is right, everyone is neutral, and everyone must agree on the same shit, a truly meaningful discussion rarely gets a good foot hold. Let's draw cartoons.

Everyone bitches about the way the US is run, but no one really notices this tiny little insignificant forum has alot of the same properties. We can talk in generalities, let everyone say whatever they want, but look at almost every non-tickling thread that has anything to do with politics, homosexuality, religion and other assorted grown up topics... one person speaks their mind, gets flame broiled for it, the thread goes to shit quickly and is either locked or eventually threatened by a mod.

I know this isn't a think tank. It shouldn't be. This is a place to enjoy the community and the topic. But it'd be nice once in a while to log in and see all these people [who rant, cut into others, and really pretend to have a grip on how to save the world] just have an open ended discussion and "agree to disagree" if it comes to that. Just barging in an telling others that they're fucking retarded shows who's in here. There's no need to try slamming everyone who doesn't agree with you. If you have a point, make it. But just telling others "they're stupid because you said so" doesn't really bolster credibility. For being an "adult" forum, we don't get many displays of it.

And that's not just specifically for you, Yersinia. That's for anyone who thinks ridicule and arrogance wins a debate.


Speaking of debates... how about Palin?

 

[Camel26]

Thats ok. When you meet the flying spaghetti monster who created the universe with his noodly appendeges you can just explain all this heresy to him. Don't try to tell me he doesn't exist because I've read a book all about it!!

http://www.venganza.org/

May you be touched by His noodly appendage...

Ra-men!!!
:greenstar:feather::greenstar

 

[juggernaut]

Ra-men!!!

Best. Post. Ever.

 

[taxwaxus]

For the love of shit…please don’t let this place turn into the TMF.

I don’t like responding to these things because people are seldom convinced by another viewpoint and it just adds fuel to the fire. However, I’m a research scientist, so I feel compelled to reply.

First, a minor point in regards to we don’t know why atoms are held together. Yes we do. Quantum mechanics. In VERY basic terms electrons (-) are attracted to an oppositely charged nucleus (+), keeping the atom from just flying apart. Also, the inertia inherent to the electron path of flight keeps electrons from just smashing into the nucleus. Same reason that the planets don’t crash into the sun or why when you throw a football it doesn’t plummet straight to Earth.
Major point- The watch argument is used a lot. Here’s my issue with it. Watches don’t just come to be. Watches can’t make babies, but people obviously can. We self-assemble our offspring from just a few biomacromolecules and basically four types of atoms from our cellular machinery. The analogy just doesn’t work unless you assume people are like watches and can’t reproduce. Show me a human that spontaneously generated in the desert without a ribosome and you’ll convince me otherwise. And I know what the next assertion is- God pointed a finger and created the ribosome. If that’s your viewpoint check out the famous Miller-Urey experiment- all the building blocks of life from just water, hydrogen, methane, and ammonia in an environment simulating ancient Earth. Also, when you really think about it, watches have “evolved” from a stick in the dirt, which became a sundial, which became a candle with notches in it, which became an hourglass, which became a clock, which finally became a watch. Sounds familiar.

Nature is elegant, no doubt. I won’t say there definitely is not a God, but the fact of the matter shouldn’t discredit unbiased, peer-reviewed data. Its just downright lazy not to appreciate the physics, chemistry, and biology that makes life so.

 

[Dr. Bill Kobb]

For the love of shit…please don’t let this place turn into the TMF.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out why we are having all of these hot-button topics of late. Was there not enough of that already over on the TMF for some folks?

 

[juggernaut]

Its just downright lazy not to appreciate the physics, chemistry, and biology that makes life so.

Nonsense. I appreciate all of that. I'm completely marveled by it. I just credit God with the design of it. I personally think it's weird to think that a group of some of the smartest men and women on the planet who reverse-engineer some of it have the need to attribute it to natural magic.

Also, show me a scientist in any field who can take an inanimate object and bring it to a biologically functional life and maybe I'll change my mind. I haven't heard of anything yet. Keep in mind that the words physics, chemistry, and biology are just labels that men have given different aspects of their studies. They're just categories we use to separate and communicate the different parts of the greater picture.

I think I'm being misunderstood here. I'm not saying "It's all God. There is no science." It's the others saying "it's all science, there is no God." I love science. It helps me understand all this stuff God created.

As for the watch analogy, you're stick in the dirt would have to eventually turn into a modern day watch made up of all wooden parts if you wanna compare it to mine. You've changed materials explaining the advances in design and technology. My analogy would've had to be we went from being amoebas to robots. Man, this place loves to split hairs.

And for RickTibbler - just like everyone has been goose-piling on others recently for the content, I'll say the same... there are thousands of other threads you can click on if this isn't of any interest to you. You came in voluntarily just to say you don't like it.

I find it weird also that for being such a "tight knit community" and everyone here is just "the bestest friends in the world" that it's preferred to be so shallow. No one wants to talk about anything with any teeth to it. OMG! RELIGION! RUUUUN!!!!! There are several of us in here who enjoy more than "what movie did you watch?" and "What do you think of these feet I saw at the park today?" Seriously. I know this is a tickling based forum, but that's all you have to say to each other? And everyone has to agree or the shit hits the fan.


Just so I don't have to keep posting novels, I state for the record:

- I'm not a Jesus Freak. I'm a Christian.
- I don't hate science. I love science.
- I don't need everyone to agree with me. It's healthy to disagree. Honestly.
- I love gays. I love lesbians. I love atheists, Buddhists, Muslims... I love everyone. I can't help it. It goes with being a Christian. You wouldn't understand.
- We don't need to debate every post that has something to do with religion, politics, etc. Everyone just barges in, runs at the mouth and tries to bully the person who mentions a "taboo" topic until they shut up. Bad form.
- This place is not the open forum it was 5 years ago. And those who've been here know it.

 

[Bashiku]

Science is a tool of man that is used to understand his surrounding better.
Faith is a tool of man that is used to justify our existence.
When we combine those two we get superman...
If you expected something smart out of this post... don't bet... I am not in that kind of a mood...

 

[juggernaut]

Nothing wrong with a little levity.

So are you saying Superman created everything?

 

[Bashiku]

Nothing wrong with a little levity.

So are you saying Superman created everything?

To hell with Superman... that is how Chuck Norris was created. White man wearing his underpants outside and unbeatable by any seen force, except rare stone from his home planet that turns around any corner. Only problem is that we don't know Chucks home planet...

 

[juggernaut]

All they know is he gave it a roundhouse kick and it ceased to exist.

 

[jts963]

As ridiculous as that is, it still makes more sense than being an atheist.

This is what I find humorous. Sad, but humorous in a sense. Okay... we'll take all faith out of the equation and say I'm talking to the scientific community. The people that like facts and proof.

Your ignorance is deep and pathetic.

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion."
-- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address
US astronomer & popularizer of astronomy (1934 - 1996)

Here's more from Sagan:

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

"I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble."

"Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?"

Here's one from me:

"Faith is belief despite the absence of supporting evidence. A reasonable person can have faith. Blind faith is belief not just despite the absence of supporting evidence but also despite the presence of contradicting evidence. A person cannot have blind faith and still be reasonable."

Your religion requires blind faith. No, thanks.

 

[Bashiku]

Call me professional thread jacker...

 

[juggernaut]

Your ignorance is deep and pathetic.

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion."
-- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address
US astronomer & popularizer of astronomy (1934 - 1996)

Here's more from Sagan:

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

"I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble."

"Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?"

Here's one from me:

"Faith is belief despite the absence of supporting evidence. A reasonable person can have faith. Blind faith is belief not just despite the absence of supporting evidence but also despite the presence of contradicting evidence. A person cannot have blind faith and still be reasonable."

Your religion requires blind faith. No, thanks.

Thank you. Have we met?

And here's one from me:

"Yours sucks."

 

[Bashiku]

Your ignorance is deep and pathetic.

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion."
-- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address
US astronomer & popularizer of astronomy (1934 - 1996)

Here's more from Sagan:

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality."

"I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble."

"Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?"

Here's one from me:

"Faith is belief despite the absence of supporting evidence. A reasonable person can have faith. Blind faith is belief not just despite the absence of supporting evidence but also despite the presence of contradicting evidence. A person cannot have blind faith and still be reasonable."

Your religion requires blind faith. No, thanks.

I so love when people call each other bad names for no reason at all. Science is a creation of man and it is explain as man perceive, but not all is accurate.
Faith is the same. We created it cause we couldn't comprehend what is happening around us, so in short religion and science are relatives.
There is a saying "Man who doesn't fear is a fool."... same could be said for a man without faith, for to whom will he go to when everything else betrays him. I am for both science and religion, and I gladly mix them together blindly.

 

[juggernaut]

I am for both science and religion, and I gladly mix them together blindly.

I've been saying that this whole time. I totally agree.

However...

In keeping with what appears to be a rule of the forum, since you've mentioned that you're okay with religion, it's my duty to tell you that you're ignorant and stupid.

Welcome to the club.

 

[jts963]

I so love when people call each other bad names for no reason at all.

The reason was pretty obviuos for those who paid attention.

Science is a creation of man and it is explain as man perceive, but not all is accurate.

Tell us something we don't know. Science has never claimed to be anything other than a work in progress. It is religion, or perhaps I should limit my critique to the Abrahamic religions, that claim to be the know-it-alls about how the universe works. The fact that the Abrahamic religions have been proven wrong time and time again does not penetrate the skulls of the blind faithful. Sad and pathetic, but that incurable ignorance will not hold back the rest of us who aren't afraid to think for ourselves.