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Right & wrong; black or white ........or gray

FlockOfSeagulls

3rd Level Yellow Feather
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Feb 8, 2006
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It just seems to be that so many people justify there actions when they know what they are doing is wrong or immoral. They make things ''gray'' when in there hearts they know it is wrong.

I am talking about the big things in life; not all the small meaningless things that really don`t matter.Would like to get your opinions on this subject.
 
It's funny you mention this. I was just thinking about this subject the other day.

I am finding myself ever increasingly annoyed at society's consistent and ever-expanding use of the "shades of grey" theory. It irks me how people seem to go out of their way to create said grey area in an attempt to justify whatever action they feel obligated to get away with.

Baseless divorce, adultery, humiliation, and other actions seem to be thrown into the mix. There is way to much emphasis these days, on flexing certain "rights" without taking any type of responsibility under many circumstances.

Murder is bad. Rape is bad. Fire bombing someones house for fun is bad. These examples are put forth for those in society who live a prototypical lifestyle. There is no middle ground. And this is where the trouble begins.

Very few people have the forsight to realise that this world and jockeying for position in respects of the aquisition of personal gain, as it stands today, is built on moderation. Your boss(whom may not like you) is not going to slam you up against the nearest wall and scream "I am harassing you now!" No. They will pick at you. Your dignity. Your self esteem. Until you up and leave or fall into step to satiate their god-complex. Those around you who might hear you complain about it will, in all ignorance(and a little relief that it's not them), mock you for it. "Well, it's not like they're slamming you up against a wall and yelling at you or anything." Until, of course, it happens to them.

Corporations in general are also living proof of this. Do you work for one? Try finding out how the standards of living for you are today in the workforce as opposed to the 70's or even 80's.

Human nature, however, is dealt the worst blow. The last example was a segue-ish food for thought ideal. But, if you really want to see the so-called shades of grey mentality, then look at how our society has regressed. Thanks to reality shows, pop culture in both the cinema and especially our music industry, you begin to see the pattern of loose responsibility take place.

People will now be able to see others in the media destroy any sense of honor or decency they may have posessed thrown out the window for the home audiance. Supposing that there is someone on the other side of the screen wrestling with their concience over any matter that is plaguing their lives. Well, there comes the problem. They will look to these media figures as proof that others are just as bad. If not worse. So johnny or jenny six pack decide that if Julia Roberts can steal someones spouse away from their betrothed and STILL be seen as a good person, then why can't they? After all, it's not like they murdered anyone or anything like that.

Many would argue that people were shit long before reality shows were ever invented. I can agree with that point to an extent. TV sure as fuck isn't helping.

Generation-X and the latchkey generation were the pinnacles of our downward slide towards selfish gratification at any costs. Ours was the first(GEN-X, I mean) to absolve ourselves of any responsibility. We were raised by TV. A big fucking mistake. Now we have 30 to 38 year olds still latching on to their high school mentality: Gotta look good so cute boys/girls will like me. Gotta get laid or I'm a loser, Gotta buy the newest Calvin Klein cologne/perfume or my friends won't like me any more. All the while judging others on appearences, social status, and even music. Those who don't conform are ostracized. But that's okay. As long as we tell all our friends/family/aquaintances that we have to end racism as loudly as possible so that everyone in the mall can hear how intigrationalistic we are, then we're good to go.

Honestly, I don't even know why we spend so much time fighting the war on drugs. When two whole generations are destroying themselves and societys outlook on decency just to make themselves feel better about their own lives, then why the living hell do we even think we have the audacity to pull that crack pipe from jimmy twitches hand? Well, because, adultery, promiscuity, STD's are NATURAL and BIOLOGICAL...Drugs are made in a lab. That's not right. Right?

Have you ever noticed that when a bunch of assholes are wrong about something, they will band together and hack on the single one person who proved them wrong? The one who made them feel like idiots? They mock him. Humiliate him. Degrade him. Why? Because they don't want to feel stupid. There are more of them than the smart guy. So let the ripping begin. Now try to imagine something like this ever-growing on a national, and then international level over a period of about ten to fifteen years...Kind of like those Zombies from night of the living dead.

There is no grey area when somebody else is going to get hurt for no reason...PERIOD!
 
technically, black and white and grey is all a matter of perception and personal views. Hitler for example is viewed as evil by many people, yet there are also those who view him as a hero. Personally, i don't think Hitler thought he was evil. More then likely he thought he was doing a good thing.

See, personally I belive the vast majority of things fall into the shades of grey area, but i'll also agree that if it hurts somebody then it probably falls into the black area.
 
Yeah, pretty much what Cosmo said. I believe there is a real danger in believing things are black and white. People are just too different. And diversity is a good thing. It's possible that certain uber-conservative governmental heads might feel otherwise, but it would be a shame for us all to fall for that.
 
Good and Evil, Moral and "Immoral", are in the eye of the beholder. Something I think is perfectly "Moral" may seem "Immoral" to someone else. Yanno what? I'm happy with that.
 
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Personally, i don't think Hitler thought he was evil. More then likely he thought he was doing a good thing.



I agree I don't think anyone says " I'm going to be evil now!" As long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone else.............................I leave it alone!!!! Not my business!
 
Illtcklu said:
I agree I don't think anyone says " I'm going to be evil now!"

Well, you'd be surprised; I and many people I know do this all the time. When you deal every day with people who have a different definition of "evil" than you do, you find yourself willfully acting in a manner that you know will be unpopular. The difference between Hitler and I is that he didn't live in a world where he was forced to consider that his enemies may be correct. (Well, that and the whole genocide thing, I guess.)

Dussicar: There was a time when I felt the same way. Then I realized that this feeling isn't a late-20th-century phenomenon; every generation believes that the ones that come after it are too progressive, too lenient, too open. This has been going on for thousands of years. All the societal ills you mention are old, too -- adultery and harassment are certainly nothing new, in fact the latter wasn't even considered "evil" until the last hundred years or so.
 
Actually, Hisflyingfingers, I agree with you on that point. Because I still believe that as well.

Its just that things have gotten a lot more vicious. I mean that even though people from the 60's think the kids from the 70's were going to hell in a hand basket and so on, our culture today is worse for wear. I feel we are regressing. The last generations still had anchors of sorts. Regardless of their life styles, the children from, say, the 70's and up still had more sources of strength to draw upon than the kids today. up to and including-ulp- television. :wowzer:

Now it's TV that is one of the biggest causes of selling unhapiness. I threw adultery into the mix with my last statement only because it seems so much more prevelant. Not only that but it's being used in TV and cinemas by characters that are seen as "shades of grey." The adultery, as in most cases, is usually unwarranted. This is done by media outlets for an excuse to get the actor to show some skin or even for ratings. But the audiance, most of whom are in the 12 to 18 age catagory won't see this or have enough brains to figure out that that is why it was done.

I am not COMPLETELY against adultery, however. I have seen incidents where I'm looking at how badly somebody is treated in a marriage and wonder why they don't try to find love elsewhere. It's easier said than done and some might argue that they should get divorced first. Sometimes there are exceptions that aren't so cut and dry.

But the reason why I mentioned adultery in my last post was because most people who commit it in the past did so out of selfishness. Considering how selfish we are today, this just gets worse. The shades of grey ome in when those who could work this out with said spouse might not even bother due to the fact that "Brangelina" did it. So why can't I?

Bah! I want to add more but I'm getting late for my morning jog and I'm just rambling now. But that's kind of what I am trying to get at in a nut shell.
 
HisFlyinFingers said:
Well, you'd be surprised; I and many people I know do this all the time. When you deal every day with people who have a different definition of "evil" than you do, you find yourself willfully acting in a manner that you know will be unpopular. The difference between Hitler and I is that he didn't live in a world where he was forced to consider that his enemies may be correct. (Well, that and the whole genocide thing, I guess.)
.
That maybe true in certain situations, but fanaticism and those who are fanatics have their own code. They believe themselves to be visionaries and therefore the last thing they would do is see themselves as evil!!!! The terriorists who bombed us truly believe they are in the right!!! Fanaticism is the true evil here! ( but I'm getting too political )
 
This probably won't be chosen as the most popular...

I do defiinitely believe in absolutes-black and white! There are rules of the universe and if they're violated, there are consequences. I think this is the main reason that our generations have become so desensitized to the point of confusion. There's no one there to sort that confusion, so the truth becomes relative. Everyone makes up their truth to suit and soothe their conscience. I see the bottom dropping year after year: human life has little meaning and now society's putting teenagers in jail with adults because of the crimes they commit. Because of the heinous nature of their crimes, there's nowhere else you can put them. These "children" are morally bottomless because their parents were too lazy and cowardly to teach them right from wrong! And I mean absolute right from absoulte wrong! There are some things in this life that have absolutely no gray area whatsoever and we need to find it-especially those who are raising children. You (being hypothetical) are doing your children a horrible disservice by not raising them with iron-clad moral and ethical standards! Eventually, you will send them into a world that doesn't care what they do until they mess up. Then they'll want blood and "justice"-they won't care a thing about your "baby" then.

Having said that, I also believe that there shades of gray-issues that are person and situation specific. Sometimes you have to use life experience, wisdom, mixed with compassion. Someone committed a wrong: Is it their first time? Is it an error of passion? Are there mitigating circumstances that need to be weighed into the decision? Are you (hypothetical) willing to be responsible for the decision made or are you just going to slough if off?

In conclusion, I believe that there is definitely black and white along with shades of gray. Adults know where the lines are drawn and should be teaching them to their kids. But because many parents are too scared to parent and are worried about their kids liking them, many children will be cheated out of a moral backbone! We have to exercise some wisdom and compassion to dole justice to these poorly raised children when they mess up. It should go by a case-by-case basis and children should never be mixed in the adult jail population under any circumstances regardless of the crime.

People need to go back to what truly makes sense and that's the truth no matter how brutal it might be. Once you deal with a situation honestly only then can you move on to what's really right or wrong. Otherwise, you ride on the train of popular thought and that might not be the right place to be.
 
Kis, you're right of course but the danger lies in who is defining the black and white. Leave it to our current administration, for example, and this forum would be shut down mighty quick.

Leave it to certain others and society continues its decay.

How can it be defined really?

You didn't offer examples of what's absolute black and absolute white to you. I bet we couldn't find one single item that we could get everyone in this discussion to agree on.
 
lk70 said:
Kis, you're right of course but the danger lies in who is defining the black and white. Leave it to our current administration, for example, and this forum would be shut down mighty quick.

Leave it to certain others and society continues its decay.

How can it be defined really?

You didn't offer examples of what's absolute black and absolute white to you. I bet we couldn't find one single item that we could get everyone in this discussion to agree on.

I am going to have to disagree with your last statement.
 
FlockOfSeagulls said:
It just seems to be that so many people justify there actions when they know what they are doing is wrong or immoral. They make things ''gray'' when in there hearts they know it is wrong.

I am talking about the big things in life; not all the small meaningless things that really don`t matter.Would like to get your opinions on this subject.

I think that to have to accept that things are not black or white, is equivalent ot accept that there is no perfection, either for good or bad, everything is imperfect in all orders of life.

Now, if zero is perfection then:
0.5 is less perfect than 0.1, which is much less perfect than 0.0000000000001
and so on. You may not reach zero, but in general you should be able to realize which one is closer.
 
lk70 said:
Kis, you're right of course but the danger lies in who is defining the black and white. Leave it to our current administration, for example, and this forum would be shut down mighty quick.

Leave it to certain others and society continues its decay.

How can it be defined really?

You didn't offer examples of what's absolute black and absolute white to you. I bet we couldn't find one single item that we could get everyone in this discussion to agree on.

im afraid you may be mistaken........i think all in this discussion can agree on the fact that we participated in this discussion....yeah, thats lame but best i can do on short notice :dogpile:
 
lk70 said:
Kis, you're right of course but the danger lies in who is defining the black and white. Leave it to our current administration, for example, and this forum would be shut down mighty quick.

Leave it to certain others and society continues its decay.

How can it be defined really?

You didn't offer examples of what's absolute black and absolute white to you. I bet we couldn't find one single item that we could get everyone in this discussion to agree on.

There is no danger at all of defining what is black and white. You measure your actions against how they affect yourself and the world you live in. It has been said in Native American culture, when a decision is made it is measured through six generations. If a person would take the time to find out how their decisions affect others around them in the long run, a whole lotta' crap would be avoided! But most people don't because they're only looking to satisfy themselves in the immediate. Every decision a person makes has consequences in the short and long term. Many only look for instant gratification not caring about the long term effects.

I've been avoiding the biblical here, but the Ten Commandments look like a pretty good place to start. I'm not talking about religion, but basic common sensical (word?) approach to living. I think it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal, screw around along with the other six mentioned. Parents are responsible to teach their children right from wrong and certain things are not negotiable. If you're not religious, that's fine too. Unless you (hypothetical) are a complete sociopath, your heart tells you when you've done wrong. Whether or not you choose to listen is another story

People want to tailor their own morality to suit their needs. They don't want to be held accountable for their actions and they don't anyone showing them that they're wrong. It's a very selfish and arrogant approach to life and they're passing that crap to their children. It's irresponsible, cowardly, and lazy and the children end up paying for it in the long run.

I really don't mean to offend anyone, but I have never really cared about anyone agreeing with me on issues. I'd rather say and do what I know is right and be unpopular than to run with the masses anyway. I've been ther and done that-it's not a good way to live based on if people like me. I don't like giving anyone that much control anyway. It's about the only positive concept my father ever taught me, and he couldn't live right to save his otherwise miserable life!
 
You hear someone who says that they cheated on there spouse because they weren`t getting there sexual needs fullfilled. Well you no what , that does not make it right or OK. So those who try to justify it in there minds try to fool themselves into thinking it was not wrong.
 
kis123 said:
I've been avoiding the biblical here, but the Ten Commandments look like a pretty good place to start. I'm not talking about religion, but basic common sensical (word?) approach to living. I think it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal, screw around along with the other six mentioned.

Ok, really I'm just being esoteric and a pain in the ass because really I agree....BUT. Let's look at stealing.

Person A has a vial of arsenic with which he plans to kill Person B. Person A can't get any more arsenic. Person C steals arsenic from Person A to save Person B. Is the act of theft wrong? Just plain wrong? Or is the wrongness mitigated by the fact that the act of doing it prevented a "bigger" wrong?

That's the kind of thing I mean.
 
lk70 said:
Ok, really I'm just being esoteric and a pain in the ass because really I agree....BUT. Let's look at stealing.

Person A has a vial of arsenic with which he plans to kill Person B. Person A can't get any more arsenic. Person C steals arsenic from Person A to save Person B. Is the act of theft wrong? Just plain wrong? Or is the wrongness mitigated by the fact that the act of doing it prevented a "bigger" wrong?

That's the kind of thing I mean.

And what if person B was actually meant to be the person who wanted to use his knowledge of bioterrorism to kill millions? Person C has now opened the door to slaughter by saving person B's life.

We could go on and on with this example. People (hypothetical) can always scratch for the so-called "exception". If a person really wants to justify a behavior, they will dig and dig until they find the appropriate situation and circumstances to do it.

Besides, two wrongs never made a right in my world, no matter what the circumstances. I'll believe in my absolutes because I'll be more right than wrong by sticking with them.
 
kis123 said:
I'll believe in my absolutes because I'll be more right than wrong by sticking with them.

I like that.
 
Well, KIS123, I think you've made some very valid points. However, I have to disagree with you on one.

I believe that not only can two wrongs make a right, but that under certain circumstances, it is essential.

Which is EXACTLY why I plan to squirrel away about a thousand dollars.

Half of it will go towards the gun license and deer rifle. The other half towards the Rod Stewart concert tickets.

As God as my witness, that squawking bastard is going down!!!!! :evilha: :devil2: :firedevil
 
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