Tickle Auction

[tklcouple]

Has anybody here been to a tickle auction? Where ticklees are auctioned off for private tickle sessions to the highest bidder?

Well, we are trialing this idea at the next Michigan gathering. Participation is totally voluntary and we have some gals and at least one guy (and likely more of each coming) who are willing to put themselves up for auction to the highest bidding tickler. This is a silent auction and the proceeds will go to defray the cost of the gathering and the remainder to charity (Make-A-Wish Foundation or something of that nature) with no less than half the proceeds to the charity. This is primarily for the enjoyment of gathering attendees as it allows some excitement as well as some tickling opportunities that may not be available otherwise.

I am wondering what people think, suggestions on rules. A copy of the proposed rules can be seen in the Gatherings section under the posting about the Michigan party in the "Tickling in Detroit" section of the Midwest portion.

Anyone experienced this? Let me know about your experiences.

Anyone want to volunteer as a ticklee? PM us and let us know ASAP.

Professor Tkl

 

[Redmage]

This is a silent auction and the proceeds will go to defray the cost of the gathering and the remainder to charity (Make-A-Wish Foundation or something of that nature) with no less than half the proceeds to the charity. This is primarily for the enjoyment of gathering attendees as it allows some excitement as well as some tickling opportunities that may not be available otherwise.

I am wondering what people think, suggestions on rules. A copy of the proposed rules can be seen in the Gatherings section under the posting about the Michigan party in the "Tickling in Detroit" section of the Midwest portion.

I've never participated in a tickling auction specifically, but I have participated in BDSM auctions. Perhaps I can offer some suggestions from that.

The first thing I'd suggest is that you have a quick chat with an attorney. I realize that you aren't intending it, but you MIGHT be running afoul of pandering laws if you use real money. The problem is that while tickling isn't sex, it is sexual in many cases (at least in the sense of being arousing). Most states' prostitution laws are written to cover anything that the people involved find sexually stimulating. The person who receives the money exchanged in such transactions can often be charged with pandering - pimping, essentially. That's a much more serious crime than prostitution itself; in most cases it carries a mandatory prison sentence.

So, since part of the money being collected from this auction is going to the party organizers to help cover their costs, they could, theoretically, run afoul of these laws. I know this might sound ridiculous, but the law just doesn't have any sense of humour about this sort of thing. So all I'm saying is check it out before you do something that might possibly land someone in a lot of hot water.

Because of the issues above, most of the auctions I've seen use fake money instead of real money. Generally everyone who arrives at the party is given, say, $1000 in "monopoly money" just for walking through the door. And there might be games and so on during the party that offer participants a chance to win more money. They then take all of their winnings to the auction and apply it to bids.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Illtcklu]

You could make this an interesting game! Instead of money use FEATHERS and bid that way! The highest bid wins and is tickled by everyone with all the feathers bid for that person! Huh? Good idea or bad?

 

[TicklishSinner]

I think it sounds cool, I would love to be a ticklee but I dont live in Michigan

 

[Bagelfather]

auction

I've never participated in a tickling auction specifically, but I have participated in BDSM auctions. Perhaps I can offer some suggestions from that.

The first thing I'd suggest is that you have a quick chat with an attorney. I realize that you aren't intending it, but you MIGHT be running afoul of pandering laws if you use real money. The problem is that while tickling isn't sex, it is sexual in many cases (at least in the sense of being arousing). Most states' prostitution laws are written to cover anything that the people involved find sexually stimulating. The person who receives the money exchanged in such transactions can often be charged with pandering - pimping, essentially. That's a much more serious crime than prostitution itself; in most cases it carries a mandatory prison sentence.
Just my 2 cents.

It sounds like a good idea and if it wall went to charity it would be a lot easier to manage. Honestly the better way of running this is that you do not "win the right to do X with someone."

The auction I went to at Citadel gave everyone "dungeon dollars" and this was for attending only. In addition you did not have the right to do x, y, z, you won the right to negotiate a private scene with the person. If you could not negotiate that scene then it won't work out. Since you did not put up any money no hard feelings.

I don't take Red Mage's comment's as being mean as being "um he has a point." The chances of someone turning anyone over to the authority is low, but something not to ignore.

There is my penny of thought. If I can think of ideas to improve on this I will suggest them.

 

[Sultrybrunette]

I think its a fun idea but I honestly think this is a little late in the game and probably should have been brought up a month or so ago to give people time to save up money. If it really does happen I would be willing to volunteer. Anything to help our wonderful hosts and charity. Very wise words Redmage. Bagel, in reading the rules in the gathering section, I believe they have your concerns covered.

 

[tklcouple]

Thanks for the feedback

I appreciate all the feedback you have given. Any attorneys on the forum? I would really hate to have to approach my own attorney with the idea!

The hosts and I will put our heads together and some form of this activity will occur. I like the idea of the opportunity at a "negotiated private scene". Perhaps the donations to charity will be more voluntary but not linked to the scene but rather the "opportunity to negotiate" with the lee.

I am contemplating the idea of randomly filled envelopes of "monopoly money" at the door to avoid the whole cash/pandering thing - a low risk but real concern.

All those who wish to volunteer as ticklees, please email me at [email protected] with the following information:

Your real first name
What part or parts of you you are most likely to allow to be tickled
What forms of restraint you are open to if any
Whether you wish only men or only women or both to bid on you.

Thanks again!

Professor Tkl

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Cool idea, Prof. While I've never been to a gathering that's done this, I can easily see it working. I've heard of this being done in the BDSM community. You might try dropping some of those into that scene a note to see if they can give you more info. I'm sure there's someone out there who's already dealt with the legalities, etc.

The only thing I know is that you can't profit personally from something like this...or any gathering fees. So, doing something like passing along anything that's over and above your gathering expenses would likely be cool. Just be sure to keep records of all your monetary info.

Ann

 

[ViperGTS]

DAMNIT! Why can't you two be coming to NEST this year?

It's an awesome idea, but I agree with Redmage about not using real money...a noble cause, but too dangerous. There are other, safer ways to raise money for these events. Lord knows they need it...damn things are expensive.

I defenitely would like to bid on multiple lees....and bring IrishGirl or Kitten to help me. Do a group auction. :-D Would there be a rule against a group of people pooling their money together to collectively bid on and win a particular ticklee to take them as their new toy for an hour? GANG TICKLE!

I think we should try to incorporate this into NEST as well.

 

[ShadowTklr]

I appreciate all the feedback you have given. Any attorneys on the forum? I would really hate to have to approach my own attorney with the idea!

The hosts and I will put our heads together and some form of this activity will occur. I like the idea of the opportunity at a "negotiated private scene". Perhaps the donations to charity will be more voluntary but not linked to the scene but rather the "opportunity to negotiate" with the lee.

I am contemplating the idea of randomly filled envelopes of "monopoly money" at the door to avoid the whole cash/pandering thing - a low risk but real concern.

All those who wish to volunteer as ticklees, please email me at [email protected] with the following information:

Your real first name
What part or parts of you you are most likely to allow to be tickled
What forms of restraint you are open to if any
Whether you wish only men or only women or both to bid on you.

Thanks again!

Professor Tkl

Well, I'm not an attorney, but I am pretty familiar with charity organizations and fundraisers, and many of the laws that govern them, which this falls under.

The idea of Pandering is a real stretch here.

The legal definition of Pandering is to entice or induce a woman to become a prostitute.

The legal definition of Prostitution is the solicitation of sex in exchange for money.

The legal definition of a Pimp is someone who procures sexual partners for money, or who acts as an agent of prostitution.

I'm not sure exactly how Pandering became an idea relevant to your suggestion of the auction, but it is inapplicable.

What I would advise, however, is to make sure that you do not represent yourself or the gathering to anyone as a "Fund Raiser." This requires a permit.

Also,

You may not represent a specific charity or organization by name, otherwise you may be perceived to be working as an agent for that organization - can you say lawsuit?​

You may not advertise this auction to the general public.​

You may not use the words Raffle, Auction, Fund Raiser, Charity, etc. in the promotion of this gathering.​

You may not charge a fee for tickets or chances.​

You may not profit as a third party from the proceeds given for the participation of any participant in the "auction."​

Other than that, you're clear!

 

[ViperGTS]

The legal definition of Prostitution is the solicitation of sex in exchange for money.

[clarify] Or sexual acts. Tickling can be an extremely sexual act even if it is not intended to be. [/clarify]

 

[ShadowTklr]

[clarify] Or sexual acts. Tickling can be an extremely sexual act even if it is not intended to be. [/clarify]

Correction: Sexual acts falls under the category of "Sex." It needs no further clarification. Also, tickling does NOT fall under that category from a legal standpoint, whether or not it elicits sexual excitement. Nor does psychodrama, which may include acts of domination and submission for hire. Neither one is prostitution and BOTH are perfectly legal - EVEN for money.

 

[Redmage]

Well, I'm not an attorney, but I am pretty familiar with charity organizations and fundraisers, and many of the laws that govern them, which this falls under.

The idea of Pandering is a real stretch here.

The legal definition of Pandering is to entice or induce a woman to become a prostitute.

The legal definition of Prostitution is the solicitation of sex in exchange for money.

The legal definition of a Pimp is someone who procures sexual partners for money, or who acts as an agent of prostitution.

Here's a quick and dirty definition of these concepts, from a lawyer's website:

Prostitution: the profession of performing sexual acts for money. Prostitution is a crime throughout the United States, except for a few counties in the state of Nevada, where it is allowed in licensed houses of prostitution. Soliciting acts of prostitution is also a crime, called pandering or simply, soliciting. Pandering on behalf of a prostitute is called pimping.

So you see that pandering is not soliciting a woman to become a prostitute. It is soliciting an act of prostitution (that is, soliciting either the prostitute or the john to perform such an act). Another way of looking at it - which may be where you were starting - is finding someone to engage in an act of prostitution. Pimping is a special class of pandering, in which the solicitor seeks out customers on behalf of a prostitute. And prostitution is not defined as "sex for money," but rather sexual acts for money.

I've searched the Michigan Compiled Law database, and found only one set of definitions for "sexual acts." It's here. However it definitely includes things that tickling could be taken to cover:

"Sadomasochistic abuse" means either of the following:

(i) Flagellation or torture, real or simulated, for the purpose of real or simulated sexual stimulation or gratification, by or upon a person.

(ii) The condition, real or simulated, of being fettered, bound, or otherwise physically restrained for sexual stimulation or gratification of a person.

(o) "Sexual excitement" means the condition, real or simulated, of human male or female genitals in a state of real or simulated overt sexual stimulation or arousal.

So, if it includes any sort of physical restraint of the 'lee, and/or involves real or simulated sexual excitement, it is a sexual act under Michigan law.

These are all critical distinctions. Tickling is a "sexual act" to the extent that it's intended to be arousing for the participants. Direct genital contact is not necessary. A person or group who arranges an act of prostitution for someone else is committing pandering - specifically, pimping.

Correction: Sexual acts falls under the category of "Sex." It needs no further clarification. Also, tickling does NOT fall under that category from a legal standpoint, whether or not it elicits sexual excitement. Nor does psychodrama, which may include acts of domination and submission for hire. Neither one is prostitution and BOTH are perfectly legal - EVEN for money.

That's not entirely true. Professional dominatrices and submissives work in a legal grey area. They can be prosecuted for prostitution in most cases - the prosecutor may or may not win, depending on local case law and the jury's attitudes. What we see in practice is that in most large metro areas police and prosecutors don't bother, but that's not to say they can't.

That's why I don't think it's a stretch to apply these laws to a tickling auction in which actual cash is exchanged. The main saving grace would be that no one is very likely to turn them in. But why take the chance? That's why I'm recommending that if they want to go ahead with using real money, they should just ping an attorney who is professionally acquainted with the law in their area, and make sure they're covered. They might well be fine, but I think it's important enough to verify with a real expert.

 

[ViperGTS]

Correction: Sexual acts falls under the category of "Sex." It needs no further clarification.

Alright, just making sure.

Also, tickling does NOT fall under that category from a legal standpoint, whether or not it elicits sexual excitement.

You wanna make a bet?

Go to work and tickle a female co-worker who you're not very familiar with. I guarantee you'll get, at the LEAST, a written or verbal reprimand from your supervisor for Sexual Harassment, IF you don't get canned.

Tickling is a form of a sexual act in the eyes of the law.

The point is, use funny money. If you need to raise money, do this indirectly. Hold a raffle or game of chance, to enter into which you must pay a certain amount of money. If you win this game, or draw a certain number, or get a certain roll of the dice, etc, you win "TMF Funny Munny," which can be used to purchase toys, candy, other items, AND be used for a tickle auction at a gathering. I know that at NEST there are raffles for books, videos, magazines, etc that are all related to tickling.

 

[ShadowTklr]

RedMage (sorry, I forgot to quote),

I might agree with you if the intention of the auction were to solicit "customers" or "clients" to engage, for money in prostitution. However, that is not the case. So, the question to whether or not your dissection of the word prostitution is correct - yes, it is. Bravo on your part. Unfortunately, and without any real smuggness intended, your argument falls victim to the popular retort "and if my Grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon."

Let's try and keep things as close to the intentions of the original post as possible. For all intents and purposes, Pandering is NOT an issue with regards to this kind of activity at a closed gathering whereby the general public is not invited, or exposed to the goings on. The suggestion of an auction falls much closer to a charity fundraiser function than that of prostitution - by any definition.

 

[ShadowTklr]

You wanna make a bet?

Go to work and tickle a female co-worker who you're not very familiar with. I guarantee you'll get, at the LEAST, a written or verbal reprimand from your supervisor for Sexual Harassment, IF you don't get canned.

Tickling is a form of a sexual act in the eyes of the law.

You're confusing issues. Sexual harrassment does not equate to a sexual act. Persistently asking a co-worker for a date is sexual harrassment, but it is not a sexual act. Again, before this thing swings way outside of the realm of Tklcouples original post, let's suffice to say that I don't think that's what he had in mind.

The point is, use funny money. If you need to raise money, do this indirectly. Hold a raffle or game of chance, to enter into which you must pay a certain amount of money. If you win this game, or draw a certain number, or get a certain roll of the dice, etc, you win "TMF Funny Munny," which can be used to purchase toys, candy, other items, AND be used for a tickle auction at a gathering. I know that at NEST there are raffles for books, videos, magazines, etc that are all related to tickling.

This is an EXCELLENT IDEA. And you have already seconded my point about being able to do certain things at closed gatherings without the fear of legal reprisals. Raffles typically require permits, however, the permit police were not knocking down the doors of the NEST. Great idea, Viper.

 

[Redmage]

I might agree with you if the intention of the auction were to solicit "customers" or "clients" to engage, for money in prostitution. However, that is not the case. So, the question to whether or not your dissection of the word prostitution is correct - yes, it is. Bravo on your part. Unfortunately, and without any real smuggness intended, your argument falls victim to the popular retort "and if my Grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon."

I'm really not sure that's correct, ShadowTklr. If prostitution is the commission of sexual acts for money, and if tickling is a sexual act, and if this auction is intended to bring people together for tickling, in exchange for money, then both prostitution and pandering seem to be on the table.

Here's what it comes down to, for me: One of us (you or me) is probably somewhere close to right here. I don't have a personal stake it in either way, but it's important for the organizers to know which of us it is. The only way for them to really find out for sure is to consult a true professional, which we agree neither of us is. So I'd highly recommend that they check this out with an attorney, or arrange it so that no real money changes hands.

 

[ShadowTklr]

I'm really not sure that's correct, ShadowTklr. If prostitution is the commission of sexual acts for money, and if tickling is a sexual act, and if this auction is intended to bring people together for tickling, in exchange for money, then both prostitution and pandering seem to be on the table.

Here's what it comes down to, for me: One of us (you or me) is probably somewhere close to right here. I don't have a personal stake it in either way, but it's important for the organizers to know which of us it is. The only way for them to really find out for sure is to consult a true professional, which we agree neither of us is. So I'd highly recommend that they check this out with an attorney, or arrange it so that no real money changes hands.

I wholeheartedly agree, which is why I thought Vipers and your suggestion to use phoney money would probably put the issue to rest, even without the consultation of a lawyer. Well, it was a fun discussion anyway, I think.

 

[ViperGTS]

I would rather, instead of consulting a legal professional, we just use my idea of TMF Funny Munny.

I agree...very good discussion. I'm glad we kept it from getting too far out of hand, heh.

 

[tklcouple]

Thanks for all the feedback!

Wow! Nothing like a point of law to incite discussion!

Allow me to first give my profound thanks to Redmage, Shadowtickler and others who have made very well constructed and eloquent points. While I have not delved into the knowledge of prostitution law in Michigan, I have spent on other issues more time in a courtroom that I care to (testifying as an expert witness in cases of violent altercation, drunk driving, child abuse, etc. Yuck!). What I DO know about law is that is grey by its very nature.

That said the gathering hosts and I are as we speak working on addressing this problem. The "funny munny" idea (as Viper put it) may very well be the safest in terms of legal issues. That said it does nothing to defray costs of the event, which end up costing anyone hosting a gathering about $700-$1000 and up (no joke, ask anyone who has done it including yours truly). While the charity thing is a good idea, the whole license issue, etc. is sticky and we are considering scrapping it. The "auction" (is it OK if I put it in quotes, Shadow? - I'm serious) will still go on in some way, shape or form.

Anyone know of a site where I can get some legal advice on the quick? Anyone on the TMF a laywer barred in Michigan?

Thanks again to ALL of you and we'll hope to see you at the Michigan gathering if not this time, then in the fall.

Professor Tkl

 

[ShadowTklr]

Wow! Nothing like a point of law to incite discussion!

Allow me to first give my profound thanks to Redmage, Shadowtickler and others who have made very well constructed and eloquent points. While I have not delved into the knowledge of prostitution law in Michigan, I have spent on other issues more time in a courtroom that I care to (testifying as an expert witness in cases of violent altercation, drunk driving, child abuse, etc. Yuck!). What I DO know about law is that is grey by its very nature.

That said the gathering hosts and I are as we speak working on addressing this problem. The "funny munny" idea (as Viper put it) may very well be the safest in terms of legal issues. That said it does nothing to defray costs of the event, which end up costing anyone hosting a gathering about $700-$1000 and up (no joke, ask anyone who has done it including yours truly). While the charity thing is a good idea, the whole license issue, etc. is sticky and we are considering scrapping it. The "auction" (is it OK if I put it in quotes, Shadow? - I'm serious) will still go on in some way, shape or form.

Anyone know of a site where I can get some legal advice on the quick? Anyone on the TMF a laywer barred in Michigan?

Thanks again to ALL of you and we'll hope to see you at the Michigan gathering if not this time, then in the fall.

Professor Tkl

I'm afraid I don't know where you might be able to go to get this kind of information on the fly, but it ocurred to me that you can probably skirt this entire issue another way.

Perhaps instead of creating an auction, per se, you could create a game of some kind, and then charge a fee for all participants, including the ones to be tickled. By charging everyone, there could be no claim of anyone being used for anything improper. I don't know. I'm getting hungry. I can't think when I'm hungry.

 

[bumblebee729]

What a great idea hehe!

 

[Bagelfather]

But what about...

The question, if I am not mistaken, is what are the laws in the state where such an auction would take place. In California I do not think it would count as prostiution.

There are places here for BDSM exploration and there is no sexual contact and money is exchaned. Arguably there is sexual energy and some places may allow time for someone (top, bottom, or otherwise) to release that energy away from the person involved.

I think it would be good if one of the pro dommes or subs gave some feedback on this issue as they have more direct experience in it.

If there is no sexual contact I think it is okay in most places. The issue that Citadel deals with is if you paid real money for the auction then you'd EXPECT the scene you imagined and it wouldn't be necessarily negotiated. Even scenes at dungeons I take it are negotiated. The funny money alleviates fears and hurt feelings*. With an auction you spend the money and then realize you aren't getting what you paid for. A negotiated scene at a dungeon means no money is transacted until you have negotiated a scene so there is no loss of money and less likely hurt feelings.

I dunno if I have money for an auction, I need to save up all my twenties for Lindyhopper

Sorry hon I had to tease you about that only because you're my friend

*If you are negotiating for hurt feelings that is an entirely different issue.

 

[tklcouple]

One final thought

Thank you so much everybody for all of your input! After putting our heads together and trying to debug the whole thing we have decided to table the "auction" idea for now, due to time constraints and other reasons.

That said this Michigan Party will still be a Gathering to remember, so we will see you there!

With thanks and best wishes,

Professor Tkl

 

[natural tickler]

that is the best news I've heard all day. So it looks like I'm safe.....for now