Men wearing dresses as a fashion statement

[chicago]

I'd say maniac didn't single anyone out rather he offensively generalized a group of people. Which is worse is a determination best left to mods. I mean its been maniacs spiel for over a decade, though the quick tone change in his second response after Jeff chimed in is pretty telling.

 

[Hemmen]

I'd say maniac didn't single anyone out rather he offensively generalized a group of people. Which is worse is a determination best left to mods. I mean its been maniacs spiel for over a decade, though the quick tone change in his second response after Jeff chimed in is pretty telling.

Maybe so, but what group of people did he offensively generalize? Other than the OP's mention of Jaden Smith and some unnamed rappers, I still see no sign that men wearing dresses is even a thing. Unless there's more to it, it seems all this outrage is on behalf of hypothetical people.

As far as its being left to mods; if they let Wolf's unwarranted jab at Sensualswitch go unnoted, that would be pretty telling too.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

Maybe so, but what group of people did he offensively generalize? Other than the OP's mention of Jaden Smith and some unnamed rappers, I still see no sign that men wearing dresses is even a thing.

As I said it may catch on or not...who knows?

 

[chicago]

Maybe so, but what group of people did he offensively generalize? Other than the OP's mention of Jaden Smith and some unnamed rappers, I still see no sign that men wearing dresses is even a thing. Unless there's more to it, it seems all this outrage is on behalf of hypothetical people.

As far as its being left to mods; if they let Wolf's unwarranted jab at Sensualswitch go unnoted, that would be pretty telling too.

Lol if there was nothing wrong with what Maniac originally said, why did he soften upon reiterating it? Lol

We can go back and forth forever though.

Saying "its disgusting" is way different than saying "I find it strange" or "I don't agree with / like it". Maniac knows this, which is why he worded his response much differently the second time. I mean, I find a lot of people on here pretty gross, but it would do nothing but piss people off to express that in a public thread so venemously. Though, I'm pretty sure maniac relishes in doing just that.

And just because you are not aware of it being a trend does not mean it isn't, or that there aren't groups of men who do, who may even frequent this "flame free" forum...

 

[Sensualswitch10]

Hemmen, I truly appreciate you coming to my defense. Thank you for that. There's nothing I hate more than having to explain my own jokes.

Wolf, I accept your apology, I believe it was genuine and that you simply weren't paying attention to the username.

I've learned a couple things about this forum. Maniac is going to be course and abrasive. Wolf is going to huff and puff. Hemmen is going to defend free speech even when it's unpopular. The mods are going to have to make difficult judgement calls. Chicago is going to call out trollish comments.

I'm on here because I want to be connected to the people on this forum. We all share something that many of us cannot share with the people we are close with in the real world. I would prefer to be on friendly terms with all of you.

If I could quote the late Rodney King... Can we get along

 

[Hemmen]

Hemmen, I truly appreciate you coming to my defense. Thank you for that. There's nothing I hate more than having to explain my own jokes.

Wolf, I accept your apology, I believe it was genuine and that you simply weren't paying attention to the username.

I've learned a couple things about this forum. Maniac is going to be course and abrasive. Wolf is going to huff and puff. Hemmen is going to defend free speech even when it's unpopular. The mods are going to have to make difficult judgement calls. Chicago is going to call out trollish comments.

I'm on here because I want to be connected to the people on this forum. We all share something that many of us cannot share with the people we are close with in the real world. I would prefer to be on friendly terms with all of you.

If I could quote the late Rodney King... Can we get along

Here's a post we can all, hopefully, drink to.

 

[Hemmen]

Now that I've said that, I'm bowing out of the thread with this:

I have no problem with men (or women) wearing whatever they want. But I do have a big problem with would-be thought police and those who resort to bullying in the name of "tolerance." They might think they're being noble and enlightened, but repressing speech - even hateful or trollish speech - is neither of those things.

 

[Wolf]

Now that I've said that, I'm bowing out of the thread with this:

I have no problem with men (or women) wearing whatever they want. But I do have a big problem with would-be thought police and those who resort to bullying in the name of "tolerance." They might think they're being noble and enlightened, but repressing speech - even hateful or trollish speech - is neither of those things.

So, to sum up...you're insisting that people show tolerance to others that refuse to show tolerance to others.
No one's repressing anyone's speech. You are free to be as hateful and trollish as you like. Freedom of Speech (which technically doesn't even apply to a privately owned forum, but the Mods do their best to honor, it within reason) does not mean freedom from dissent.

 

[maniactickler]

I'd say maniac didn't single anyone out rather he offensively generalized a group of people. Which is worse is a determination best left to mods. I mean its been maniacs spiel for over a decade, though the quick tone change in his second response after Jeff chimed in is pretty telling.

I softened it up so people wont get their panties in a bunch. plus people seem to mistake my statements like I'm a monster. I can be brash, but I'm not hateful. if you cant deal with it, then people can go cry in their soup.

 

[Dussicar]

I swear....

If this thread ever gets locked, I'll kill myself.

TMF REPRESENT!!!

 

[DontAskJusTckle]

Now that I've said that, I'm bowing out of the thread with this:

I have no problem with men (or women) wearing whatever they want. But I do have a big problem with would-be thought police and those who resort to bullying in the name of "tolerance." They might think they're being noble and enlightened, but repressing speech - even hateful or trollish speech - is neither of those things.

Well said. Now Jeff and the moderators have the responsibility to repress overtly hateful speech. By the very nature of their job, they must occasionally show intolerance to those who aren't doing so. I can dig that, and I'm sure most on the forum can as well. But those of us who aren't moderators and hence don't have that responsibility? We don't get to play that card. And why would any of us want to except to say, "Hey everybody! Look at what a good, socially conscious person I am! I'm objecting to all the right things here! Love me more, please!"

So, to sum up...you're insisting that people show tolerance to others that refuse to show tolerance to others.

That's not even close to what's happening here. Again, Maniac's comments did not target any people, but rather a fashion statement.

But even if what you said was true, what's wrong with insisting that people who complain about intolerance need to show tolerance even to those who show none? Is it so much to ask that you hold yourself to the same standards you require of others? By refusing to do so, doesn't that speak of extreme hypocrisy?

 

[a7hgsir4h3jk]

Hey! Hey guys, look! What's that? Oh my stars, it's a distraction!
A distraction from what? A distraction from this argument!
Look, it's shiny and pretty and makes us all want to get along! Right?
Let's look at that instead!

I love you! Don't ever change! XD

 

[TMF Jeff]

But even if what you said was true, what's wrong with insisting that people who complain about intolerance need to show tolerance even to those who show none? Is it so much to ask that you hold yourself to the same standards you require of others? By refusing to do so, doesn't that speak of extreme hypocrisy?

That's called the "paradox of tolerance" or the "tolerance fallacy" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

 

[arachnid95]

I love you! Don't ever change! XD

Never in a million years, Smegs!

 

[DontAskJusTckle]

That's called the "paradox of tolerance" or the "tolerance fallacy" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."

Interesting food for thought from philosopher Karl Popper, to be sure. For me, it begs the question: Is it possible to disdain intolerance without hypocrisy? And if not, are the benefits of doing so worth enduring that unpalatable label? Now I've made it clear before, but it won't hurt to re-iterate. The principles I'm talking about apply to people interacting socially in general, not the rules of a private forum or venue where there is a legitimate vested interest in keeping said venue free of hostility.

What exactly do we mean when we say "intolerance?" When I consider that question, my thoughts are as follows. As a society, there is much we don't tolerate - murder, theft, rape, etc. I'm sure most would agree those are good things not to tolerate. So clearly we're not being specific enough when we say "intolerance" is bad, because obviously there are things towards which we need to be intolerant. Not only things, but I would even go so far as to say that there are certain people groups to which we need to be intolerant. People groups like felons, pedophiles, terrorists, etc.

Similarly, when we criticize somebody for being "intolerant," that also is too vague a criticism. It's what or who we don't tolerate that determines whether or not intolerance has value. If somebody's intolerant of laziness or prevarication, that's not such a bad thing. If they are intolerant of any particular skin color, ethnicity, or gender, most (myself included) agree that's uncool.

Once we realize that it isn't the whole of intolerance that's bad, but only certain specific applications of it, the whole problem of the hypocritical paradox disappears. We're now not disdaining all intolerance, merely certain applications of it.

Then there's the question of whether or not Maniac's comment even qualifies as intolerance in the first place. This thread was titled, "Men wearing dresses as a fashion statement." Maniac's two word response was "It's disgusting." Let's think about that a minute. To what or whom is Maniac objection? A particular fashion statement among men. That's all. It would be different if he said the behavior should be outlawed, or suggested it deserved some sort of punitive retaliation. That most certainly would have qualified as intolerance. But he didn't do that.

What Maniac expressed was not intolerance, but rather his own personal revulsion. Let's not confuse disapproval with intolerance, because they are not the same thing. A father can disapprove of his son's long hair (even to the point of revulsion) and yet still tolerate it.

Finally, I believe that as a community, we must ask ourselves this: Is it appropriate for community members to attack other members because they perceive statements as expressing intolerance? Or does it make more sense to reasonably voice disagreement, and then let the moderators decide if a boundary was crossed?

 

[Aeveirra]

...... Um, a fashion statement? What kind of "Statement", is this trying to make ?
Long hair and a piercing is very different from something like this. While it is just clothing, the "statement" I see here, is that a guy is comfortable enough with his masculinity to do something that would normally demean said masculinity.

I just don't see a reason for this... And it's certainly not going to "catch on".
If it did, it could cause problems. Mainly, gender confusion if younger/teen boys started doing this.
Its Just a bad idea.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

...... Um, a fashion statement? What kind of "Statement", is this trying to make ?
Long hair and a piercing is very different from something like this. While it is just clothing, the "statement" I see here, is that a guy is comfortable enough with his masculinity to do something that would normally demean said masculinity.

I just don't see a reason for this... And it's certainly not going to "catch on".
If it did, it could cause problems. Mainly, gender confusion if younger/teen boys started doing this.
Its Just a bad idea.

In the past. pants have been associated with men and dresses associated with women. Until....i think the eighties, women starting wearing pants so maybe the statement is men can wear dresses.

 

[Wolf]

In the past. pants have been associated with men and dresses associated with women. Until....i think the eighties, women starting wearing pants so maybe the statement is men can wear dresses.

The eighties? Women started wearing pants in the eighties?

C'mon...what country are you from? And were you in cryogenic stasis the whole time?

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

The eighties? Women started wearing pants in the eighties?

C'mon...what country are you from? And were you in cryogenic stasis the whole time?

I said I think the eighties. You really have it out for me don't you. Accusing me of stealing attention away from you. Always making remarks toward me. hmmmm interesting.

 

[Wolf]

I said I think the eighties. You really have it out for me don't you. Accusing me of stealing attention away from you. Always making remarks toward me. hmmmm interesting.

If you'd like me to stop pointing out when you're wrong, just say so.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

If you'd like me to stop pointing out when you're wrong, just say so.

Nope, do whatever helps you sleep at night and fills you with the confidence you need in the morning. I just think its hilarious.

 

[Wolf]

Nope, do whatever helps you sleep at night and fills you with the confidence you need in the morning. I just think its hilarious.

Yeah, I don't know if it's advisable for you to get personal about this. I'm generally happy with myself, so it'd be a wasted effort.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

Yeah, I don't know if it's advisable for you to get personal about this. I'm generally happy with myself, so it'd be a wasted effort.

Well as usual...I didn't start it. Look familiar.

The eighties? Women started wearing pants in the eighties?

C'mon...what country are you from? And were you in cryogenic stasis the whole time?

 

[Wolf]

Well as usual...I didn't start it. Look familiar.

That was a joke. I don't really think you were in cryogenic stasis.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

That was a joke. I don't really think you were in cryogenic stasis.

Ahh...

I think we have taken over this thread enough. we better quit while we are ahead.