Historical Tickle Torture: Quest for Evidence

[MTJpub]

From the MTJ Readers section...

The Quest For Evidence

By Anonymous

I have often read of tickle torture being used in fiction on ancient Roman prostitutes or slaves, as referred to in the excellent story "White Tickle Slavers" by Greenfeather, and of its supposed use in ancient China as reported by Marco Polo. However I have never run across an actual historical reference to its use.

Trips to the library and searching the net have resulted in no tickle torture references. The closest I have come was in a small paperback, obtained at a Barnes & Noble, entitled "Rack, Rope and Red Hot Pincers". In this book, the author refers to a torture used in ancient France called "The Goat’s Tongue". The victim (gender is not specified but I certainly hope female victims were preferred) is tied to a wooden bench and the bare feet soaked with brine. A goat is then brought in and allowed to lick the salty water from the feet. As the salty water was licked off, more was brushed on so as to encourage the goat to keep on licking. The effect of this raspy tongue seeking to satisfy its craving for salt and lick as much of the salt from the feet as possible caused the "initial giggles to soon give way to howls of agony". This may, in fact, be an actual reference to tickle torture. But it could also

be construed as a reference to torture in the same vein as Chinese water torture whereby water is dropped from a height for a long period of time on the same place such as the head or stomach. The goat’s tongue may have been effective only because of the irritating and continuous concentration of an activity on the same body area. Not a direct result of any unbearable tickling.

I have book on the history of the Spanish Inquisition, which includes its methods and procedures along with several pages depicting woodcuts and etchings of various torture methods being applied. In another book entitled "The Pleasures of the Torture Chamber", there are page after illustrated page of various methods of torture and the implements used to inflict them. I have read about and seen illustrations of victims being whipped, stretched on the rack, suspended from the ceiling with weights tied to their ankles as well as having their feet being roasted over burning coals, just to name a few. But no tickle torture.

The whole point is this: Was tickling an actual method of torture? If so, when, where, by whom and on whom. Where are the references to it and illustrations of it in historical literature? I would certainly like to believe it was used. Nothing would fuel my fantasy more that to learn that somewhere during the Dark Ages, women were dragged off to some dungeon, stripped naked and locked in stocks and actually subjected to having the soles of their feet tickled for whatever reason.

Whether as a form of punishment, or the extraction of a confession or information, or just because some king or other authority was like me and wanted to tickle torture beautiful naked women and had the power to do it. To know it actually took place is to legitimize nonconsensual tickling as a successful method of torture.

 

[Kujman1]

Historical vs. tickling fiction...

(the following is reposted from another thread, and is an abreviated, detailess version of what I've posted in the past... and for those of you who wish to keep your tickling-used-as-an-historical torture ideas and fantasies alive -which is very cool- I suggest you skip this entire thread and go on to another one... for those who seek historical truth rather than "I heard this..." theories, and we all can keep learning, please read on)


History VS. Folklore..........

Whenever there's a question about tickling in historical perspective, I usually get about 5 gazillion emails about it. This time was the exception- This time I got 6 gazillion.

Many, many times I've posted in the past about it's actual use in history- having to recreate it authentically took many years of going through moldy old libraries and Universites to find info.

Every time in the past I've given this warning: if you prefer for it to remain intact in your fantasy as an actual torture used whenever- the simply don't read further. It's probably better that you don't.

If you're based in real life situations and a stickler for historical truth, then theres references to it..... but as far as I can discover-after 25 years of actually seeking it- with the exception of the Chinese, it was never used as an actual specific torture or "assigned" punishment unto itself.


I'll simply say here that of course, we all know that ticklers existed back then too- some may have even been in positions of power where they could torture others as they wished... probably it did happen, but only in passing... just as many a victim was most assuredly raped too- but you don't hear about it or see it in history books about Inquisitions and such.

Goats were used in France, of course- and from actual experience (and not folklore) I can tell you that a goat's tongue is the most HORRIBLE tickling you can get- specially in public. But as for the brine/goats tongue issue- it wasn't for tickling, and had a more sinister reasoning. It was used to loosen the skin- make it wrinkle and puff up. The goats would lick util the skin literally ripped off. Ticklers always leave those parts out. Just like being tickled to death in Germany really meant having your ribs crushed soowly until you couldn't breathe, or water poured down your throat till you drowned. Thats the reality. 'Nuff said about that on this board, ok? No one here can handle s/m.

The rule would be this: people had hard lives back then, few shoes meant hard feet, worse than Fred Flintstone.. they never bathed (they thought it would make you unhealthy)... and with all those peasant farmers and hard working ladies barefoot in fields- I doubt few if any of them were ticklish, specially not on their feet.... and they were solid enough to take down Mike Tyson any day of the week most likely- ear biting and all.

So why would a tormentor, who prides himself on fast confessions, take such time to "tickle" when a hot iron or the rack could get the confession in 1/4 of the time and make him look terrific to his boss?

I'm sure there will forever be those that will insist it happened and they've heard about it or someone told them or whatever... but thats not reliable, nor proven... let them think what they want... it's not on the books, nor in the records... there's no pictures or drawings, and there's no one left from that era to really tell us. Except maybe Janet Reno.

So it boils down to believing what you want to, right?

Actually I would prefer this thread to be seperate so as not to mess up this cool folklore thread. If someone wants a new thread and starts it, we can go from there.

 

[MTJpub]

From the MTJ Readers section...

In the 1884 book, Vie Sahara, Jacques de Beaunay wrote of the treatment sheiks accorded unfaithful wives: " Sheep were slaughtered and a great feast was laid. ... The wretched creature [the unfaithful wife], who was surprisingly pretty, had been stripped well nigh naked. The attendants seated her in a high place, bound her, and then proceeded to tickle the soles of her feet with feathers. At first she laughed, a fearful, frightened laugh tinged with hysteria. &quote; The sheik and his guests, gorging themselves the while on rich foods, laid wagers on how long the doomed woman should survive the inhuman ordeal. & quote As hour after hour passed, the tickling of the woman's feet continued unabated. Gradually her uncontrollable laughter changed. It was a demonically thing! She writhed and squirmed in attempts to free herself, but her bonds held her fast. She screamed through her laughter, until, toward the end, she was seized with convulsions, and died shortly after. It was almost dawn .& quote

An article entitled &quote; Ticklishness is No Laughing Matter;, Popular Science, April, 1961, states that a Dr. Sandor S. Feldman of the University of Rochester Medical Center, NY, &quote ; speaks of people being tortured by tickling during religious persecutions in Cevennes, in Southern France, in 1760. Some of these may have been tickled to death--by being thrown into fatal convulsions or suffering a heart attack from the strain of the ordeal. &quote; It states that another authority " notes that many Roman gladiators died laughing--a reflex action from wounds in the abdomen, a touchy part of the body ."

An article in Esquire entitled &quote; All Right What is a Laugh, Anyway & quote; by Richard Selzer (July, 19??) states: & quote;If he does not stop [tickling], you may die of it. In medieval Germany, in Rotenburg an der Fulda, people did. There, in that place, prisoners were trussed in metal or leather to restrict expansion of the chest. Salt was rubbed on feet; goats were invited to lick it off. & quote;

In an article entitled &quote; The Biology of Laughter & quote; printed in Psychoanalytic Review (Summer, 1966), Joost A. M. Meerloo states: " The Romans used tickling as a cruel punishment. On the scaffold the soles of a victim's feet were covered with a salt solution so that a goat, attracted by the salt, would lick it off with his rough tongue and continually tickle the skin. By so doing, the salty skin was gradually rasped away. Then, the wounded skin would again be covered with the biting salt solution--ad infinitum, till the victim died from the torture .& quote; This article also provides further details on the physiological reasons why some people can die from prolonged fits of laughter.

In & quote; Psychology of Sex, & quote; Havelock Ellis quotes Prof. A. Allin & quote; On Laughter, &quote; Psychology Review (May, 1903): &quote; A number of instances have been recorded of death resulting from tickling, and there is no reason to doubt the truth of the statement that Simon de Montfort, during the persecution of the Albigenses, put some of them to death by tickling the soles of their feet with a feather .& quote;

The Little Book of Horrors, & quote; edited by Sebastian Wolfe and still published by Barricade Books, contains a supposed reprint of an old newspaper article, the headline of which is &quote; A WIFE DRIVEN INSANE BY HUSBAND TICKLING HER FEET. &quote; The text is as follows: &quote; On Thursday, last week, a very serious charge was preferred against a man named Michael Puck ridge... The circumstances ...are of a harrowing nature. It appears that Puck ridge who has

lived very unhappily with his wife, whose life he has threatened on more than one occasion. ... Mrs. Puck ridge, who is an interesting looking young woman, has for a long time suffered from varicose veins in the legs, her husband told her that he possessed an infallible remedy for this ailment. She was induced by her tormentor to allow herself to be tied to a plank, which he placed across two chairs. When the poor woman was bound and helpless, Puck ridge deliberately and persistently tickled the soles of her feet with a feather. For a long time he continued to operate upon his unhappy victim, who was rendered frantic by the process. Eventually she swooned, whereupon her husband released her. It soon became too manifest that her light of reason has fled. Mrs. Puckridge was taken to the workhouse where she was placed with the other insane persons. ... An inquiry was instituted and there is every reason to believe that Mrs. Puckridge had been driven out of her mind in the way described but the result of the investigation is not yet known. &quote; The article is accompanied by an Victorian style drawing illustrating this scene!

 

[solletik]

Tickle torture in the Russian courts

I once read an account of tickle torture used by the Russian czarina Catherine the Great, (who was originally from Germany), on one of her hand maidens. I can't recall exactly where though it may have been on Ticklegal's site... in any case the account sounded pretty genuine - a young girl was tied to a chair and publicly humiliated by having the soles of her feet tickled to the point of hysteria. The account rings truer if you consider the tickle torture scene in the 1960s comedy made about the czarina titled 'Catherine The Great' or even as a perhaps a curious historical reference in the film made of Tolstoy's 'Brothers Karamazov'.

Does anyone really know from a historical standpoint where any of this information came from and whther tickling was used as torture by the Russians in the 18th or 19th century... or did they simply get off on tying up girls and tickling them??!?

I offer this challenge to all you tickling historians out there, cheers, Solletik

 

[glentickle]

Ummm...not to quibble, but, Brothers Karamazov is Dostoevsky. But that's not the point. The point is the following excerpt:

"And I'm always like that, always like that. Always injuring myself with my politeness. Once, many years ago, I said to an influential person: 'Your wife is a ticklish lady,' in an honorable sense, of the moral qualities, so to speak. But he asked me, 'Why, have you tickled her?' I thought I'd be polite, so I couldn't help saying 'Yes,' and he gave me a fine tickling on the spot. Only that happened long ago, so I'm not ashamed to tell the story."

There's at least one other reference to tickling in the first fifty pages of the book, a much briefer one, and there may be many more after that but I just couldn't get into the story.

The story about Catherine of Russia I saw on a website several years ago. It involved a tickling punishment for one of the court ladies, who had flirted with some young Lord that Catherine had her eye on. The girl was tied down, and tickled for some hours; as the story goes, the Lords and Ladies gathered at court first found amusement at the spectacle, but as the tickling went on and on and the poor girl lost more and more of her composure, many who witnessed the sight began to feel more pity than enjoyment, and some were even distressed. The truth of this story, so far as I know, has not been established. But I believe there is good documentation to support the claim that Russian noblewomen would engage in a kind of foreplay, in which they would have their feet tickled by professional foot ticklers before going in to have sex with their husbands. Imagine having that job on your resume! Professional foot tickler...I've got ancestors from Russia, and I wonder sometimes whether my fetish (deviancy) has ancestral origins.

Any other thoughts floating around out there?

glen

 

[Longbaugh]

Intersting

In a book titled '2201 Fascinating Facts' by David Louis there is a section on executions. In mentions of a group of Christians in Bohemia who were very non-violent. When they were called opon by their government to perform executions they would tickle the individual to death. I beleave the were called the Morian brothers. I'm not sure if this is a true fact but still it is fascinating. I'll get the book in the near future and quote this section word for word (now I'm running on memory).

Also what Catherine The Great movie is solletik talking about were there is a tickle torture, what happens in that scene and were can this movie be found?

Thanks, Longbaugh

 

[MercilessOne]

Teh movie in question is I believe called, "Great Catherine" and was made in the 60's. The scene in question involves a British soldier who is tied up on the floor in front of Catherine who is in bed clothes and barefoot. She tells him that perhaps she'll use him as a foot stool and when she pokes him in his side with her foot he laughs hysterically and says, "I must ask you not to do that I'm quite ticklesome!' Well she procedes to tickle his ribs repeatedly with her bare toes sending him into agonizing laughter. A women comes rushing into the room who I believe is the man's girlfriend and demands to know what is going on. Catherine stands up and uses her barefoot to poke the poor guy causing more hysterical laughter. The angry woman says, "Is this what I thought was your being murdered?" Catherine replys that this was the favorite torture of Catherine the something or other. How many Catherines there were I don't know. I wouldn't begin to know where to get this movie. I've seen it once. Let the search begin!

MO

 

[Longbaugh]

Found Story

The story aout Catherine the Great having a women tickle tortured in her court is easy to find. Just go to the links on the TMF main page then go down to Funny Bone Stoy Box enter that site and click on true tickle tales. The story is near the top of the page.

 

[Kujman1]

Historical vs. Hysterical

All great information and posts thus far... and a really great effort! But being that posts about history get to be taken for truth all too often, innocently by newcomers....its about time I try to lend it some real perspective.....sad to say, all of these are just stories. Sorry to burst any bubbles. No evidence (other than the litte I've already posted about). Take it from one who has spent many years REALLY searching it out at Universities. I even had to have some Chinese translatsed for me at one point.

Still, great to see and read all the input, and it keeps us hoping! But don't take it for fact, guys. And this thread is about facts.

The problem is not of YOUR doing- so don't take it persnally. I took some of those things for fact myself in the early years. The REAL problem is that history has been blurred not only by today's fictional ticklers, but also in the fact that history itself changed as most of the news/facts of that era were only carried word of mouth- like the old game, tell a story at one end of the room, and by the time it gets to the other end it's all distorted.

EX: in Germany, it's often told people were tickled to death, Scotland too! Indeed they might be tickled (more often it was a term used for a light whipping- "tickled with the tip of a whip" was a common term, but do you consider that tickling?- it has nothing to do with tickling at all). And even in those instances when they were perhaps tickled in earnest- people ALWAYS leave out the fact they weren't actually tickled to death at all: while gasping for air, they had solid metal corsets cranked tight around their rib cage.... not only crushing and breaking their ribs, but sufficating them as well.

This also holds true for accounts where goats lick soles: though it was often called "tickled to death" IN THAT ERA, the victims didn't die from laughing OR tickling---- they drowned horribly as they had water poured down their throats and forced up their nostrils as they screamed from the goats TEARING the loosened flesh from brine soked soles. Their choice? None. If they inhale at all to scream or even breathe- they drown.

Now THOSE are facts. As horrid as they are. Nothing erotic or romantic about it.

Here's another- few people were ticklish. THINK ABOUT THIS ONE. They weren't a bunch of smooth, soft putz's like we are today. These were tough, calloused, muscular people... who walked all their lives in MOST cases without shoes, and had feet are hard as stone... who froze all night and sweat all day... who lifted heavy 100lb sacks all day long, and had muscle upon muscle on their ribs and everywhere... they wrestled live game to the ground for dinner, then carried it miles back home and cut it up.... they litfed stones all day, plowed fields by night...and these are just the WOMEN I'm talking about! I doubt many, if any, were sensitive.

Another problem is that people "spoke" very differently than they do today- a lingo we've had to learn for faires as well- many things have different meanings now. "Tickling" to them ISN'T what tickling is to a modern day fetish person.

For example: to cover up the fact she had many sexual lovers and sexual love affairs at night when others had gone to their rooms, a Queen let it be known that she had "professional ticklers" come to "massage" her.... this merely a lame cover up to what really took place lest anyone in the castle look upon her with shame (yeah, right, like they didn't already know!).

Another thing a wench-for-hire would often say to a passing strangers is "Fancy a tickle?"..... which meant, as I hope you already know, something entirely different.

Just as when they also call it "Fancy a tumble?"... they're not talking about jumping into hay bails or rolling down hills.

Of course if you're a Clintonion, then I'm sure you have another valid explanation.

Catherine the Great- another story/myth perpetuated by Hollywood in a movie. And as we all know, the movies never lie, right?

Look at it without tickle-colored glasses and you'll see this- She falls into the same category as the Queen does above, nothing more, nothing less. She was obsessed with getting older and because she needed to KNOW she was never going to age, she kept her sex life hoppin' thinking if she kept many youthful lovers that she herself would never age. It didn't work. AND it would be very distasteful for any Royal member to be involved in such a thing! But you gotta hand it to royalty for coming up with great "titles" for your secret lovers.

But if you have to believe that she and others used tickling- w/o a thought to themselves are their careers of course- and that stories you read online are indeed historical facts- then I also guess it's true to say that in this day and age we have our own Great Catherine: Prince Charles has had many "professionL ticklers" come to the Castle- ultimately bringing shame and scandle on the royal family. Now, if we didn't have TV, radio, and instant live coverage every second of the day as we do now... and we only had word of mouth... by the end of a year, imagine the ticklish stories that would have grown? Funny how often simple "tickling" causes so many secret pregnancies.

The other stories you hear about- hidden cults, monks, non violent or whatever- using "tickling to death" is either yet another cover up from history (because things were NOT written down), or just a fictional and exaggerated story- sometimes sadly taken as fact by even PROFESSORS, WRITERS, SCHOLARS, even DEAR ABBY!

Some final evidence to ponder-

There was a Professor who wrote in a book about a two years ago, that tickling was used as a means of death... and he also named some ficticious monk cult (or whatever, might even be the same things noted in above posts) that used it. I was thrilled! I thought finally some evidence had been unearthed by a Professor! He had a website, and so did his publisher, and all- so I wrote to him.... but I didn't use my "Kujman" screen name- I used my full professional show biz name and professional email. Nowhere was my "tickling personna" evident... nowhere was Kujman mentioned.

I simply and politely asked where he documented his information- so that I could verfy it for my own purposes and use it to enhance my renfaire act (which has to be authentic). It was a very simple request which would have been easy to fulfill- many authors- including myself- get them every day.

What I received back shocked both Tickegal and myself. An angry, defiant letter asking me how dare I ask such a thing and how dare I "question" his word (note: I had done neither- I was actually happy to have come across him until then)... furthermore, he was telling me that he in no way had to defend his book nor reveal where he got his information from. He said that he was a professor and that if HE said it, then it was to be taken as fact. He also said that he was sending my letter to his publisher and that if I was to dare and question his "athority", he would sue me. (ya, right- I'm shaking)

All that was enough to prove he was bogus- but what he did next REALLY proved it....

He slipped up in the last sentence in the letter. He said, "In the future, Mr. Kujman...." He had given himself away! There is no way he would know that name unless he was IN this community. I never mentioned it. He finished with "......I will not not respond to such requests by you or anyone".

Here is another example of how this crap gets started. Here was a "tickler", perhaps a closet tickler, who had MIS-used his status and trust as a Professor and author...... who merely took his information from the online tickling world. Imagine what he tells his students? This is totally dishonest and unjust to those that he teaches and those that read his book.

Yet all those people will take it for granted as HISTORY- every word he says- and then they pass it on. And so it goes.

I haven't mentioned his name yet- here's why:

He threatened me in mail, which is a big mistake (he's lucky he didn't do it in person). Had he been polite? I would have dropped the whole issue. But because he said he was handing over my mail to his publisher (thinking he would scare me away because he knew he had been caught)- to me thats a slap of the white glove across the kisser! Time for battle.

I took the mail I sent to him, and his mail to me, along with some basic facts in regards to his books (as well as some personal information about this tickling fetish) and bundled it all up and sent it off to his Publisher and his University. I wish I could have been there when he got the call.

I don't know what happened to him as far as his job- I hope nothing bad, and that he merely corrected his ways, especially in the light that some of those parents are paying $250,000 to send their kids to him and he's using "fetish folklore" as fact!.... however his University Webpage was dropped.

As for his publisher, they gave me the information I sought. He had based his information on an old Dear Abbey column...and a now defunct tickling website. When I pointed out what kind of site that was- they didn't believe me, at first... but I did get a nice letter from them about a month later thanking me for my information, and telling me that either the book wouldn't be renewed when the first run was finished, or that it would be corrected. They also dropped him (I was sorry to hear that because he was probably a good fictional writer). And a friendly warning from that publisher to MY publisher over lunch was that he might come after me for damages... which is why I won't state his name here at this time because he still has until next year to apply for any such action - though he'd be hanging himself if he did.

So that's history and how it gets screwed up.

 

[solletik]

Well done Kuj, I hope you taught the swine a lesson! And it's good to know that someone out there is still interested in the facts, but I guess I'm just another one of those romatics that lives on in the hope that 'the tickling truth is out there'...
Salutations, Solletik

 

[Haltickling]

My own research...

Thanks to Kujman for his history research, however disillusioning it may be. Nevertheless, as I made some similar researches on my own (many years ago), I have to contribute some of my own findings:

In the book 'Sacred Fire - The Story of Sex in Religion' by B.Z. Goldberg (published by Kessinger Publishing Company, Montana, USA), a turn-of-last-century tickle sect in Russia is mentioned: "A degree closer to violence is the custom of an even more recent sect called Ticklers. In their services, the males tickled the females so long that the latter fell into swoons. And as it was believed that each death added to the holiness of the service, no effort was exerted to revive the exhausted ones." I have no means on checking up on the authencity of this statement, but I used to know several young ladies in Russia (my business required about 20 trips there) who admitted that they loved tickling…

A friend from Austria had told me about a criminal incident involving tickling: Near Salzburg (at the Austrian-German border, about 100 miles from my home) was said to have been 'hanged from the neck until he dies' because he had tickled three wives to death. Whenever I was in this area, I rummaged through the old archives of the local communities, and finally I found what I had looked for: A courtroom protocol of the trial, where the accused had confessed these hideous crimes (between 1880 and 1910). He was buried in a small village cemetery near Salzburg, and his gravestone confirmed it (quote not verbatim): 'This man was hanged because he had tickled three wives until death'. I've seen this with my own eyes!

Kujman is only too right about the different meaning of 'tickling' in various ages. Tickling is 'Kitzeln' in German, and 'chatouiller' in French, and in both languages this word used to mean 'to titillate or arouse sexually' throughout the 18th and 19th century. Another linguistic curiosity: The 'clitoris' is called 'Kitzler' in German, which translates also as 'tickler'…

Enough room for fantasy though. Even though 'shtshekotat' (Russian for 'tickling') has been used in different meanings, Catherine the Great is quite often mentioned to have employed no less than 5 professional foot-ticklers ('shtshekotanchii') in her household. Court rumors also told that she was unable to reach the pinnacle without this additional stimulation (quite plausible as she had so many lovers). But this, too, may be a rumor spread by envious contemporaries…

 

[Steve]

Historical Tickle Torture

I have heard that in the 1970's Amnesty International issued a report saying that the secret police of the Spanish dictator Franco used prolonged rib tickling as a form of torture on female political prisoners. Supposedly the police didn't want to disfigure the members of the fairer sex so they found a torture that would work well without causing any bodliy harm. I guess this could be verified by somone who has the time to do the research by contacting Amnesty International.

 

[Kujman1]

Replies about history......

Even after all this time here, I'm continually amazed at the great and INTELLIGENT responses to posts that require and/or deserve such. (not referring to Howard Stern stuff now, lol)

A great way to sound off opinions and things you've heard over the years in this community, or read about- then compare them others of different persuations- and share info/facts rather than battle and flame over them- we get so much further. What a breath of fresh air as compared to the old days in the Newsgroups- Gentlemen I salute you all for your input pro and con. I really enjoy it and all you share. Finally I get to put some of my knowledge to good use too, AND perhaps learn some new things at the same time......

Solletic- I know what you mean... I too keep hoping, but after decades am content to believe what really was rather than stories. I never give up looking for proof though- so I guess that makes me a romantic as well.

Haltickling- Great info!! I had read Story of Sex in Religion and looked into many facets of it... knowing fully well that religion has ALWAYS found a way to cover up that dirty thing called "SEX" with much lighter whitewashed verions called "tickling". "He gave his wife a tickle" is much more acceptable to them than "He ____ her brains loose". Yet they both cover the same incident? wow

A close friend of mine in this scene married a girl from Russia when he met her there on business. She's great and has adapted to tickling so fast that it's scary- so there is great validity to your theory! As her English got better, all three of us would talk about tickling and history and various other things. One thing I brought up was that book and what it stated an she laughed. She openly admitted it was just another (I quote her) "ficmictious wording" for sex so that any religious member could get away with it. But she knew about it, and said it was common in Europe to use the word "tickling" or "tickle" in lieu of the word sex.. so again, this validates your theory as well as mine. I'm SURE there was some tickling- but not like we here would think of it- for it's overtones and and intentions were much sexier and perhaps seedier.

Along those lines, and in more modern times, a few years back a Priest was accused of molestng a young boy on the East Coast... and the courtroom trials record him calling it a "little tickling fun"- his term for doing you-know-what with a you-know-who. Interesting how times change so little. Only the MEDIA and instant coverage change.

The case in Germany I was familiar with only from hear-say, and honestly not from any actual research- so I defer to your judgement on that one. A really great friend and German tickling top named Peter (in NYC) lives six months here and six months in Germany... and he had told me about it. But he also told me that it was a very public trial. Because it was his LEGAL wives (and at that time women had little rights and were allowed to be beaten by husbands), and so that the female public in the courtroom wouldn't be "offended", they changed the vicious nature of his crime in name only (which in today's terms would be easily be called rape/murder, legal wife or not... for his wives all died from vaginal hemoraging- a strange side effect of tickling perhaps????). I suspect the truth lay in between somewhere.

All your info is great.


Steve- I've been a active member of Amnesty International (anyone can be active in it if they actually participate)... and I've actually looked into this side of it many times. Of course I've seen the bastinado in use in pictures... rape is common, so is electric shock, and other methods of torture, in real photos again... but never tickling. Nor any accounts of it. I know tickling writers love to write about it as common fact- hoping you'll take their word for it- but you'll have to decide for yourself what seems real to you and what doesn't. I've never actually seen anything from AI about it.

Now let me add to that in saying that I don't deny tickling may occur. It probably DOES happen, just as RAPE happens. 99% of the time it never gets reorted over there... Secret Police with that power can take a girl or guy and do whatever they want with them- sex, torture, beating, tickling, rape- including shooting them and dumping the body in the desert and NO one questions the Secret Police and their methods. BECAUSE it's not recorded nor is anyone open about it for fear of their lives. It's secret, thus the name. As for tickling information in AI- I've seen everything but.

 

[Blackstar216]

about that "professor"

Kuj, that dude might have been a tickler. But I'll be damned if he was a professor.
But here's the deal. You shouldn't have even had to write and ask where his info came from. Any writer of non-fiction must cite all literary sources or else, any claims of fact they make are simply heresay. Any such a claim would have had to be cited parenthetically or footnoted. And if that was the case, you would have simply had to look in the back of the book to find the source where you could check for yourself. If this claim of his was not cited in some manner, than you know for sure that his words carry no weight, no matter what his academic status. Which would bring me to the publisher. Either the publisher does childrens books only, or this book you read doesn't really exist. Not to be skeptical, but what was the title of this publication?

 

[Darkknight]

Egyptian Queen that was into tickling?

Excellent thread, definately different direction then a newgroup would go with it.

To Kuj,

You are very versed and knowledgable in the history of real
tickling evidence.

I wonder if you ever read a book (my first evidence of a tickling fetish ever! I think I was 15 when I found it in
the library) called, "The Sex relationship between the Foot and Shoe"? I believe that was the title and I can't remember
who wrote it!

I don't know how valid the Professor or Doctor who wrote the
book was but in one of the chapters he had mentioned that Queen "something"(I CAN NOT REMEMBER HER NAME) was recorded to have had special slaves that would oil her soles up and tickle her feet with feathers. This was to get her very aroused before having sex with her King (I guess it was him). He went on to say she had as many as 10 slaves tickling her feet sometimes. Geez, there's only so much sole to cover!

Of course I almost lost all the blood in my head and fell over after reading that. I also couldn't get up from my chair for a while. Damn teen hormones!

Anyway, I wish I could remember the author, I believe the book was written in the the early 70's.
Love to hear any opinion you have on the Egyptians with tickling. Not quite torture but it's history based.

p.s.- I tried to keep the book but the library called my house to tell me I was way over due. My sister had gotten the message. I told her it was for science class or something, thank God she never brought it up again!

Peace,
DK

 

[Haltickling]

Darknight, I presume you're talking about William A. Rossi's book 'The Sex Life of the Foot and Shoe'. It describes how noblewomen in Czarist Russia prepared for Sex with their husbands by having full-time staffs of eunuchs and women tickle their soles. It's full of delicious rumors, but this book seems to possess a vanishing curse: My copy got lost, too!

Kujman: The Austrian criminal case in question was mostly public. Because of this publicity, the judge ruled the exclusion of the audience when it came to details of the crime. The protocols I read were full of these details from a non-public hearing, and he DID TICKLE his three consecutive wives. He also had beaten them frequently, and the case came up when the doctor examining the corpse for the death certificate dicovered heavy bruises, but non of them could have caused death by itself.
The files were not accessible till after World War II.

 

[mabus]

Can't disprove Santa Claus

Kujman is right. I haven't done the research, but I trust his professional research. But that's life, people. The facts are always more boring than the supposed "real truth." We all want to believe in supernatural power, but most of it is fraud or delusion. I just visited a website yesterday about spirit photography. All the pictures shown were simply images that had been screwed up, by light, or cracks, or erors in development. If they were true, then my house is FULL of ghosts, as is my backyard and just about everywhere on Earth. DisneyWorld would be the ghost capitol of the world, with all the pictures (and screw ups) taken there! Area 51 is a test site for very secretive spy planes and military technology. Not UFO's. Period. If aliens were there, there would be no life on the planet. An alien creature would carry millions of completely foreign germs and surely release some inadvertantly into our atmosphere, which our bodies would have zero immunities. And our germs would kill THEM. So, no, aliens have enevr visited Erath. (But they MAY have!!) That may have is what perpetuates these beliefs. There was no way every event could have been recorded, exactly as happened, throughout all of hsitory, by honest observers. People lie, they fudge facts, they use language we don't use. If you could go back in time twenty years and use slang we use nowadays, they would look at you like you were a nut! (Watch Austin Powers 2 as an example..) Facts and skepticism are boring, cool but untrue things are simply more interesting.

Here's what I say: make up your own story, based on these myths. I intent to, and I will use this for an example of that Charity Tickling video concept I proposed. Make up that reality for our enjoyment! It would make a good video! Most of the events in Men in Black were bogus, and could be disproved - but man what an awesome movie!!

 

[on_storm]

Re: Historical vs. tickling fiction...

..... but as far as I can discover-after 25 years of actually seeking it- with the exception of the Chinese, it was never used as an actual specific torture or "assigned" punishment unto itself.

No evidence (other than the litte I've already posted about). Take it from one who has spent many years REALLY searching it out at Universities. I even had to have some Chinese translatsed for me at one point.

Also, From the MTJ Readers section...The Quest For Evidence By Anonymous

I have often read of tickle torture being used in fiction on ancient Roman prostitutes or slaves, ... and of its supposed use in ancient China as reported by Marco Polo. However I have never run across an actual historical reference to its use.

I have heard many times that the Chinese used tickling as a torture. Could somebody cite any books/sources on that? I can read Chinese and I would do some research into that.