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Relationship Question. in the age of Equality should there be chivalry?

devilsadvocate

TMF Regular
Joined
Aug 5, 2003
Messages
290
Points
16
had a fairly monumental row with my girlfriend about this a few weeks ago. i just tried to be a good b/f and was doing the gentlemanly things. like pulling the chair out for her to sit down. opening doors and everything for her. she got angry and said she didn't need help to do everything. so i was stood there looking like a goldfish for a few seconds before i got angry, and a screaming match began. so i ask the good people of the TMF for their opinion.
 
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There aren't many men like you. Lots of women want men like you. My fiance does those things for me and I like it. It has nothing to do with equality. In our relationship we are both equal. We both have a say in all decisions. We both respect each other. I suppose I do look up to him and see him as being emotionally stronger than me because he looks after me so well but I'm there for him too. I can look after myself and always have but I do think it's nice to have a door opened for me or a chair pulled out. It's just good manners. It's the difference between being a man and a gentleman.
 
I think 'aun' covered it pretty well :)

Perhaps your girlfriend, just thought it was too much at once? Or could be PMT time (sorry bad joke lol).

For me, I think its nice to have a bit of chivalry and more so when you least expect it, may sound stupid, but it makes you feel special with your other half etc. At work, if I'm coming into a room and a male colleague is coming out the door, he will open the door for me and wait til I've passed, thats respect. Little things put a smile on your face, its not life and death but I'm grateful.
 
My philosophy is treat your girl like an equal, but dont kiss her ass and be too mushy. let her pull the chair out for you once in awhile.
 
If she gives you any trouble again, get rid of her and adopt a puppy. :dog:
 
Definitely alot of us women want a man like you. A friend of mine said he got so sick of holding a door for a woman at the mall and her bitching at him, and I was just shocked. Screw that, please do act like a gentleman, sheesh it makes you wonder. I've been lucky to find plenty in my dating years but I know there are fewer and fewer out there these days.
 
I have some old fashioned notions about what a gentleman should do, but I'm also independent and didn't grow up in the 1950's. I allow guys to open doors for me, although it makes me a little uncomfortable. I don't think I'd like a guy to pull out/push in a chair for me, or something like that.

I'd say things should probably be more equal than they are, but if she keeps complaining just hit her in the mouth.

"One of these days, Alice, to the moon!"

Nothing more old fashioned than domestic violence!
 
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Devil, I beleive you are on the best course available to you. For every instance someone gives you grief, there will be several who will thank you. It has never been about equality, it has always been and will always be about courtesy. I will open the door for anyone with whom I am going thru a door not just a lady. If I am loaded down, I expect someone I am walking with to open the door for me, common kindness.

Now on the other hand, I enjoy treating a lady special in every way possible without being cheesy. Very often a lady out with a gentleman will be dressed very well and to offer to help with a door or a chair allows them to maintain their dignity while getting up or sitting down. Whether the dress be kind of formal, or short skirts, it does not hurt to pay attention to if they might benefit from assistance.

Pay attention to the person in your company and you can usually tell how they react to courtesy. I believe that the more you practice the easier it is for a person to accept your actions of kindness as normal behavior without being threatened by feeling like they are thought of as helpless. Just be you and you will be rewarded most times. Good luck.

Just the thoughts from the old guy.
 
Chivalry

Women, even when held to be inferior to men in most respects (as in historical Europe, when and where the codes of chivalry were established), have always held a general "special place" in culture and spirituality. Most of the earliest spiritual traditions were, naturally (no pun intended), nature-focused, and they typically attributed femininity to the Earth. We are all born of women, as was----such being important to Christian tradition----the son of God Himself, born of a virgin (read: "pure woman," undiluted by man), according to Christian doctrine. While the codes of chivalry, when followed at all (which was rare) were frequently twisted and abused, the original idea was in fact that women were of such importance to our existence that they deserved special treatment, even a certain degree of general veneration. Hence also the concept of 'courtly love,' whereby a knight might fight for the honor of a woman, wed or otherwise beholden to another, whom he loved (and was fated to love) platonically. The ideal was actually that there was a sort of "noble suffering" in the knight's lack of complete, physical fulfillment from the "relationship," which was typically with a noble or royal patron (or the wife, sister, daughter, etc. thereof); this lack of physical fulfillment was seen as actually being an expeditor (sp, sorry) or encouragement towards spiritual fulfillment; one was conditioning one's soul to love a distant God by first practicing restraint in the loving of a "distant" woman. In the (Frenchified) version of King Arthur's story, for example, Lancelot is seen as a traitor... not for loving Guinevere, as this would in fact have been held (by the ideals which the Arthurian tales are meant to exemplify) as utterly true and noble, but by giving in to his less platonic, earthier urges.

Sadly, during most of the periods and in most (Western, at least) societies where women were held as second-class citizens by men who wished to be in charge of everything, this innate high regard for women and womanhood was twisted and convoluted to reflect an inferiority; it is now (speaking figuratively, not actually meaning "now") proper to hold a door open for a woman, not because it's polite or convenient or respectful, but because it just might be a little difficult for her to do it herself. The original ideals of chivalry more or less fell by the wayside, in favor of the inferior-gender explanation for everything that once had a much more virtuous reason behind it.

It can sometimes be difficult to separate what was, or is still, done, out of veneration, from that which is done out of a notion of masculine necessity or superiority in one form or another (I do not say that such exists, only that certain people hold the notion that it does). Certain women are either very insecure in themselves, thus vulnerable to the implication made by a man that they are somehow inferior or unable to perform the offered tasks themselves (whether or not this implication was meant to be made by the man in question) or else very untrusting of a man who attempts such actions, believing----not in her own inferiority----but, rather, in the idea that the man is making a statement regarding such. Despite certain theories to the contrary, I don't believe the two rationalities are necessarily linked 100% of the time. But, that could just be me.

In summary...

I think that the original purpose behind these gestures was a token of respect for the importance of women in our lives, and that they were nothing to be taken lightly, taken insultingly, or sneezed at, but that centuries of abuse and misuse since chivalry arose have resulted in suspicion towards the motives and true feelings of one who would step so out of place from current societal norms as to perform such functions as opening doors, pulling out chairs, etc.. Now, we're at the flip side of the coin from the original state of chivalric affairs; it's so difficult, re: the fear of being publicly taken to task for doing it, to bring oneself to do these things (in many instances) that when they are done they are usually done out of an honest good intention, but such is no longer necessarily seen or believed in readily.

...With me?
 
devilsadvocate said:
had a fairly monumental row with my girlfriend about this a few weeks ago. i just tried to be a good b/f and was doing the gentlemanly things. like pulling the chair out for her to sit down. opening doors and everything for her. she got angry and said she didn't need help to do everything. so i was stood there looking like a goldfish for a few seconds before i got angry, and a screaming match began. so i ask the good people of the TMF for their opinion.
I'm in agreement with the other ladies who have responded that there are women in the world who want gentlemen like you. And I am one of them.
I like the old fashion chivalry. It shows that you care about your sweetheart.

If your girlfriend was uncomfortable about it or simply didn't like it, instead of getting mad like that, she should have said something like, 'I appreciate you holding the doors and pulling out my chair, but it's not necessary.'

And instead of getting mad at her, you could've calmly told her that you like doing those things for her, but if she doesn't you to, you'll either stop or do them less often.
 
I was raised to do things like that,not just for the ladies,but for people in general.Not with the chairs and such for men,but just courtesy in a general way.If i'm out with a lady i'm going to open the car door for her,and open the door when we go into a store,a restaurant etc.And let her order first.I'm to old to change my ways,nor do i care to.It does suprise me how often i hold open a door for someone and they go by without a word,but i do it anyway.
 
There definitely should be chivalry. But, don't use it to kiss a woman's ass and make sure you spice it up and be playful. For every door you open for your woman, walk fast into the next door and close it on her so she has to open it and follow you. I believe the most important chivalrous acts are how you hold her hand and walking on the outside. Don't ever hold your woman's hand like the way you use to hold your mother's when you were a kid. Always walk on the outside and keep her to the inside. Women want to feel comfortable and protected around their men. For example, if you two are walking together inside a mall, walk on the outside (against the flow of the oncoming crowd) and keep her to the inside.
 
Being a gentleman and then yelling when you are told no, isnt that a bit of a hypocrisy?
 
Azrael said:
I just realized how truly unhelpful that really was.
I disagree - I thought it was very helpful! Of if not helpful, then at least interesting. :) It is funny that the gesture of opening a door for a woman could possibly be interpreted as including the assumption that a woman can't do something so easy as opening the door for herself. But in the context of the historical explanation you laid out, it does make more sense.

I can understand why some women get up in arms about being treated like a "lady," especially in contexts where what she wants is to be treated like an equal. I think there is a fear, on the part of some women, that men do chivalrous things to put up a barrier separating men and women, and if they do, the people with the power and authority are almost certainly going to be on the male side of the fence.

Nevertheless, as other posters have already stated, a gesture of politeness deserves a return gesture of politeness. If a woman doesn't want that sort of chivalry from a man, there are certainly polite ways of saying so. I'm guessing the OP's girlfriend was in a bad mood, or else he unknowing pushed a button linked to some old negative personal history.
 
I open doors for women who want such things, and don't for women who don't. I also open doors for men.

Seems to take care of all the possible problems.
 
Shame that. I mean it. Part fiercely independent feminist, part old-fashioned girl, I've ALWAYS loved chivalrous men.
You and me, we've been watching each other a long time, sweets. Don't change anything about yourself. Except maybe your gf. (Kidding)

I've held the door for guys myself on occasion, just for the heck. Your girlfriend, if she objected so much, could have handled things a lot better than she did. A sunny "that's ok, babe, I can handle!" would have been just fine.

I read your post on my way out the door at work and LovesHeels beat me to the punch, word for word. Being a gentleman, being polite, having good manners will NEVER be out of fashion.
XOXO




devilsadvocate said:
had a fairly monumental row with my girlfriend about this a few weeks ago. i just tried to be a good b/f and was doing the gentlemanly things. like pulling the chair out for her to sit down. opening doors and everything for her. she got angry and said she didn't need help to do everything. so i was stood there looking like a goldfish for a few seconds before i got angry, and a screaming match began. so i ask the good people of the TMF for their opinion.
 
Long Live Chivalry!!!

I'm ALWAYS the gentleman. And I teach my son, 18, to be a gentleman as well. AND, I treat my daughter like a lady, e.g. open the car door for her, the house door, ordering first at a restaurant, etc. And she's only 13 years old. That way she'll know a gentleman when she's on date (Which she's not allowed to do until she's 25. LOL) And he'll know if the girl he's dating is appreciative or a B....

I've been grooming both of my kids since they were little. And I really love the way my son takes the gentleman role seriously not only to us, but to our extended families (Female cousins, aunts, et al.)
 
I was told of a particular event that happened a few years ago. It seems to explain quite a lot to me.

A man walks through a door and holds it open for a woman to walk through. She asks the man, "Are you holding that door open because I'm a woman?" to which he replies, "No, I'm holding the door because I'm a gentleman."

I like to think I have been brought up to respect everyone who deserves it, and to somewhat tolerate those who don't. So I do do things like hold the door open for my wife. It's part of who I am. My wife likes that very much.
But I don't think it should be imposed on people if someone doesn't like being treated like that, then they shouldn't be. Maybe your GF was just embarrassed that she was being given so much attention! It could be as simple as that. And if they say "you're never a gentleman to me" (it's happened before to me - same thing as the thread starter) then you can say why. However, it doesn't mean that you should stop doing it for other people. Hell, I even do it for my mum, my sister, my female friends and colleagues.
 
Chivalry
My mother raised me to open / hold the door for a lady, pull the chair back from the table, make sure they get into a warm / cool car depending on the outside ……

But, since leaving her home oh so many decades ago, I find myself not doing those little things. For me I have met so many women (not ladies) that made me feel low for doing those little bits of kindness, as if I slap them in their face.

I have had one tell me she don’t’ need me to hold the door for them, even though she had both hands full with items.

In short, ladies you can’t keep sending males mix signals. If we complement you on the way you look, you get upset because we’re not the person you want to hear it from. If we try to help you with the door you get upset because you feel we think you’re weak.

But when you looking for someone to do it for you and we don’t we’re pigs. You can’t have it both ways
 
chivalry's not dead: it's just resting

I've had several conversations with (male) friends over the years concerning this particular subject. And I always find it to be particularly interesting- to the point where I remember conversations about this from many years ago. I think people tend to have slightly different or nuanced positions as to what they consider to be courteous or gentlemanly.

I remember a friend, who didn't understand my thoughts, saying to me, 'so you would just let a door close in a date's face?' As I explained, I would of course hold the door on a date or when I'm not on a date- for a man or a woman. That, to me, is common courtesy. I would also offer to let people de-elevator (just felt like creating a new word :p ) before me, regardless of their gender. At the time of that discussion (argument, actually), I specifically mentioned that I would not park a car, get out, and open up the passenger side door for a date. I quipped that if my date were waiting for such an action, they would have to keep waiting. Again, this is a personal feeling- I don't hold it against anyone who chooses to do that. Nor do I mean to make light of how far a gentleman chooses to go where these matters are concerned. But for me, I think certain actions (and I could think of more extreme ones) do promote an implicit tone/message that the relationship is not one of equal footing.

One friend of mine described how he would help a friend's mother with her coat, but he wouldn't do the same thing for a man. I would guess that so much of this has to do with one's upbringing. To some extent, when one is dating and getting to know someone, I think you can feel them out as to what some of their attitudes and preferences are and what you feel comfortable doing for them. Dependence/independence may be one of the key issues where this is concerned.
 
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