True Stories section (any problems there?)

[The Internet]

I was just about to post something in the True Stories; back in the day, there was only the Stories section. Under my old account (nontkl), I lobbied hard to get a True Stories section and I never considered there was any problem with it.

But a TMF member told me, both on the board and off, that he found True Stories morally repugnant because it wasn't fair to the people in the stories.

My feeling is 1.)people are envisioning the situation, they don't know who these people are or what they look like and 2.) we're trading notes about our common fetish and experience, telling the only people in the world who would understand what it was like.

Additionally - and amazingly - I had a bizarre interaction with a mod quite a while ago, in which I had asked that an extremely innocuous story be moved from the "Stories" section into the "True Stories" section (as it was a True Story that was written before there was a True Stories section, and I had wanted to bump it for purposes that related to a more recent story, and tie them all together). The story was a guy was at a punk show, overheard two young women recounting a tickle experience that had happened the night before, one of them tickled the other and bumped into the writer of the story. She turned around, apologized, shyly explaining to him that she had just been tickled....and he said it was all right and gave her a flirty poke to her tummy, making her giggle for a split second before they went back to watching the show.

To put it mildly, I was taken to task for even suggesting this, that this was non-consensual, and basically, such stories should not be posted.

I can't tell you how many 'lees I've spoken to, talking about their dating lives with vanillas, and how many times they were PRAYING that something like that would happen to them. One 'lee I know REFUSED to tell ANY of the guys she dated about the fetish: she wanted them to do it on their own initiative, and never suspect she liked it. Telling them would ruin it for her, and was not an option. Tickling is part of flirting, or so I thought. Most of my stories that I have posted are about scenarios exactly like the one I described, where I'm flirting with someone, or fooling around with them and I take a chance and tickle them. The idea that tickling only exists in the contrived setting of a bondage session is a little odd to me, but hey....that's why I'm opening this thread up.

What do YOU think? Is it unfair to the people in the story? Should tickling, as it happens in the world of flirting and dating, be off-limits for archiving here on the Forum because a 'ler might have "taken a chance" and tickled without prior consent?

I have a ton of stories already written and a list of memories still to write out....I am also working on multiple interview projects with other TMF members about their experiences. Should I abandon that ship and just focus on fiction writing? As I re-evaluate the "media" I post on the Tickling Media Forum, I'm open to people's arguments.

Your thoughts, please!

 

[lostphilosopher]

I can understand why someone might view the posting of personal, often intimate, stories as uncomfortable. My feeling is that as long as the poster is being sensitive to the anonymity of others involved, as well their age and consent regarding any activities described, then there's nothing inherently wrong with posting true stories.

That being said, I don't think people should be posting true stories bragging about nonconsensual tickle torture, or worse.

Personally, I glance over the "True Stories" section occasionally but really don't pay that much attention to it. If I read a story or watch a video with elements that make me uncomfortable, I simply stop watching/reading it and move on.

"To find yourself, think for yourself." - Socrates

 

[omnifeller]

Same. As long as you change their names, I think you're fine. And to not have any more of your true stories, Internet? I would be a sad sad TMFer. And that interaction you had with the mod? Sounds preposterous to me. No harm in posting about a little incident like that.

 

[Studious_Hustler]

I don't think people should be posting true stories bragging about nonconsensual tickle torture, or worse.

^ This ^

Fairly recently, I read a story where the writer seemed to be implicitly bragging about his Nietzsche-esque moral superiority for continuing to tickle a woman when she was asking him to stop, and wasn't he brave for asserting his will to boner or something something something. Never mind that it was a situation where the victim would have likely suffered more serious consequences for reporting him, so he was obviously free to take advantage of her. The story, and the guy's whole vibe, were off-putting.

However!

Stories like that one are vanishingly rare. Apart from those rare anomalies, I love the True Stories forum, and, guess what, y'all, there is nothing wrong with mutually-enjoyed flirting. In fact, it's a good thing!

Specifically, OP's stories tend to involve a thoughtful, self-aware sense of "I might have done things differently today" -- and, to be clear, they never relate reprehensible actions. OP's stories are great. If you haven't read them, go check them out.

To summarize:
1. Openness to self-critique is important when writing one's stories
2. Stories about mutually-enjoyed tickle-flirting are great

 

[Wade]

As someone whose main output on this site is the True Stories section, I'll confirm that I've considered the question of whether it's appropriate or fair to post material there that involves other people. My conclusion was that authors, essayists and journalists draw on things that happen to them for their published writing -- sometimes with the other parties' permission, sometimes not. And for all I know the other people involved in my recollections have recounted anecdotes that included me in conversation or on Facebook or comment threads, which I feel is their right.

Also, I think it helps that nobody who wasn't in the room when these things happened would ever recognize the other people in my stories from my descriptions, so in that sense there's no unwanted public revelations about them involved.

But I agree it's a legitimate question, and one I've wrestled with periodically.

 

[Wolf]

Tickling is a pretty standard part of flirting and dating, regardless of whether it involves anyone having a fetish; it's not a big deal. Most people I've known are pretty familiar with people using ticking as a way to signal that they are interested in physical contact on more than a casual level. The chances of someone finding out they're the subject of a True Story is pretty slim.

When it comes to consent, that's really an issue decided by the people involved in the interaction.

 

[hopefulscrambl]

I deliberatly alter names, descriptions and circumstances so that they can't be tracked back to the original, for exactly the reason of privacy. May be a bit extreme I suppose, but the same principle holds. As long as they're anonymous, I'm still not sure it's great, but it's at least ok in terms of just posting these. After all, for all we know, you made them all up and they never happened. I guess it's like talking about how hot people are are among vanilla people- a little sleazy, perhaps, but ultimately harmless.

In terms of non-consensual- almost all IRL tickling is non-consensual in the fetish sense, and it's fine. If you tie someone to a bad and tickle them while they break down in tears, sure, don't do that bullshit without formal consent. But playfully tickling someone's foot without asking first is fine. These aren't tickle sessions and aren't held to the same rules as tickle sessions.

 

[lostphilosopher]

I guess what I mean by "nonconsensual" is anything beyond playful/flirtatious that violates a persons physical and/or mental well being.

 

[Yote]

As long as you keep the anonymity of the people involved, I think you're fine. You see it all the time, writers changing people's names to hide there identity. And the chances of someone recognizing who the strangers are in a true story is very slim.

I agree with the problem of nonconsensual true stories. I've come across a few before where there's clearly a lack of consent or the tickler is taking things too far. I wish those kinds of stories didn't make it here, but if you don't like it, you just have to move on.

I understand your concern though, and it's an interesting point for discussion. We should keep the True Stories section and be responsible with what we post in it. I've read lots of great stories there and it would be a shame if I couldn't read people's experiences anymore. Including yours!

 

[Wolf]

There are already content guidelines for the story forums, but beyond those, if we start trying to decide what's consensual and what's not in a story, (even so-called "True Stories", because memory is a fluid and fallible thing) that can be problematic.

 

[The Internet]

Wow, what intelligently reasoned and considered responses, every single one had something really great to say and I, for one, have a clear conscience, lol. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share their thoughts. (And thanks OmniFeller and Studious Hustler for the really nice words, I wasn't banking on that when I made the thread!)

All the best, and stay safe.

 

[Enzo_Noir]

i grappled with this quandary for years before recently deciding to post some of my experiences. i came to the conclusion that as long as i did everything in my power to protect my subjects' anonymity that it was completely ethical for me to share stories of situations that actually happened to me, besides i'm sure they've told all their friends about this wild guy loved to tickle them.

 

[brotherted]

Your thoughts, please!

Oh my. Makes me want to re-watch Can We Take a Joke? on Amazon Prime.

Any legitimately anonymous true story ought to be allowed to be posted. Then, if I don't like what the story seems to promote, I'll explain why it's wrong, not argue for its deletion.

That's what's so healthy about interactivity. if someone were to "brag" about what the rest of us would call bad behavior, enough other people would denounce it that the whole cycle would be far healthier to the original poster than it would have been to artificially repress him from telling it in the first place.

In other words, fight bad speech with good speech, not by attempts to suppress the bad speech as a subjective bad speech police, driving it underground instead.

So provided there's no doxing or threats, support #FreeSpeech, in keeping with the long-established "clear and present danger" standards.

 

[Myriads]

Speaking to the concept of consent in posting media here on the forum:

We feel that people have a right to control their images, and thus pictures and clips where people have not agreed to distribution on will be removed as a rule. Simply put no one should have an image of themself on a fetish site without their knowledge and permission.

Stories are different form of media. They are a representation of an internal view of a person of an event that they witnessed or participated in. This is not a direct representation of another person, it's a representation of the writers view of a person. It's not warranted the same protections that an image or clip of that person would be. So such things get to stay. We will note that if you identify the person by name, or other distinct ways then the work will be subject to removal. At one point there was a period where people liked to write fanfic involving other forum members. We required said persons permission to allow those to be posted. They had a right to control thier image in those cases as they were identifiable. But a generic story doesn't do that, so they stay.

As to the story themselves being 'wrong' or indicating behavior that is not sensible or proper, that we leave for people to decide for themselves and comment upon. One can always say they feel that the activity depicted was something they consider not cool in a respectful way.

Myriads

 

[Studious_Hustler]

if someone were to "brag" about what the rest of us would call bad behavior, enough other people would denounce it that the whole cycle would be far healthier to the original poster than it would have been to artificially repress him from telling it in the first place.

In other words, fight bad speech with good speech, not by attempts to suppress the bad speech as a subjective bad speech police, driving it underground instead.

As to the story themselves being 'wrong' or indicating behavior that is not sensible or proper, that we leave for people to decide for themselves and comment upon. One can always say they feel that the activity depicted was something they consider not cool in a respectful way.

Yes, yes, and yes! If my previous post wasn't clear on this point, these folks have clarified it perfectly.

 

[brotherted]

And one other thing....
Since when have we banned or been afraid of stories with bad behavior?

On this site, some want to ban stories of non-consensual tickling? Okay. And yet meanwhile, every year there are massive Hollywood movies and high-budget TV shows about war, serial murder, mass murder, rape, incest, slavery and genocide? So we live in a culture surrounded by those stories, but non-consensual tickling stories ought to be considered worse? Really? Like "Sure vicious beatings of slaves in Twelve Years a Slave and Nazi death camps in Schindler's List are one thing, but a story about tickling my date for 10 seconds in the car without her advanced permission, when maybe I can tell she likes it after one second, is just a bridge too far"? How many people will be convinced by that logic?

Us grown ups ought to all be able to make up our own minds about what feels fine and what feels wrong in stories -- and then discuss it. If you don't admit there are gray areas here, you're just not being honest. (And spoiler: You not agreeing with me shouldn't be legitimate grounds for me to cancel culture or silence you.)

 

[chicago]

This is tmf, not Hollywood lol

 

[Wade]

This is tmf, not Hollywood lol

Whaaaaaaat? Then why do I keep getting into full costume and makeup before I log on?

 

[Wolf]

And one other thing....
Since when have we banned or been afraid of stories with bad behavior?

On this site, some want to ban stories of non-consensual tickling? Okay. And yet meanwhile, every year there are massive Hollywood movies and high-budget TV shows about war, serial murder, mass murder, rape, incest, slavery and genocide? So we live in a culture surrounded by those stories, but non-consensual tickling stories ought to be considered worse? Really? Like "Sure vicious beatings of slaves in Twelve Years a Slave and Nazi death camps in Schindler's List are one thing, but a story about tickling my date for 10 seconds in the car without her advanced permission, when maybe I can tell she likes it after one second, is just a bridge too far"? How many people will be convinced by that logic?

Us grown ups ought to all be able to make up our own minds about what feels fine and what feels wrong in stories -- and then discuss it. If you don't admit there are gray areas here, you're just not being honest. (And spoiler: You not agreeing with me shouldn't be legitimate grounds for me to cancel culture or silence you.)

Can we cancel the false assumption that anyone considers playfully tickling a romantic partner to be non-consensual?

 

[brotherted]

Can we cancel the false assumption that anyone considers playfully tickling a romantic partner to be non-consensual?

You don't think anyone considers that non-consensual? Anyone? I respectfully disagree. I've even read it here in this forum. (And by the way, I wrote "date," which isn't quite the same as what you changed it to, "romantic partner.")

The fact is if a female and I are having fun on a first date, and I were to give her a one second poke on the side, it literally is non-consensual. I realize on this site, that term has come to mean something different than it's definition, i.e. closer to "unwelcome" than actually non-consensual. But are there any people who'd argue that the one second poke ought to require advanced permission, even in the context of a date? I think so, sure.

But the larger point is that these lines and definitions are utterly subjective, which makes talking about them all the more valuable. Maybe one of our perspectives on this will evolve over time through conversation. Maybe it'll be me. (Or maybe you.)

 

[Wolf]

You don't think anyone considers that non-consensual? Anyone? I respectfully disagree. I've even read it here in this forum. (And by the way, I wrote "date," which isn't quite the same as what you changed it to, "romantic partner.")

The fact is if a female and I are having fun on a first date, and I were to give her a one second poke on the side, it literally is non-consensual. I realize on this site, that term has come to mean something different than it's definition, i.e. closer to "unwelcome" than actually non-consensual. But are there any people who'd argue that the one second poke ought to require advanced permission, even in the context of a date? I think so, sure.

But the larger point is that these lines and definitions are utterly subjective, which makes talking about them all the more valuable. Maybe one of our perspectives on this will evolve over time through conversation. Maybe it'll be me. (Or maybe you.)

I do absolutely agree those lines are subjective, and you may be mistaking me for someone who takes the opposite position from yours. If you take umbrage at someone using the words "creepy" or "rapey", don't characterize people who like enthusiastic consent as being puritanical.

 

[toyou444]

Speaking to the concept of consent in posting media here on the forum:

We feel that people have a right to control their images, and thus pictures and clips where people have not agreed to distribution on will be removed as a rule. Simply put no one should have an image of themself on a fetish site without their knowledge and permission.

Stories are different form of media. They are a representation of an internal view of a person of an event that they witnessed or participated in. This is not a direct representation of another person, it's a representation of the writers view of a person. It's not warranted the same protections that an image or clip of that person would be. So such things get to stay. We will note that if you identify the person by name, or other distinct ways then the work will be subject to removal. At one point there was a period where people liked to write fanfic involving other forum members. We required said persons permission to allow those to be posted. They had a right to control thier image in those cases as they were identifiable. But a generic story doesn't do that, so they stay.

As to the story themselves being 'wrong' or indicating behavior that is not sensible or proper, that we leave for people to decide for themselves and comment upon. One can always say they feel that the activity depicted was something they consider not cool in a respectful way.

Myriads

As usual Myriads you are the cool voice of reason.

Glad you are still here (along with the others still running the ship.)

~ toyou

 

[The Internet]

Well, that's great.....now that I've heard from everyone, including the two who gave me the initial grief about it (see my OP), I feel pretty good about the two stories I just posted. Happy to see they've come around, changed their tune, or that maybe I just misunderstood them in the first place.

To celebrate: here's the ancient story I was attempting to migrate into the True Stories section and bump (in conjunction with a thread that I ended up scrapping) but was "strongly advised" not to....in fact, I got my head bitten off for even suggesting it. This is what passes/passed for a "non-consensual story".... a more innocuous little story I couldn't imagine. It's not a masterpiece of writing, and will take about two seconds to read....like I said, it was only going to be bumped in relation to a thread I was working on.

http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?4615-At-the-punk-show

For me, it's the tickle talk between the two vanilla girls that was so fun and interesting, not the "non-consensual" part. Anyways, the guy and the girl he flirts with end up exchanging names and chatting and, as far as I know, lived happily ever after so.....no harm done. This thread is from before there was a True Stories section; true stories only occasionally popped up in the Stories section back in those days. I thought why let it get lost in the sauce?

Thanks everyone for weighing in.