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Happy Tofurkey Day ! ...

And Japanese,Korean,Filipino,etc

Haltickling said:
You eat Chinese??? :yowzer: Just their food, I hope... :D


That,too,Hal!!! :smilestar !All right,I`ll admit it! I`ve got a thing for Oriental women!I guess Uncle Sam left me in West Pac a bit too long! :wub:
 
petaor5.jpg
 
isabeau said:
ack..now i know i won't eat it..anything rubbery will never enter my mouth..
Oh no! This could be asking for trouble. :shock:
 
Why cant you all wait till Xmas like the rest of us? typical Americans!
 
Your arguments are fair, venray

And I will answer, just after I move to strike this analogy:

I argue that your analogies are not in place. Why? Because Whatever my POSITIONS are in the two issues you mentioned, I do not DO or TAKE PART in anything of the above. If you asked me if I USE escort services, for example (USE, not THINK they are ok, USE), and I answered "yes" you could call my a hipocrit. You would justly say "you lobby for a consumer boycott, you call us not to TAKE PART in cruelty, but you support yourself an industry the undoubtly abouses women". Even if you manage to make an argument that these two issues you mentioned are abusive and unjust, you will not be able to pin me as a part of it, because THOUGHTS are not ACTIONS. If you THOUGHT Animals are merely here to serve us, but wouldn't TAKE PART in chain of abuse by supporting the industry - well, so be it.

I am an Israeli (hence the broken english), and in this country the death penalty was excersized once, to the best of my knowledge, in Nazi criminal Adolf Eichmann's case.

I will admit I struggle with it. Not because I think killing a Nazi criminal is anything like killing an innocent individual, but because the issue of doubt is an issue, whenever a hard penalty - especially death - is the subject.

As to abortion - that too is an issue. Once again, my moral liability in this issue is NOTHING LIKE a supporter of the meat industry to the killing of animals, because I do not make abortions, I do not push for them, and I do not pay anybody to do them, or support their "industry". If I did any of the above, then we would have do debate if an abortion is or is not murder - and if it is indeed - then, and only then, you could call me a hipocrit.

Since both these issues are not ones I take PART in on a daily basis, my moral responsibility here is not like as if I did. As somebody who does not actively supports neaither, I can allow my self not to have all the answers about them. As of abortion, It is very clear to me that the "day after" pill is something I can morally support, because there is just a "potential" to life here, but this can not be considered as an independent, living being, who suffers and has interests. It is obvious that if an abortion is made very late - it is already a living being. When and how the one turns into the other - I do not know.

That is - to your questions. But that is, not the issue.
Yes, I lobby for the cause to make this very unspiritual earthly cause, of exterminating the use, abouse, and torture of others. I try to convince, BECAUSE YOU THE PEOPLE have the power to change. Since it is THE ACTIONS OF THE CONSUMER that support that turture, it is also IN YOUR power to stop it.

My appologies. I am not trying to make an argument that I am a "rightous" person, or a "better" person, and I do appologize if in the heat of the argument I blamed you somehow in being a bad person. I do not think you are at all. But I do argue that the DEEDS, THE CHOICES, and the overall LIFESTYLE that excludes , by fact, the intensive hands on cruelty to living beings is righter - not by MY standards of right and wrong, but by YOURS. and it is, isn't it? I make the assumption that we AGREE that the torture, abuse and killing of animals is not an inertic act, but that it has a bad and abusive content to it, and that as such - there should be a REALLY REALLY GOOD REASON to do it. Given this bad content, "simply because I CAN do it" is not enough. "I just feel like doing it", isn't eaither. Only something like "I have no choice" would do, but if there is a choice - what then?
 
Yikes Ray~who'd have thought a post sent in the spirit of fun would have turned so...um, controversial? :eek:
Nevertheless honey~on that issue, I'm afraid I've no answer to your dilemma. Oh well, hope you're having great holiday anyway sweetcheeks! :smilelove
XOXO

venray said:
Ah...then perhaps I should try stuffing a turkey with it to improve it's flavor though I am sure there is nothing that will improve upon it's rubber like texture.....

:xpulcy:
 
venray said:

Hey Ray? I know some vegetarians and vegans come off with judgmental and preachy attitudes and I can understand your taking umbrage with that, but it's possible that in your attempt to push their buttons you might inadvertently rub a friend the wrong way.

Not all vegetarians and vegans act that way, but barbs like this can hurt anyway.
 
I am a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals) and i'm sorry,but to equate humans with chickens,rabbits etc. is beyond me.And i am an animal lover.I don't hunt anymore,but i still enjoy fishing and i plan to continue to do so.If anyone makes a different choice more power to them,but spare me the selfrighteous attitude please.Such extreme attitude's do not sway most people to your cause and indeed will drive many away from even listening to your argument's.Having said that much,i respect your choice to live as you wish,and i ask nothing else in return.
 
Guys

Critisizing actions of somebody else does not make one a "preacher" or somebody who is "pushing" things on others.

You are so keen to turn me into a "bad" preacher, that you are taking an opposite position to an extreme. I doubt if you truely believe in all that. I have yet to see any reservation of the cruelty to animals itself. I may have missed it, but all I saw was chritisizing factory farming because of the heath impact on humans.

It all started with what turned out to be an act of mockary on the veg alternative to turkey. Fine, we are past that, but you do have to admit that it is fairly unreasonable to bash the "processing procedure" of a veg alternative, and be intollerant to a reamrk mentioning the "processing procedure" of the meat product it is trying to imitate.

You are making an admirable attempt to show that kiiling - or not killing - is just the same morally. do you really believe that?

"they are not like humans" says one. "It is natural" says the other".

Well, they don't have to be "like humans" to suffer, and to have some value to their lives, is it? And as to "nature", are you sure you want to take "nature" as a moral model? because nature includes quite some instances of what we would refer to as rape, murder, theft, and robery.

The sense of justice we all have is a "natural' thing, as well as a drive to hurt out of anger. People are more what they choose to be than anything else.
I challange you indeed, to consider, if animals are more like individuals, and hence need to be considered, or more like "things" which mean they do not. you cannot have it both ways.

Any one that would object to a person just kicking a dog in the street is inevitably addmitting the first rather than the latter.

True, we made the internet for out needs, but not our bodies.
But I brought a link to a scientific position statement, proving that health wise there is a viable alternative. This is NOT a news pieace in some paper paper, or a single research that some interesantic company sponsored and released a news release about. It is a joined position statement of two professional organizations of dietitions, that is based on a review of about 240 referants from the scientific literature.

Now, with all that said, make the calculations.

Though I was quite emotional about this debate, I think I was not very offensive, and in any case not anywhere as offensive as some of my opponents in this debate. In any case, I appologize as to when i was offensive. Being streightforward is fine, offensiveness was not. Now putting it all aside, stop blaming me for being "the bad guy", and consider the arguments to their merits.

One person wrote here something like "you do not have to be veg to be a good perosn". I do not say all I say beceause I think you are "bad" people. I say all I say because I think you ARE good people, and therefore there is a point to appeal to you, and ask you to reconsider. truely.

VT.
 
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In much of Asia,they eat dogs and cats like we eat chicken or beef.And no i do not not think you are a bad person,we must just agree to disagree on this issue.But when it comes right down to it,if i must chose between human and animal life,the animal is going to lose every time.If animal research will save human lives im sorry but im all for it.I have yet to see any animal other then man cure an illness or right any wrong in the world.What is cruel or not can be debated between resonable people,and if i gave offence in any way i did not mean to.
 
Dear Lord... I think I'd rather eat a New York City pigeon for Thanksgiving dinner than one of those things! :xlime:
 
Lynn I am truly sorry if I hurt your feelings......The intent was not there...

This DID start out as a simple thread, but I am glad that it has evolved into this debate....

Let me state for the record that I do not support the inhumane killing of any living being or creature....

Nor do I believe in torture......

What I argue with is the methods that groups like PETA and others use to push their views on others....Illegal methods (in many cases) by todays laws....

Let me also state that I have many friends here on the forum and off that are Vegans and vegetarians by choice for whatever reason and I admire them for choosing a lifestyle and sticking with it....

The difference is that I have NEVER personally met a vegan who once attempted to change my opinions or condemn me for my choices in life....That is why they are friends...... :cat:

The issue here is not whether one chooses to eat the flesh of animals, but of how these animals are raised and how they are killed and prepared for consumption....

I have no ill feelings towards Vegantickle for expressing his opinion on this issue nor any ill feelings towards those that agree with him or choose an alternate lifestyle....

If I came across that way it was unintentional......and I am sorry....

I do tend to have strong feelings on those that try to impose their beliefs on others by guilt trips or illegal acts......

I am just as hard on those that kill by bombing abortion clinics in the name of promoting life......doesnt sit well with me.....and I tend to get a little carried away with sarcasm at times....

Ray
 
I love Ray :D


There are A LOT of things wrong in this world, factory farming methods among them- and it's wrong not just because of the cruelty involved to the animals, but also the amount of real estate and grain used that could be better used to feed more people and also the health issues of steroids and antibiotics pumped into the animals to fight off the disease and muscle atrophy the factory farming methods necessarily cause. I choose not to eat factory farmed meat because of these issues.

On the other hand, rapidly depleting natural resources are an issue too, yet I still drive a car- a car that doesn't get particularly good gas mileage either. And my supermarket and gym are both within two miles of my house so I could easily ride a bike but I don't.

There are people who have no place to live. I don't do anything about that.

I don't always recycle. Sometimes I use paper towels when I could use a washable towel- oh but wait, washing laundry puts detergent into the water system and that's not good either.

You see my point? We all make our choices on how to live and we can't all possibly behave 100% responsibly in terms of this planet in everything we do. In our society it's just not possible. And some could debate it isn't even necessary. I know some of the people on this thread quite well and I know them to be caring, loving, generous people.

I don't require my friends be vegetarians, or even agree with my choices in that area- I just require that they do the best they can as often as they can. It's all any of us can do.
 
Love you back!

And Brat......I meant torture of innocent animals.... :blaugh:
 
To anyone who pratices the vegeterian or vegan lifestyle,i say go for it.The problem i have with PETA and other extremist groups is the moral superiority they assign to themselves.They win no freinds by their tactics for the most part,and alleniate people who might otherwise be sympathic or at least wiling to listen to their arguments.Again if i gave offence by any of my remarks i am sorry,there is no reason we cannot agree to disagree on this or any other issue and remain civil about it.
 
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