Here's a rant for ya

[PiedPiper]

I've been trying to do some serious stuff lately,.... and that necessarily means having to depend on other people in various capacities. The results of this have been terrifying.

In my professional work and yes, in my social life, too, I come in contact with bankers and business people,... contractors,.. social workers,... other college teachers (yeah, I'm one of them),... and especially a lot of high school teachers. Here's the terrifying part.

Ninety percent of them are so stupid that I wouldn't trust them to feed my dog if I was away for the weekend. Think about that for a minute. I've met high school English teachers whom I consider to be functionally illiterate,.... building contractors who can't add two-plus-two,.. and the non-profit social worker crowd are the most vacuous and irresponsible SOB's on the planet,... plus they are almost universally crooked. The smartest guy I know drives a bus.

What has happened to us?

 

[kis123]

I don't mean to laugh at your experiences, but I've been asking myself the exact same questions lately.

Well if you think you're dealing with incompetence, try working around lawyers.......dear God! I think they get their BAR cards out of a Kellogg's box! No way could they have possibly passed the BAR on their own unless the test is spiked! I can't say this about all lawyers, but the ones I've dealt with are the most incompetent and socially screwed up people I've ever dealt with.

I also work with a lending company as an independent contractor. My "boss" did not know there is a marked difference between an independent contractor and an employee.....he's my friggin' boss for the love of Pete!! And all of them are just........I can't even find a word to describe the level of un-professionalism and incompetence I experience on a daily basis! At least once a week I'm ready to quit and it's only been since January!

Needless to say, I am looking at other alternatives before I end up catching a case.......

 

[Bohemianne]

Armageddon is getting close.

 

[Jagermeistered]

I think critical thinking should be a mandatory in our schools and colleges, but there is not a whole lot of teachers left to teach critical thinking.

 

[PiedPiper]

I think critical thinking should be a mandatory in our schools and colleges, but there is not a whole lot of teachers left to teach critical thinking.

This is simultaneously a great observation and has me rolling in the aisle. I once did a guest visitor thing at a high school,... discussing well-known one act plays. Nathaniel Hawthorne,.... Mark Twain,... and Edgar Allen Poe. The English Dept faculty head explained to me that she was not familiar with any of these authors. It may have been the most horrifying moment of my life.

 

[Jagermeistered]

This is simultaneously a great observation and has me rolling in the aisle. I once did a guest visitor thing at a high school,... discussing well-known one act plays. Nathaniel Hawthorne,.... Mark Twain,... and Edgar Allen Poe. The English Dept faculty head explained to me that she was not familiar with any of these authors. It may have been the most horrifying moment of my life.

Well, "engrish" departments in schools and academia has always been in decline for years. These horrifying folks try to rely on fallacious technocratic "progress," and they forget the growth and beauty(epistemology) of language. Language is not only a social science, but also art - like the authors you mentioned. They maybe old, but they still have artistic value... Most "neo-teachers"(of 'engrish') offer nothing of entertainment or value...

 

[milagros317]

This does not surprise me. English teachers in high school now know nothing about clasical literature, 19th century literature, or English grammar. They know about making students feel good about themselves.

And, I might add, hgh school math teachers know almost no mathematics at all. But they also know about how to make students feel good about themselves. It is a crime in a high school today to have a student with low self esteem.

 

[Bothersome]

Well, for starters, our public school system is absolute rubbish.

They spend half of your school career teaching you shit that you aren't likely to use. Ever. I took Calculus in my junior year, and I'm still waiting for the scenario when I apply any of what I learned. Most of it was just wasted time, as I simply forgot a great deal of it on the spot, and the rest of it just sort of fizzled out due to lack of use of the knowledge. Physical Education? I didn't learn a damn thing from that class. My health class that I took for one year taught me more about physical education than my phys ed. class taught me over the period of 8+ consecutive years. The only thing I learned from physical education was that I suck at sports.

They need to alter the system to teach you things that you're likely to use straight out of high school. I'm not going to use calculus when working a cash register, and I'm not going to use Chemistry at all unless I decide to start cooking meth.

College is where those types of classes should be taught. Instead, kids spend twelve years absorbing information that simply isn't ever going to apply to them. They should get a solid foundation in the basic subjects like Math, English, Science, et cetera, and that foundation should be reinforced and added to over the course of elementary, junior, and high school. That way, when they get to college, they have a sturdy foundation upon which the professors can add to. As it stands, those poor saps have a half-assed foundation with a stack of potentially-useless information eroding and weighing it down.

Business Math was probably the most useful class I ever took in highschool, and it was essentially just a glorified accounting class.

 

[Jagermeistered]

This does not surprise me. English teachers in high school now know nothing about clasical literature, 19th century literature, or English grammar. They know about making students feel good about themselves.

And, I might add, hgh school math teachers know almost no mathematics at all. But they also know about how to make students feel good about themselves. It is a crime in a high school today to have a student with low self esteem.

Numbers and interpretation(of language), used to be fun! That is all gone for the most part...

 

[Jagermeistered]

Well, for starters, our public school system is absolute rubbish.

They spend half of your school career teaching you shit that you aren't likely to use. Ever. I took Calculus in my junior year, and I'm still waiting for the scenario when I apply any of what I learned. Most of it was just wasted time, as I simply forgot a great deal of it on the spot, and the rest of it just sort of fizzled out due to lack of use of the knowledge. Physical Education? I didn't learn a damn thing from that class. My health class that I took for one year taught me more about physical education than my phys ed. class taught me over the period of 8+ consecutive years. The only thing I learned from physical education was that I suck at sports.

They need to alter the system to teach you things that you're likely to use straight out of high school. I'm not going to use calculus when working a cash register, and I'm not going to use Chemistry at all unless I decide to start cooking meth.

College is where those types of classes should be taught. Instead, kids spend twelve years absorbing information that simply isn't ever going to apply to them. They should get a solid foundation in the basic subjects like Math, English, Science, et cetera, and that foundation should be reinforced and added to over the course of elementary, junior, and high school. That way, when they get to college, they have a sturdy foundation upon which the professors can add to. As it stands, those poor saps have a half-assed foundation with a stack of potentially-useless information eroding and weighing it down.

Business Math was probably the most useful class I ever took in highschool, and it was essentially just a glorified accounting class.

Actually, intelligence can be positive; but, who do you rely upon: the State or marketplace?

 

[kurchatovium]

The problem is I think we are reaping what we have sowed. We have stopped teaching basics like geography, grammar, literature, math, reading, etc at the levels they use to be taught. As a consequence we have a bunch of people becoming teachers that dont know the stuff they should teaching the next generation. Thus we create the next generation of even more unqualified teachers. Kids cant tell you where Mexico is. Kids have no idea about the basic laws of thermodynamics. We are way behind the rest of the world and it looks like it wont be getting better anytime soon.

 

[Bothersome]

The problem is I think we are reaping what we have sowed. We have stopped teaching basics like geography, grammar, literature, math, reading, etc at the levels they use to be taught. As a consequence we have a bunch of people becoming teachers that dont know the stuff they should teaching the next generation. Thus we create the next generation of even more unqualified teachers. Kids cant tell you where Mexico is. Kids have no idea about the basic laws of thermodynamics. We are way behind the rest of the world and it looks like it wont be getting better anytime soon.

To be fair, I think knowing where Mexico is and knowing the laws of Thermodynamics are two fairly non-comparable things.

Nobody is likely to walk up to you and ask you to recite the laws of thermodynamics. Nor is the aforementioned memorization of those laws likely to be of any practical advantage outside of several schools of study. Knowing where Mexico is is fairly practical, all around.

 

[kurchatovium]

To be fair, I think knowing where Mexico is and knowing the laws of Thermodynamics are two fairly non-comparable things.

Nobody is likely to walk up to you and ask you to recite the laws of thermodynamics. Nor is the aforementioned memorization of those laws likely to be of any practical advantage outside of several schools of study. Knowing where Mexico is is fairly practical, all around.

There was a time in a galaxy far far away when people knew both.

Here is the simple version of three laws as stated by Issac Asimov.

You cant win, You cant break even. You cant get out of the game.

See not all that complicated. Not as fancy minus the all the high falutin math and stuff but there ya go. It can be taught. It should be taught. It is likely to be one of the few things in science unlikely to change a 1000 years from now. This is just one reason why its important.

Knowing where Mexico is or not wont likely affect the universe much for that matter. Anyway the point here isnt whats more important then the other but rather not enough is taught now. Ask a kid from Singapore about the 3 laws he probably rattle them off with the calculus in it as well. Thats the real point here.

 

[Captain Satan]

Have to agree with you. A lot of teachers I've had, from primary school up to university, have suffered from terminal idiocy as well as some issues that make a serious case for anger management. I once had a German teacher who threw a fit in a supermarket over the price of something. He made a massive scene in front of everyone, fuming from the ears and screaming like a lunatic. He was ejected and barred from the supermarket and is to this day.

These are the people we have entrusted with the next generation.

 

[Bothersome]

There was a time in a galaxy far far away when people knew both.

Here is the simple version of three laws as stated by Issac Asimov.

You cant win, You cant break even. You cant get out of the game.

See not all that complicated. Not as fancy minus the all the high falutin math and stuff but there ya go. It can be taught. It should be taught. It is likely to be one of the few things in science unlikely to change a 1000 years from now. This is just one reason why its important.

Knowing where Mexico is or not wont likely affect the universe much for that matter. Anyway the point here isnt whats more important then the other but rather not enough is taught now. Ask a kid from Singapore about the 3 laws he probably rattle them off with the calculus in it as well. Thats the real point here.

Question: Is it more important to be taught arbitrary knowledge that you may use, or have practical knowledge that you're guaranteed to use reinforced into your skull? (Note that this is purely for High School. Not College.)

I've never used Calculus outside of school. Ever. That kid from Singapore may be able to rattle off Calculus at me, but that doesn't equip you for working a cash register any more than having an intimate knowledge of horse anatomy would. Higher knowledge like that should be reserved for higher learning. Not everyone goes to college, and teaching those people Calculus is simply a massive waste of time. They gain nothing from it. They'd benefit far more from having things like Geometry and Algebra reinforced into their long-term memory. They're much more likely to use those in a practical manner.

I knew a girl who aced my pre-calculus class, but thought that Pluto had been re-classified as a Dwarf Planet because it no longer orbited the sun. I think there are bigger gaps in her education that needed to be attended to.

 

[Amnesiac]

My own personal conspiracy theory is that mediocre people with little intelligence but substantial social skills have banded together in a sinister fraternity to undermine meritoriousness in order to prevent them from becoming the wage slaves most of us are. But I have no proof of this.

Then Again...

But fundamentally, we're a society that gets by on being busy and avoiding delays. Most of the problems with idiotic behavior is that it gets defended very vigorously, no more so than by the people who work diligently but unconvincingly to convince us they're not idiots.

What was that question again? I don't think I quite heard it the first time...

Case in point: my boss is the most irresponsible person I have ever met in my entire fucking life. Even the bi-polar coke addict and homeless banjo player friends of mine are more responsible than he is. He's a pathological liar, a very creepy sexual harasser, and a gun nut who does shoddy work. And yet getting rid of this guy has been a Sisiphean task for over 2 years. Mostly because 1) he's there and 2) his boss is just as bad as he is and 3)...profit? I have no clue. But every effort made to get rid of him has only brought down rebuke from corporate and infighting. We've lost good employees and opened ourselves up to lawsuits by keeping him around. But for some reason, his presence serves some kind of purpose I know not what and most of it seems to point to a large-scale prevalence of corruption by selfish, irresponsible people like him. Likely it's because he and the higher-ups are in something deep and nobody can risk upending the apple cart.

Like so many other things, I suspect that the traditional human habit of getting settled combined with the uniquely American Protestant Work Ethic has combined to create that legendary confluence of catastrophe called the unintended consequence. In this case, once we got ourselves established as a nation, we got it in our heads that we had it figured out and wouldn't have to change things. As time went on, we kept making small adjustments to the criteria and curricula, but never approached major renovations because of the sheer investment up front. It's easy to suggest new metal detectors and new computers in schools because the money its an equipment problem with no hidden costs and an immediate effect. Changing how the system works requires so much fucking money that everyone needed to collaborate on it doesn't want to take the risk.

Like this but...more.

And so rather than fixing things to go with the tide, the systems just started dropping features and leaving a husk where a functional body once stood. So that post-War education system that was supposed to produce a new generation of alcoholic lawyers, accountants, doctors, and golf caddies to service them fell victim to the illusion of permanence and as a result, nobody suspected what would happen over time if you merged a competitive job market with a very efficient education system during the biggest economic and population boom in American history.

George asked in between vodka tonics while going over the curriculum proposal.

So when the jobs went overseas, the vocational classes dropped out, leaving elective-only curricula designed for general summary education of a technician class that now had no market. Then the social revolt ruined the organized progress of social reform and created a HUGE drug market and welfare state that ruined the psychological and emotional stability for most of the population. Then the self-esteem movement figured out that beating a child for getting B's was less constructive than fostering positive-reinforcement to encourage investment in education...and then failed to actually give them the autonomy to actually accomplish things worth being positive about. All this kind of comes to a head in the late 80s when college enrollment is so fucking high that colleges have to start dialing up the admission requirements to filter people out so the world didn't run out of literate janitors and started scrutinizing people in kindergarten.

I guess those extracurriculars DO make a difference...

From here, you have helicopter parents, increased bureaucracy, no formal job education, and the replacement of the professional sector with the service industry and voila...you have a nation full of undereducated people who have been taught to do, not to think, and how to utilize the institution to get ahead.

And this. Those are guys, by the way.

Those naturally gifted with scheming, manipulation, and general bullshitting became the underclass version of the upperclass 1% who make a living by exploiting the sincerity of honest people through ruthless ambition and indifference.

Once their population reached critical mass, they and their worldview became the standard by which everyone has to compete and merit became nearly obsolete. The right credentials and connections became more important than the sharpest minds and the emphasis on busywork ensured that nobody could afford to take the time out to make changes. Just like school and work, nobody can slow down the machine. Kinda like how I can't risk losing my job by trying to get rid of my boss. Sure, everyone would benefit in the long-run, but that short-term inconvenience is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO intolerable.

It's like Animal Planet: you don't see piranha eating each other.

 

[PiedPiper]

Do you think you covered the subject? All you need to know can be expressed in three words,.... "Dunning-Kruger Effect" Look it up,....... that's what computers are for.

 

[kurchatovium]

Question: Is it more important to be taught arbitrary knowledge that you may use, or have practical knowledge that you're guaranteed to use reinforced into your skull? (Note that this is purely for High School. Not College.)

I've never used Calculus outside of school. Ever. That kid from Singapore may be able to rattle off Calculus at me, but that doesn't equip you for working a cash register any more than having an intimate knowledge of horse anatomy would. Higher knowledge like that should be reserved for higher learning. Not everyone goes to college, and teaching those people Calculus is simply a massive waste of time. They gain nothing from it. They'd benefit far more from having things like Geometry and Algebra reinforced into their long-term memory. They're much more likely to use those in a practical manner.

I knew a girl who aced my pre-calculus class, but thought that Pluto had been re-classified as a Dwarf Planet because it no longer orbited the sun. I think there are bigger gaps in her education that needed to be attended to.

Inherently you have hit on the part of the problem. People deciding what they need to know before they know enough to know what they may or may not need. Perhaps being older I have come to appreciate a lot of stuff I did not know I would use or just simply appreciate knowing it. The poetry of TS Elliot for example comes to mind. William Shakespeare plays that at the time of my youth were god awful to suffer through LOL. Now I have a better grasp of what they mean. There is an old Russian joke that goes. "When I was young lad my father was quite dumb now that I am older I see how much he has learned since then." Bottom line is I think its hard to know exactly what you will or will not need. I think the education process should touch on many things but emphasize the basics. That of course begs the question what is or is not important enough to be considered basic. Geography, math, science, history, grammar, and literature would seem to be up there. But how much math? What sciences? What literature? Its a question we will likely always be debating. We need to do better though that much is clear.

Well I would hope you strive to be more that a person working a cash register for a career. Education should teach you enough so that you have as many good options as possible. If you havent been exposed to any poetry you might not ever know how much you like it. If you learn no Calculus careers in Engineering or Science may not be available to you.

Since you are giving examples let me give you one. My cousin adores meteorology. Sadly he never learned any math. He knows the bare basics of course but not any algebra or calculus. He found out meteorologists need to know lots of math. By the time he found out it was a bit late to go back. A career he would have loved is now not an option. Education is like a train if you are not there when it comes to the station it will leave you behind.

 

[Bothersome]

Inherently you have hit on the part of the problem. People deciding what they need to know before they know enough to know what they may or may not need. Perhaps being older I have come to appreciate a lot of stuff I did not know I would use or just simply appreciate knowing it. The poetry of TS Elliot for example comes to mind. William Shakespeare plays that at the time of my youth were god awful to suffer through LOL. Now I have a better grasp of what they mean. There is an old Russian joke that goes. "When I was young lad my father was quite dumb now that I am older I see how much he has learned since then." Bottom line is I think its hard to know exactly what you will or will not need. I think the education process should touch on many things but emphasize the basics. That of course begs the question what is or is not important enough to be considered basic. Geography, math, science, history, grammar, and literature would seem to be up there. But how much math? What sciences? What literature? Its a question we will likely always be debating. We need to do better though that much is clear.

Well I would hope you strive to be more that a person working a cash register for a career. Education should teach you enough so that you have as many good options as possible. If you havent been exposed to any poetry you might not ever know how much you like it. If you learn no Calculus careers in Engineering or Science may not be available to you.

Since you are giving examples let me give you one. My cousin adores meteorology. Sadly he never learned any math. He knows the bare basics of course but not any algebra or calculus. He found out meteorologists need to know lots of math. By the time he found out it was a bit late to go back. A career he would have loved is now not an option. Education is like a train if you are not there when it comes to the station it will leave you behind.

I think we can take a pretty good guess as to what a high school graduate will use straight out of high school.

There is no entry level job out there that requires calculus. There simply isn't. No employer is going to hire a degree-less 18 year old to do complicated, high-end mathematical equations. He's going to hire him to check how much change a customer owes him, which MIGHT include multiplication or division every now and then. That's pre-algebra math.

Careers in Engineering and Science usually require a degree of some sort. Degrees require going to college for those specific fields of study. If you've gone to college, then you'll pick up Calculus. They aren't going to give you a degree in engineering without teaching you the necessary tools for the job. I'm talking about what they teach in High School. Will I need to have an intricate knowledge of quantum physics to take stock of inventory in a retail warehouse? Pretty unlikely. Most, if not all entry level employment requires very little schooling at all, to be honest. Nonetheless, we should make sure that our graduates have a firm foundation on the basic subjects that they'll need, and not fill their heads with garbage that they'll never use.

If they plan on going to college straight out of high school, that's another situation entirely. There are already running start programs in high schools that allow students to enroll in college early, and take pre-college requisite classes such as calculus. We already have programs that fit specific situations like that, so there's no need to stress over fitting knowledge like that into a typical high school education.

As for your cousin, Algebra is a subject that you're introduced to well before middle school. He should have at least a basic knowledge of that out of high school. If he didn't, then all the more reason for us to re-work the system to teach basic subjects like algebra with more force. As for calculus, there are a lot of colleges that have pre-college courses for people that didn't learn college in High School. Almost all community colleges have programs like that. Pre-calculus and calculus should be learned in those courses.

 

[kurchatovium]

I think we can take a pretty good guess as to what a high school graduate will use straight out of high school.

There is no entry level job out there that requires calculus. There simply isn't. No employer is going to hire a degree-less 18 year old to do complicated, high-end mathematical equations. He's going to hire him to check how much change a customer owes him, which MIGHT include multiplication or division every now and then. That's pre-algebra math.

Careers in Engineering and Science usually require a degree of some sort. Degrees require going to college for those specific fields of study. If you've gone to college, then you'll pick up Calculus. They aren't going to give you a degree in engineering without teaching you the necessary tools for the job. I'm talking about what they teach in High School. Will I need to have an intricate knowledge of quantum physics to take stock of inventory in a retail warehouse? Pretty unlikely. Most, if not all entry level employment requires very little schooling at all, to be honest. Nonetheless, we should make sure that our graduates have a firm foundation on the basic subjects that they'll need, and not fill their heads with garbage that they'll never use.

If they plan on going to college straight out of high school, that's another situation entirely. There are already running start programs in high schools that allow students to enroll in college early, and take pre-college requisite classes such as calculus. We already have programs that fit specific situations like that, so there's no need to stress over fitting knowledge like that into a typical high school education.

As for your cousin, Algebra is a subject that you're introduced to well before middle school. He should have at least a basic knowledge of that out of high school. If he didn't, then all the more reason for us to re-work the system to teach basic subjects like algebra with more force. As for calculus, there are a lot of colleges that have pre-college courses for people that didn't learn college in High School. Almost all community colleges have programs like that. Pre-calculus and calculus should be learned in those courses.

So are we training everyone to be entry level people? There is nothing wrong with any job that is honest work but I must say I am bit worried that you seem occupied with entry level jobs. I think especially at the HS level its important to make kids feel the whole world is open to them. That requires a vigorous curriculum. I suppose you are right though if all anyone aspires too is washing tables at McDonalds then you dont even need to know any history, geography, grammar. By the way I am not just pushing Calculus here I am just supporting a general agenda. Actually I never took calculus at HS I was very sick in Junior High and missed a lot of schooling so I could only get up to Algebra. It caused me lots of problems in College since I needed to take a bunch of math to catch up and that slowed down the chemistry and physics courses I could take. I guess if one is determined one can make up almost anything. Maybe thats something that missing these days is determination. Maybe thats a bigger part of the problem and kids are just too apathetic.

My cousin took no algebra it was not required at that time but thats school in my era not yours. and you need some calculus to be a meteorologist cause you need to know some physics.

 

[Bothersome]

Here's the thing: High School doesn't prepare you for non-entry level jobs. It never has, and it probably never will. That's what college and on-the-job training is for.

High School teaches you the necessary skills to function in the world. Those skills include a basic understanding on most subjects. College is where the finer points of education start being introduced. The specific skills that you use in professions like meteorology or chemistry or biology or physics are taught in college, and not in High School. Sure, everyone should have a basic knowledge on those fields prior to graduating High School, but a basic knowledge won't earn you a degree in any of those fields. For that, you need to go to college and learn about the specific advanced portions in each of those schools of study.

Why teach someone calculus if calculus is only used in specific jobs? That's the question that's being asked, here. The most important thing we can do with our preciously limited educational funding is ensure that it's used efficiently. That means that we cannot afford to teach people subjects that they aren't guaranteed to use in the world, and that aren't considered basic knowledge.

The cost of teaching someone a skill like advanced physics is that we lost time that could have been used to teach him how to understand the symptoms of a heart attack, or how to do his taxes, or how to correctly calculate change. These are skills that a frightening amount of high school graduates do not have. They're also skills that you are very likely to need at one point in your life, if not guaranteed.

High School needs to be about preparing kids for what they are definitely going to face straight out of high school. Taxes, and minimum wages jobs are two things that they're going to face. Knowledge in nuclear astrophysics is not.

 

[kurchatovium]

Here's the thing: High School doesn't prepare you for non-entry level jobs. It never has, and it probably never will. That's what college and on-the-job training is for.

High School teaches you the necessary skills to function in the world. Those skills include a basic understanding on most subjects. College is where the finer points of education start being introduced. The specific skills that you use in professions like meteorology or chemistry or biology or physics are taught in college, and not in High School. Sure, everyone should have a basic knowledge on those fields prior to graduating High School, but a basic knowledge won't earn you a degree in any of those fields. For that, you need to go to college and learn about the specific advanced portions in each of those schools of study.

Why teach someone calculus if calculus is only used in specific jobs? That's the question that's being asked, here. The most important thing we can do with our preciously limited educational funding is ensure that it's used efficiently. That means that we cannot afford to teach people subjects that they aren't guaranteed to use in the world, and that aren't considered basic knowledge.

The cost of teaching someone a skill like advanced physics is that we lost time that could have been used to teach him how to understand the symptoms of a heart attack, or how to do his taxes, or how to correctly calculate change. These are skills that a frightening amount of high school graduates do not have. They're also skills that you are very likely to need at one point in your life, if not guaranteed.

High School needs to be about preparing kids for what they are definitely going to face straight out of high school. Taxes, and minimum wages jobs are two things that they're going to face. Knowledge in nuclear astrophysics is not.

High School should prepare you to be a complete person not just to work at a cash register. I am not talking about teaching quantum astrophysics or nuclear astrobiology. I am talking about teaching math, science, literature, geography, grammar. So kids know how to speak and write and have good backgrounds to be whatever they wish to be. It aint all that complicated. You dont need to be Stephen Hawking out of HS but you do need a good education to do well in life. It does make things easier. I guess we will just have to disagree.

 

[Bothersome]

High School should prepare you to be a complete person not just to work at a cash register. I am not talking about teaching quantum astrophysics or nuclear astrobiology. I am talking about teaching math, science, literature, geography, grammar. So kids know how to speak and write and have good backgrounds to be whatever they wish to be. It aint all that complicated. You dont need to be Stephen Hawking out of HS but you do need a good education to do well in life. It does make things easier. I guess we will just have to disagree.

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that they SHOULD have an education in the basics of all of those subjects.

To get that, we need to cut out the advanced portions of other subjects, such as calculus. You do not need calculus in your repertoire of skills to be a complete and educated human being. That is not an essential skill of life.

A good education consists of a basic understanding in most fields. Teaching kids advanced math like calculus for no good reason simply reduces the time we have to give them an adequate understanding of things like grammar and literature, and it's showing. Have you seen the literacy rate in this country? It's miserable.

 

[kurchatovium]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that they SHOULD have an education in the basics of all of those subjects.

To get that, we need to cut out the advanced portions of other subjects, such as calculus. You do not need calculus in your repertoire of skills to be a complete and educated human being. That is not an essential skill of life.

A good education consists of a basic understanding in most fields. Teaching kids advanced math like calculus for no good reason simply reduces the time we have to give them an adequate understanding of things like grammar and literature, and it's showing. Have you seen the literacy rate in this country? It's miserable.

Ahhhhhhhh ok gotcha. Sorry. I suppose I should have taken up more reading skills in HS. LOL

I think the advanced stuff should be left in. It does not need to be mandatory though. I can tell you it really really screwed me up not having Calculus in HS but thats me.

The crux of the problem is what is too advance. Sometimes you need to know a bit about something before you know its not for you or if its something you really like. That what I am saying even with literature. I hated the Shakespeare stuff. At the time I would have said what you said it is useless in real life. I think though now in retrospect it made me a better person, more well rounded. Other countries seem to accomplish this. Their students out perform ours in all subjects. I dont know what the answer is. Maybe in part todays kids are too apathetic about their life and their careers.

 

[Bothersome]

Ahhhhhhhh ok gotcha. Sorry. I suppose I should have taken up more reading skills in HS. LOL

I think the advanced stuff should be left in. It does not need to be mandatory though. I can tell you it really really screwed me up not having Calculus in HS but thats me.

The crux of the problem is what is too advance. Sometimes you need to know a bit about something before you know its not for you or if its something you really like. That what I am saying even with literature. I hated the Shakespeare stuff. At the time I would have said what you said it is useless in real life. I think though now in retrospect it made me a better person, more well rounded. Other countries seem to accomplish this. Their students out perform ours in all subjects. I dont know what the answer is. Maybe in part todays kids are too apathetic about their life and their careers.

Okay, that's fair enough. If we want to leave those courses in as optional, that's okay. It would give students going into fields of studies that include those courses a head start over other students in college, at any rate.

Personally, I think that all knowledge is good knowledge. In a perfect world, we'd be able to stuff kids with as much information on every subject imaginable for free. Unfortunately, that's not the case. We have a very limited amount of time, and a very, very limited budget. We have to decide which skills the average kid is most likely to use, and reinforce those skills the most.

The other countries also have different school schedules than us. I know that Japanese schools have half-days on Saturdays. Over the course of a decade, those half days add up. They also don't have summer vacations for as long as we do.