Produce a ticking video without telling the model she'll be tickled?

[NY ler]

Would it be possible to produce a video where a model gets tied and tickled without first knowing that she'll get tickled? Paradise claimed to have done this with a prostitute but it's authenticity is in question. So could a producer hire a model / prostitute, agree that she'll get restrained, agree that he won't do certain things to her, but leave the door open for tickling. Of course, he'd have to know that she's ticklish... I love Paradise's idea - hire that escort for an unrelated act and figure out if she's ticklish then.

 

[CapturedDoll]

Eeeee I think that's a bit unfair. If the escort had bad experiences.... I love the idea and fantasy of it. But I would never want to play with a person that had bad experiences. To me its not right. My Bf had extremely bad experiences with tickling when He was younger and as hard as it is for me not to tickle Him, I have to respect His not wanting to be. Or else I would be a real jerk.

This is not to say they won't find escorts that will be fine with it afterwards but... I personally can find no pleasure in someone who absolutely hates being tickled. I don't really have all the details of this though yet so...

 

[Comfort Eagle]

For starters, those Tickling Paradise videos were very blatantly fake and I'm astounded they ever fooled anyone ever.

Second, that's a good way to get arrested or beaten.

 

[Teal]

That's extremely unethical.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Would it be possible to produce a video where a model gets tied and tickled without first knowing that she'll get tickled? Paradise claimed to have done this with a prostitute but it's authenticity is in question. So could a producer hire a model / prostitute, agree that she'll get restrained, agree that he won't do certain things to her, but leave the door open for tickling. Of course, he'd have to know that she's ticklish... I love Paradise's idea - hire that escort for an unrelated act and figure out if she's ticklish then.

Yeah...that Paradise video is almost certainly fake. I'm almost positive I've seen the model/escort with different hair color doing an interview video for Paradise. I can't be absolutely sure.The producer's of Paradise can certainly come on here and confirm or refute that point. As a producer, I can tell you that you can get into a lot of legal and criminal trouble doing non consensual videos. You have kidnapping, restraining a person against their will, torture...need I go on? Will these things necessarily be brought against a producer as charges? No, but they certainly could be. It's always been my opinion that ALL tickle videos that are touted as non consensual are most likely fake. Does that mean a real one wasn't made? No, but most of these producers know that they will get into a lot of trouble and have good working relationships with their models. A non consensual video is absolutely not a good working relationship. I advise any would be producers to stay away from the real thing and just make a fake one like everyone else.
webmaster joe

 

[StevePerry4Ever]

That's extremely unethical.

It depends on how it's done. If the girl knows in advance the parameters and is willing to let whatever happen to her providing no parameters are violated(no doubt it will cost a lot extra) then you could pull it off. A lot would have to be agreed on first.

 

[laughinggaszone]

It depends on how it's done. If the girl knows in advance the parameters and is willing to let whatever happen to her providing no parameters are violated(no doubt it will cost a lot extra) then you could pull it off. A lot would have to be agreed on first.

Then it's not non consensual. You got her consent that anything goes. I don't know any models that would agree to that, but you could probably find some adventurous soul who was willing. However, for the large segment of the modelling and escort community, you need to spell out exactly what you intend to do and what is expected of them. A lot of times, this is what determines what they will charge. Why do you think models that go butt naked all over the internet are, for some reason, fully clothed on a tickle site that normally does nude girls. Their price was probably a lot higher to do the video nude.

 

[mabus]

I've always wondered what's the appeal of a non-consensual tickling video.

The tickling and laughter will be exactly the same as a planned one. You only add the uncomfortable factor, which is annoying.

I've seen a few rare videos where the model looked creeped out/annoyed, I guess that's close enough, but it's not my thing. I guess some people get their kicks
that way, since this is a topic that comes up from time to time.

I wonder, in today's tickle world, is it the search for a more genuine/real reaction, like the preference for candid pantyhose/big boob/whatever pics/videos, as compared to
the hired fake model stuff that has permeated the current tickle world?

This, I would totally understand.

(An example of this being, I used to see, and was never interested in the porn model who looked bored/annoyed, in some ridiculous unnatural pose wearing frumpy stockings,
as compared to a girl next door wearing pantyhose with her shoes off after work or something - I think the girl after work, just being natural, is far more sexy, even though it's far
more tame.)

If it's the real reaction, I'd suggest the non-consensual lovers ask for recommendations about what would be a great video based on what preferences they like - real, genuine
laughter, screaming real laughter, silent giggling, whatever.

If someone did a non-consensual video, and wasn't sent off to jail.....what if the girl wasn't ticklish and just fought to get free? What if she just cursed you out the whole time?

I'm not seeing the appeal of that.

 

[Fat Bastard]

KosPro did this with several models (Miranda, Jessica, Paige, Katy, etc.). But I think it caused him more trouble than it was worth, though Miranda is one of the best videos ever made. I believe they can still be purchased through Tickling Paradise.

 

[laughinggaszone]

I've always wondered what's the appeal of a non-consensual tickling video.

The tickling and laughter will be exactly the same as a planned one. You only add the uncomfortable factor, which is annoying.

I've seen a few rare videos where the model looked creeped out/annoyed, I guess that's close enough, but it's not my thing. I guess some people get their kicks
that way, since this is a topic that comes up from time to time.

I wonder, in today's tickle world, is it the search for a more genuine/real reaction, like the preference for candid pantyhose/big boob/whatever pics/videos, as compared to
the hired fake model stuff that has permeated the current tickle world?

This, I would totally understand.

(An example of this being, I used to see, and was never interested in the porn model who looked bored/annoyed, in some ridiculous unnatural pose wearing frumpy stockings,
as compared to a girl next door wearing pantyhose with her shoes off after work or something - I think the girl after work, just being natural, is far more sexy, even though it's far
more tame.)

If it's the real reaction, I'd suggest the non-consensual lovers ask for recommendations about what would be a great video based on what preferences they like - real, genuine
laughter, screaming real laughter, silent giggling, whatever.

If someone did a non-consensual video, and wasn't sent off to jail.....what if the girl wasn't ticklish and just fought to get free? What if she just cursed you out the whole time?

I'm not seeing the appeal of that.

I think it's possible that people are looking for that more "genuine" tickling reaction. Granted, there are some models who fake and some that are not that ticklish. However, with non consensual vids, my opinion is that it's a matter of being titillated or thrilled at controlling a model (usually a woman) and forcing her to endure what is essentially torture. I say torture because the model is generally not being playful or having a good time at it. She's crying and begging and doing other things we associate with suffering. Some people enjoy seeing other people suffer...not saying they are bad...it's just something that turns them on...and tickling can be an excruciating form of suffering for some people. Much like the non consensual vids, I've seen plenty of consensual vids that's selling point is the model crying in extreme discomfort and pleading with the tickler to stop. Are these fake? I would say that more are real than faked, unlike non consensual vids which are probably all fake. The models may not like to be tickled, but are willing to do the shoot and understand that crying will occur, but there is almost always a safe word. They let the producer take them to the limit where they can barely take it and it produces a great deal of discomfort. I would even say some models enjoy that. There are certainly bondage models who enjoy being pushed to the endurance limits, even when extremely painful. It can be a thrill for them as well. At the end of the day, it's hard to say if the model is into it or if it's just a paid gig. Either way, the customer derives pleasure from seeing someone being more than simply tickled. Me personally? I can't watch that. I know that tickling can be torture, but I don't want to see a woman tortured. I prefer that she either enjoys it or at least is game with it. I won't buy videos that have the girl go into the crying and earnest pleading realm. But that's me. I don't like that. I don''t make videos like that. There certainly are producers who do and models who are willing. That's perfectly fine. People have all kinds of darker aspects to fantasies and as long as they remain fantasies or consensual acts between partners, it's not inherently a bad thing.

 

[CapturedDoll]

I wonder, in today's tickle world, is it the search for a more genuine/real reaction, like the preference for candid pantyhose/big boob/whatever pics/videos, as compared to
the hired fake model stuff that has permeated the current tickle world?

This, I would totally understand.

(An example of this being, I used to see, and was never interested in the porn model who looked bored/annoyed, in some ridiculous unnatural pose wearing frumpy stockings,
as compared to a girl next door wearing pantyhose with her shoes off after work or something - I think the girl after work, just being natural, is far more sexy, even though it's far
more tame.)

I just watched a documentary from the UK about amateur couples doing webcam- they are HUGE in demand these days. People who buy porn are getting older, and they want to see other couples that are more like them. People that have a bond with each other. And chemistry. And the younger crowd goes for MIlfs etc.

When I bought my 3 lil tickling videos back in 95 I want to say- one was great- (Tickling Nudies with Olivia Outre' as the Dom). The other 2... not so much. They were hired to do a job- and they didn't accomplish it. So I became very wary of how I spent my money. Who wants to pay 20-45$ (if not MORE) on advd that could suck? I'm very thankful that now you can watch previews. But, even with the clips I have watched- 1- I can't afford to buy anything yet (woo debt!). 2- I hunger for more of the fantasy. I have always been a story reader- and what goes on in the stories is more of a complete picture for me of the situation. Now, obviously there's some things that can't translate like what goes on in a persons head. Unless you have a narrator thing going on) but... for me my fantasies are very intricate, and wide. So, its hard to get me to watch a clip of 2 random people alone together to do a tickling session. It just comes across as cold, and an exchange for money, and that's not hot to me. (It's FINE though- just not hot FOR ME). I HAVE seen some hot clips, don't get me wrong. But for me they are few and far between. The other complaint I have is I can rarely hear what the Tickler is saying. They are never miked- or the boom mike or whatever is so far above their heads- its irritating. Tickle talk if HALF the video for me. So, if I never get to hear the Tickler, no fantasy aspect is in play... there's not much for me to see.

 

[TKLVR18]

Doing this to an escort would be bad enough on it's own, but doing so with the intent on creating and distributing porn of it, without her consent, is stupidly unethical. Now, if you had done so, let her up, and she turned out to be okay with it, not pissed at you, and liked the idea that's one thing, but good luck with that. More likely you'd get the pants sued off you or something. And recording someone without their prior knowledge or consent isn't legal anyway so, again, g/l with that.

~K

 

[maniactickler]

To this day, I still swear the first paradise vision non-con is still real.

 

[laughinggaszone]

To this day, I still swear the first paradise vision non-con is still real.

If that's the one with the brunette escort, I highly doubt it. They used to do short interview/tickle clips introducing possible models. There was a blonde who looked and sounded a lot like that escort. She never appeared in anything other than that interview clip and of course the non con, if that's her. A dye job or a wig is all it would take. Even if it's not her, I will always remain skeptical that a producer would be stupid enough to pull a stunt like that. It's not impossible...just improbable.

 

[Restraints]

For starters, those Tickling Paradise videos were very blatantly fake and I'm astounded they ever fooled anyone ever.

When I saw that video, my brain said "fake" but my lust for tickling said "of course it's real!" And that non-con video remains one of my favorites. I can suspend my disbelief at will.

 

[Wolf]

The whole truly non-consensual tickling thing baffles me, for two reasons:

1: It's unworkable. If someone is in a situation like that without their consent, and they're truly unwilling (scared, creeped out, etc) they're not going to react the way you hope. They won't giggle and laugh, succumbing to the tickling sensations. Just like laughing gas, real life doesn't work the way it does in the stories and videos.

2: Even for the hardest BDSM enthusiasts, consent is a big deal. For a lot of us, tickling is about fun, laughter, enjoyment, sensuality, pleasure, all those positive things; why would you want to make it something awful?

 

[CapturedDoll]

^EXACTLY

 

[Oddjob0226]

It depends on how it's done. If the girl knows in advance the parameters and is willing to let whatever happen to her providing no parameters are violated(no doubt it will cost a lot extra) then you could pull it off. A lot would have to be agreed on first.

That's what I was thinking. Get the release signed and both agree... this, this, and this WON'T happen, no harm will come to you - and you can bring a chaperone - and then go into the tickling slowly and gently after providing some other kind of sensual warm up.

Negotiated properly, in private relationships all sorts of fun surprises are brought into DS relationships. This would just be a business relationship instead. Maybe tickling could even be part of a list of one of many possible activities. That way you both agree it is on the table but she doesn't really know what WILL happen.

 

[Oddjob0226]

The whole truly non-consensual tickling
2: Even for the hardest BDSM enthusiasts, consent is a big deal. For a lot of us, tickling is about fun, laughter, enjoyment, sensuality, pleasure, all those positive things; why would you want to make it something awful?

That's where the 'S' of bdSm comes in. I've been to private events and have seen some very intense stuff. Such scenes are often not about the submissive/masochist enjoying everything; they can downright hate some of what they go through. It's more the S getting off on the sensual/sexual power and the M getting off on the kaleidoscopic roller coaster of senses, emotions, and trust being tested but not violated when they are literally physically helpless. That's where the "runner's high" lies.

 

[Oddjob0226]

To this day, I still swear the first paradise vision non-con is still real.

No, there are technical issues that point out lots of rest breaks or breaks in action breaks (change in white balances being the most obvious; the starting and ending monologue are clearly shot at the same time and edited as separate instances).

The plot was crazy - a guy gets paid to find ticklish women to put one in a video - so for the women who were not ticklish enough he was still getting tickling sessions paid for him by some benefactor? I'd like that job.... "Nope, she was no good, either..... better send me out on another test run...." I'd never find a woman 'ticklish enough' and it wouldn't cost me a dime to keep looking! Still not convinced with the hand-biting bit, either.

Add to the fact that the victim did one of their audition videos under a different name. Plus, the video ends the exact same way that Blair Witch Project ends (yelling, and the camera tips over) I wondered if the ending was a veiled tribute, since BWP came out fist and the fetish video about a year or so later.)

I *would* buy that they pushed the model beyond what she could take, but as far as I know that told her they were going to do exactly that, she agreed, and paid her double, let's say, to compensate her discomfort. So it wasn't non-con in it's purest form even then.

 

[brotherted]

KosPro did this with several models (Miranda, Jessica, Paige, Katy, etc.). But I think it caused him more trouble than it was worth, though Miranda is one of the best videos ever made.

I agree 100%, and remain kind of amazed that people still talk about the old "prostitute" video, (which I do believe was real), while the TickleSlaves series from KosPro was about a thousand times better. I would love a chance to talk to that producer, but can't find a way to locate him. (If anyone knows how, please message me!)

 

[brotherted]

That's what I was thinking. Get the release signed and both agree... this, this, and this WON'T happen ...
Maybe tickling could even be part of a list of one of many possible activities....

This is exactly what I've been saying for years. Any video producer who follows this formula will instantly make many thousands of dollars, with three simple rules.

1.) Book someone for a "bondage" video, where the contract contains a list of approved activities, like "model agrees to appear in a video which could include depictions or scenes of struggling, pleading, confusion, disorientation, tickling, obedience or capitulation." Get the contract signed in advance. (If asked about the tickling, a nonchalant, "yes, there could be some tickling" should suffice. If pressed on the issue, a "look, this is just our contract, you can sign it or not" should do the job.)

2.) Ease into the tickling slowly, but then build to maximum intensity.

3.) If at any point, the model truly sounds like she's scared for her life, having an emotional breakdown or is truly traumatized, then simply stop. The great majority won't be. Trust me, I've done this many times in my private life -- most girls just laugh, a few like it, but even though most will be highly annoyed with you, most are not psychologically traumatized -- but again, if they express that they are, you just stop.

Detractors always assume that non-con'ers have Asperger's and will have no ability to hear other human beings, and so these detractors can't seem to wrap their heads around my rule #3. In fact, it would work quite easily and would lead to a new crop of completely kick ass videos, without the fake, exaggerated-for-the-camera laughter that can be heard on most videos today.

These three simple steps would lead to a creative breakthrough in a video genre that's become quite stale the last five years.

 

[Wolf]

This is exactly what I've been saying for years. Any video producer who follows this formula will instantly make many thousands of dollars, with three simple rules.

1.) Book someone for a "bondage" video, where the contract contains a list of approved activities, like "model agrees to appear in a video which could include depictions or scenes of struggling, pleading, confusion, disorientation, tickling, obedience or capitulation." Get the contract signed in advance. (If asked about the tickling, a nonchalant, "yes, there could be some tickling" should suffice. If pressed on the issue, a "look, this is just our contract, you can sign it or not" should do the job.)

2.) Ease into the tickling slowly, but then build to maximum intensity.

3.) If at any point, the model truly sounds like she's scared for her life, having an emotional breakdown or is truly traumatized, then simply stop. The great majority won't be. Trust me, I've done this many times in my private life -- most girls just laugh, a few like it, but even though most will be highly annoyed with you, most are not psychologically traumatized -- but again, if they express that they are, you just stop.

Detractors always assume that non-con'ers have Asperger's and will have no ability to hear other human beings, and so these detractors can't seem to wrap their heads around my rule #3. In fact, it would work quite easily and would lead to a new crop of completely kick ass videos, without the fake, exaggerated-for-the-camera laughter that can be heard on most videos today.

These three simple steps would lead to a creative breakthrough in a video genre that's become quite stale the last five years.

I'm sure any one of several successful producers on the TMF could tell you with much more authority than I can what is so very wrong with that plan, but I'll give you a clue: Contracts are to protect all parties, and misrepresenting the circumstances by way of a "clever" trick of wording doesn't protect you. Any producer who'd actually try this on a model would lose all credibility in the business.

 

[brotherted]

No, there are technical issues that point out lots of rest breaks or breaks in action breaks (change in white balances being the most obvious; the starting and ending monologue are clearly shot at the same time and edited as separate instances)...

I *would* buy that they pushed the model beyond what she could take, but as far as I know that told her they were going to do exactly that, she agreed, and paid her double, let's say, to compensate her discomfort. So it wasn't non-con in it's purest form even then.

Thank you for the most lucid analysis I've ever read about this famous video. You make clear that some of these arguments have been rooted in people using completely different definitions of the words "fake" or "real."

If "real" to you means the voice over was recorded on the spot rather than later, and the description of a guy sent out to test prostitutes for ticklishness must be taken literally, then I could understand your skepticism. Maybe to them, "we have a friend who fucks a lot of whores, and in the process, he always figures out if they're ticklish" didn't sound like a set-up they wanted to give on this video, and so they dressed it up a bit. (Turning on or off certain lights changes the white balance -- seems to me such changes have no bearing on whether the 'lee was in on the premise or not in on the premise.) But to you, it appears, "real" means everything in the video was 100% true and recorded without cuts.

By contrast, for me, "real" has nothing to do with whether they dressed up a story afterward to package a narrative, or switched on lights. For me, "real" means the 'lee was ultimately genuinely pissed off, was legitimately, truly begging to be let go, but instead got tickle-tortured beyond her ability to deal with it. In other words, the rage she expressed -- I just don't read that as acting -- and I consider myself pretty hyper-intuitive on sensing emotional truth.

So maybe we've all been both right all this time.

 

[laughinggaszone]

I'm sure any one of several successful producers on the TMF could tell you with much more authority than I can what is so very wrong with that plan, but I'll give you a clue: Contracts are to protect all parties, and misrepresenting the circumstances by way of a "clever" trick of wording doesn't protect you. Any producer who'd actually try this on a model would lose all credibility in the business.

Yeah, that's not how we ever do it and I don't know any of the producers in the community that do. This "creative breakthrough" is more likely to get you the rep of a skeevy perv than a respectable producer. The "contract" is never about the content. It's about ownership and rights. It's called a "model release form". The content is discussed before any paperwork is signed. It's all a negotiation and models set the limits. A lot of them have websites or are on model employment sites and they detail what they do and do not do. If we don't agree to their limits, we don't hire them. Models should never be scared. These are people doing this, more or less, for a living. It's a job. They may be into in it or they may not. They want a safe work environment and sometimes bring boyfriends as chaperons. What the poster you responded to described as a "creative break though" sounds more like his ideal fantasy of how to shoot a tickle video he'd like to see. The reality is very different.