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What is Terrorism?

db881

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Found this article; thought it was interesting.

Face The Truth About Terrorism
By Terrell E. Arnold
10-23-4

In the wake of 9/11, Americans struggled with a baffling question: Why
did they do that to us? The answer we got from the Bush administration
was the terrorists "hate us because of our freedom" That answer was
wrong, careless, even simple-minded, but at the moment it inspired us
to get behind a plan to fight back. We welcomed the invasion of
Afghanistan because we were told the kingpin of al Qaida, Osama bin
Laden, who was said to have master-minded the 9/11 attacks, was holed
up there under the protection of that country's ruling Muslim
extremists, the Taliban. To go after him and his cohorts, the
administration launched the War on Terrorism.

Now, over three years later, President Bush himself has indicated we
have variously disposed of several thousand al Qaida members,
including key bin Laden advisers, although few have gone to trial.
However, terrorism experts estimate the organization not only is
substantially regenerated, but its appeal to other disgruntled
activists has been greatly increased by American actions. Meanwhile
hatred of America or dislike of its policies has grown remarkably in
most of the world. . And we still need a good answer to that question:
Why did they do that to us? But we need a forward-looking answer: Why
might they do that again?

Just Where Are We On This?

We are stuck in this odd position, like a captured fly whirling on a
straight pin, because the answer we were given to the question was
incorrect at the time, but since 9/11 our waging of the so-called War
on Terrorism has greatly increased the number of people who may indeed
hate us. Before we get in any deeper, it is vital to find workable
answers to leading questions: What is terrorism? Who is a terrorist?
Why does terrorism exist? Does the War on Terrorism address those
issues? Maybe the answers will enable us to see"what seems patent to
many others--why they did it, and may do it again. Just possibly we
might learn what to do about it.

To get there, we must be absolutely realistic. That means we must put
on the table our own actions and those of our allies, such as Israel,
Indonesia, the Philippines, and Colombia, alongside other acts of
violence now troubling the Middle East and the rest of the world.

No matter who wins in November, the next President must have answers,
because our country is losing too many lives and spending too many of
our national resources, including the goodwill of most of the world,
as we fight in Iraq to win an illegal war, blindly support Israeli
expulsion of the Palestinian people, and, under the flag of the War on
Terrorism, attempt to suppress people whose motive is to expel illegal
invaders. While occupying and destroying Iraqi cities, our government,
and likely the coalition members, appear unwilling to define the
enemy. What Is Terrorism?

This seems an odd question after we already have had War on Terrorism
for nearly three years, but we need agreed definitions of (1) what is
terrorism, and (2) who is a terrorist? None of the official
definitions of terrorism appear to serve us here. For most of the past
100 years, the international community has failed to agree on a
definition. In 1937, the League of Nations proposed the following, but
it was never adopted:

"All criminal acts directed against a state and intended or calculated
to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a
group of persons or the general public."

The FBI adopted its own working definition, one that is more
comprehensive than the League's:

"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or
property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian
population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or
social objectives."

Brian Jenkins, an experienced counter-terrorism professional, states:
"Terrorism is the use or threatened use of force designed to bring
about political change."

While the FBI and Brian Jenkins define the term without specifying a
group of actors, the State Department narrows the definition thus:
Terrorism is "premeditated, politically-motivated violence perpetrated
against non-combatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine
agents, (emphasis added) usually intended to influence an audience."
In short, as State sees it, terrorism is violence carried out against
civilians by groups who are not officials or employees of a
government. The State Department annual report, Patterns of Global
Terrorism, is compiled around data that fit this definition.

The United Nations, while charged with global responsibilities for
dealing with violence, has yet to agree on a definition of terrorism.
Most likely that is because the 15 member Security Council cannot
agree.

The ultimate definition, voiced by some unknown wag, is: "I will know
it when I see it." The average definition of terrorism worldwide is at
this level of generality and therefore virtually useless.

Do Examples Define It?

Examples would define it, if we dealt with the problem fairly, but
fairness seldom enters into the definition. Are people who oppose the
occupation in Iraq terrorists? Or are they just victims of an unwanted
occupation with some spirit left? Are the Chechens, who have been
trying for centuries to gain independence from Russia, terrorists or
just bone-headed and sometimes ruthless nationalists? Are the
Palestinians, who have fought over fifty years for dear life to keep
from being forced out of their ancestral homeland, terrorists? Is a
Palestinian woman who, out of desperation, blows herself up in an
Israeli street, taking several Israelis with her, a terrorist? If she
is, why isn,t an IDF tank driver who uses his cannon to destroy a
Palestinian home with the family still in it? Are the IDF soldiers who
have put bullets into the heads of more than 200 unarmed teenagers
since the current Intifada--the Palestinian uprising"that began in
2000 in any way distinguishable from terrorists? Where do US pilots
who dropped cluster bombs on Samarra, and killed more civilians than
militants in Iraq a few weeks ago, fit in the definition?

One can maneuver through this minefield like a contortionist dodging
knives in an arcade. But it is essential at all times to keep in mind
that the definition of terrorism is at the will of the user. As a
four-star Air Force General, who was speaking on Vietnam, once told a
National War College assembly: "Where you stand depends on where you
sit." That was a cynical portrayal of bureaucratic loyalties, but in
essence your role defines your terms for you. Crass, but useful,
because it alerts you to pay attention to sources:

Who Is Talking, And Why?

The most troublesome issue relates to who uses the term "terrorism"
and for what purpose. There is an intellectual trap here, because the
more cases the term can be defined to cover, the more broadly based is
justification for the so-called War on Terrorism. The converse is, of
course, also true. That leads to such travesties as classifying the
Iraqis who fight to expel invaders from their country as terrorists.
That includes outsiders who for whatever reason come in to help. It
also leads to stretches of the truth such as "al Qaida terrorists are
responsible for the uprising in Fallujah", when in reality even senior
US officers in Iraq say that only a small number of fighters there are
not Sunnis and sympathizers who are trying to take their city and
country back.

The most insidious use of the term is to refuse recognition, de-frock
or de-legitimize an opposition group or its members. That problem
hovers over the Chechen rebellion. Putin was happy with the west when
he was able to treat his response to the centuries-old Chechen fight
for independence from Russia as part of the war on terrorism. He is
now unhappy indeed, because recent US and British statements suggest
he should negotiate a settlement. The mere idea of negotiating, Putin
knows, would convey legitimacy to the Chechen rebels.

Where Is The Hang Up?

As a general rule, the politics of what terrorists do are easier to
manage than the politics of what terrorists want. Slash and burn
tactics make the actors look bad, no matter what their motives.
Goading them to do more mayhem is, of course, helpful to keeping the
terrorist label on them. Actions to punish the actors for such tactics
are likely to be politically popular, while actions to respond to
their agenda may involve a politically unpopular re-division of
national pies. As a general rule, it seems easier to keep a society
polarized against a trouble making out-group than it is to persuade
interested parties to engage them.

That is certainly true in the Chechen case. In fact, negotiations
conducted with Russian officials by Chechen moderates during the past
few years appear to have reached the verge of a settlement. However,
not long before the recent terrorist attacks, and more than likely
among the motives for those attacks, Vladimir Putin is reported to
have denied that any such talks had occurred and to have disavowed any
agreement. What he did was hand the Chechen ball back to the
hardliners. Their response enables Putin to continue calling the
Chechen rebels terrorists, and after the Beslan massacre, there is
said to be broad Russian popular support for doing so. In this case,
the Chechen rebels have set back their own cause.

The same is true in the Israeli case. Typically and almost totally
one-sidedly the Israelis treat the Palestinians as less than equal
people who are aggressors and themselves as perennial victims. People
who do not buy this line are accused of being anti-Semitic, or Jew
haters. American media, more than any other, go along with this line,
seldom if ever reporting on the daily crimes the Israeli Defense Force
commits against Palestinians, but always reporting what the
Palestinians do in response. Powerful lobbies in the US, such as AIPAC
and ADL work constantly to prevent any criticism of Israeli actions.
This is the case because Israeli leadership and Israeli supporters
know that it cannot do any of the criminal things Israel does
(targeted assassinations, destruction of homes and villages, expulsion
of farmers from their land, killings of teenagers) if those actions
are held up for international review. Under the Israeli model, as
practiced from the beginning by leaders such as Ariel Sharon, no one
can be allowed to assert that the Palestinians have any legitimate
grievances or rights, because if those rights and grievances are
recognized, Israel cannot go on doing what it has done consistently
for fifty years to dispossess the Palestinian people. As brave souls
such as Paul Findley and Cynthia McKinney have found, one can lose his
or her job by questioning the sacrosanct Israeli posture.

If one looks at the situations of the sixty or so terrorists groups
annually written up in the State Department report, there are
variations around the foregoing themes, but the norm is some version
of them. A perverse result of the alliances the US has created to
fight the War on Terrorism is that governments are encouraged to treat
their dissidents as terrorists, not to negotiate with them on
resolving differences. This is, after all, a war!

Real Life Cases Are The Hard Part

Terrorism in the abstract is perhaps easier to define than it is in
the specific case. That is because the abstract definition carries no
freight. The accusation in a specific case has to be dealt with,
because when all is said and done, at least a crime has been
committed. But here the FBI definition presents us with a judgment
problem because it implies that force may lawfully be used to
"intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any
segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."

There is a fence here that depends on the legal standing of the
intimidator. Palestinians, Iraqis, Chechens, Colombia's revolutionary
armed forces, the Philippines, Abu Sayyaf, Indonesia's Jemaah
Islamiyah, and many others face this problem every day, because the
characterization of events rests with the party who has legal
standing. A key element of the War on Terrorism is to deny such legal
standing to any so-called terrorist or terrorist group, because once a
group achieves legal standing, e.g., as a recognized insurgency such
as the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, the group enters a world where
recognition requires conformity to the rules of war, notably the
Geneva conventions. The politics of what the "former" terrorists want
take over.

Former US Ambassador Ronald Spiers in a recent article (Foreign
Service Journal, September 2004) stated that terrorism is a tactic and
one cannot really make war on a tactic. True enough. But
counter-terrorism is also a tactic with component approaches such as:
(1) Do not negotiate with terrorists; (2) capture, confine or kill the
terrorists; (3) do not make any concessions. These are the essences of
US counter-terrorism policy. They do not add up to a strategy for
dealing with global terrorism, because they collectively deal only
with the perpetrators of attacks.

Where Does Iraq Fit In This Picture?

How legitimate are US uses of force? The FBI definition of terrorism
implicitly states, as cited earlier, that force be used by the
government to "intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian
population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or
social objectives." Strictly speaking, by the FBI definition, those
are lawful terror tactics. How do they work, however, in a situation
such as Iraq where the United Nations, as well as many other national
governments, declared the invasion illegal under international law?
The FBI definition states that terrorism is the "unlawful" use of
force. If the invasion is illegal, the US use of force in Iraq is
unlawful; therefore, it is terrorism as defined by our national law
enforcement agency.

Within the past few weeks, Muslim clerics in Iraq, viewing the
wholesale destruction wrought by US forces on the city of Samarra,
stated through a spokesman: "It is the latest in a series of many
criminal acts perpetrated by the greatest terrorist nation on the face
of the earth: the United States." The notion that what is terrorism
depends on where one stands is truly forceful in such circumstances.

Why Is This So Hard?

The elephant in this room is the persistent unwillingness of political
leadership to look at the root causes of terrorism. No two situations
are precisely the same. The fact of present-day national boundaries,
and probably universal reluctance to change them is one factor.
Certainly the Iraqi Kurds are frustrated by this fact. Existence of a
selfish and distinct ethnic, religious, economic, or cultural majority
in many unstable societies is another. Widespread conditions of
scarcity, accompanied by hunger, poverty and disease, are commonplaces
of the countries involved. Population groups who seek to go their own
way are often a critical factor. Variously unrepresentative forms of
government in many countries generate a rising frustration and anger.
The stubborn unwillingness of leadership to bend, to make concessions,
is certainly a major feature of most situations.

Chechen, Iraq, Indonesia, Palestine, and other trouble spots on the
terrorism/insurgency landscape are among most serious examples.
Judging from countries that have had significant internal conflicts
over the past decade, easily a quarter of current nation states are in
this kind of trouble.

The War on Terrorism Is Self-Defeating

The reason the War is self-defeating goes with the motivations of
terrorists. Such attacks are designed typically to get the attention
of a target group, usually a government and/or its elite. For reasons
of simplicity and safety, terrorists try to mount attacks that
minimize their exposure while maximizing their message. Thus
bombs--that always get attention-- are the most common tool. But if
the target group or leaders do not respond properly"that is they
respond aggressively rather than seek dialogue or resolution of
differences--the choice of means tends to escalate: Bigger bombs. More
casualties. In those terms, the more harshly the War on Terrorism is
pursued and the more cruelly captured dissidents are treated, the more
likely that terrorist weapon choices will escalate toward weapons of
mass destruction. Such a war is self-defeating and may even prove to
be a self-fulfilling prophecy. The ultimate attention getters may be
used to make the point: You people are not listening!

How Effective Is Force?

Forceful solutions are not working. Russian efforts to squelch Chechen
and other Caucasus drives for autonomy have not worked for many
centuries. US led efforts to keep Iraq together as a single state are
unlikely to work unless the three major groups, Sunni, Shiite and
Kurdish, themselves reach a workable accord. Indonesia faces a similar
future of growing conflict among peoples (such as the Aceh) who seek
fully to participate or to develop in their own ways. In addition to
competing Indian and Pakistani claims to Kashmir, the Free (Azad)
Kashmir movement wants to be alone. Current Sharon designs on
expelling Palestinians entirely from the West Bank and Gaza will be
fraught with conflict that may destroy Israel itself, and Palestinians
as well as sympathetic third parties are likely to help. Many
Sub-Saharan African countries are presently fragmenting under the
pressures of disaffected tribal groups and competing power seekers.

All of these and many other efforts to quell local dissent are failing
and have failed historically for the same basic reason: The
states/power elites involved have consistently sought to impose a
solution the dissidents do not want, and the matter is important
enough for disaffected people to be willing to die or go to jail for
it. It is no coincidence that the more than fifty countries that have
experienced significant internal conflicts in the past decade
generally have one or more dissident/insurgent/terrorist groups.

Who Then Is The Enemy?

Accumulating flaws in the human condition are the principal causes of
terrorism. This is the enemy we must look in the face. Such hate as
exists among terrorists is a symptom of those flaws. William Pfaff,
writing for the International Herald Tribune, states that "the usual
motives for terrorist outrages" are "nationalism, irredentism and
religion". Those indeed are important motivators, but they are the
dominant motives in only some cases. Actually about half of the
terrorist groups on the US State Department list seek some form of
regime change, but only a few are revolutionaries. Most who seek
regime change are trying to get their government to listen to them or
to get a regime that will listen to them. But they are doing this
because they are left out, not because they fit the William Pfaff
categories. Perhaps the real problem here is that few, if any, of the
terrorist groups are driven by single-minded urges. It is worth
reminding ourselves that terrorists are real people with real problems
in real contexts. They are not the cardboard cutouts of villains that
the al Qaida, Osama bin Laden images often convey.

Is The War Missing The Point?

In this context, the superpower focus on al Qaida has taken the eye
off the ball. World terrorism is a great deal more complicated than
the schemes of a disaffected, rich, ambitious outcast Saudi named
Osama bin Laden. The tragedy of it all, however, is that a narrow
focus on al Qaida has blinded American leadership and distracted world
leadership from the vital mission of attacking the causes of
terrorism. Whatever else we do, our leadership must get to work on
dealing with the flaws in the human condition. If we cannot fix those,
forget about making terrorism go away.

For the world as a whole, the least cost choice is to step back and
reorganize, the sooner the better. But a vital requirement of that
reorganization must be a built in recognition that all people are
equal, and all people have rights. To get there, present day statehood
and power structures must be modified. With weapons and explosives so
generally available, there is no alternative but to recognize the
goals of dissidents or to persuade them to accept workable
alternatives. Virtually no global energy is being devoted to this
task. Reducing the number of terrorists or the number of attacks is
impossible without accomplishing this task.

What Are The Answers?

The Bush team touts the War on Terrorism as a silver bullet. There is
no such tool. Rather the actions likely to be effective embrace a
broad range of American policy and practice. Here is a short list of
ten:

1. Really export American democracy. American democracy is government
by the will of the governed, and everyone in American society is
entitled to have a say in it. What we are doing in Iraq right now is a
fraud. Without asking the Iraqi people, we are building military
bases"fourteen of them"designed to create a permanent US presence in
Iraq. To rig a compliant government for making the basing system
acceptable, we have chosen people who are well known to the leading
American companies involved, or to the CIA, to head up the transition
process, meaning to guide it toward our desired outcome. We are doing
our best to eradicate the serious objectors. That is cynical
pragmatism, not democracy, and it centers on US interests as defined
by the neo-cons, rather than on the interests, self-defined, of the
Iraqi people. Enough Iraqis know this so that chaos reigns. Give them
back their country, and let them figure out how to run it.

2. Promote improvements in justice systems and law enforcement as the
main strategies for dealing with accused terrorists. Under United
States law, all acts of terrorism are crimes. Terrorist attacks are
single acts more often than not, and the appropriate response to them
lies in the realm of crime and punishment. Assure that in all cases
the accused are treated fairly. There is no practical reason why the
detection, detention, and punishment of a terrorist group require more
radical treatment than applied to an international criminal mob.

3. Stop torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and other
holding sites. On this matter, the United States now enjoys a
reputation alongside the most reprehensible 20th century dictators. It
may be that such inhumane practices have produced some information
that was valuable in apprehending individual suspects, possibly even
key al Qaida leaders. However, the costs of torturing prisoners,
denying them due process, sending them to places where torture is a
commonplace of local practice, hazing them, have been morally and
politically catastrophic for the United States. By such means the
United States has succeeded in building an enduring al Qaida
organization, while at the same time destroying America's reputation
as the wellspring of democracy and the defender of human liberties.

4. Enter into alliances with other governments that promote the first
three principles. Encourage those governments to seek accommodation
with their out groups and find ways to bring them into the mainstreams
of national society. Recognize that there are legitimate complaints
against many governments, and that merely taking actions to suppress
the complainants will not make such problems go away.

5. Consider seriously the issue of state restructuring under UN
auspices. In some instances that may be the only answer that reduces
or avoids long term conflict. There are several cases as clear as East
Timor. The key is to encourage affected governments and groups to
enter a serious dialogue aimed toward solutions. When all peoples are
equal, the world is too crowded to have violent arguments about who
belongs to whom. Present territorial boundaries should be no more cast
in stone than they were when the boundaries of many affected present
states were drawn, often arbitrarily, after World War II.

6. Support national initiatives to deal with out-group problems by
providing assistance, including real, multi-national financial and
technical resource inputs to ease the transition from one
organizational pattern to another.

7. Apply the definitions of terrorism that we use on others to
ourselves and to our allies and friends. Somehow we must rid ourselves
and the rest of the world of the miasma created by failure to adopt a
worldwide single definition of terrorism. We were capable of codifying
a democratic set of principles, including a complete set of criminal
laws. Therefore, what keeps us from agreeing on a definition of
terrorism other than the destructive wish to maintain an advantage
over other people?

8. Eliminate the double standard treatment as between states that have
nuclear weapons and states that do not. Live by the same rules we try
to impose on others respecting ownership and use of or access to
nuclear technologies. Today, over 3 billion people live in nuclear
weapon states (the US, Russia, Britain, France, Israel, India,
Pakistan, and China). To paraphrase Abe Lincoln, the world cannot
prosper with half of its people protected by nuclear weapons and half
of its people who perceive themselves vulnerable and threatened by
them. The end state appears to be all or nothing. The correct answer
most likely is elimination of all weapons.

9. Look squarely at our own sins. They include not only our
heavy-handed and unprovoked invasion of Iraq, and our brutal handling
of prisoners, but also our unequivocal support of the Israelis in
their expulsion of the Palestinian people from their homes and
businesses. They include also our alliances with several governments
that encourage the suppression of local dissidents. If we do not
recognize these tragic flaws in our own posture and correct them,
there is no chance that global terrorism can ever be reduced or
eliminated.

10. Help restore the authority of the United Nations and our
commitments to the UN system. Over a period of several years, we have
undermined the integrity and authority of the United Nations by
refusing fully to fund its operations and going our own way when the
rest of the world disagreed with our goals or approaches. We may be
the world's most powerful military state, but we are still less than
5% of its people. The exertion of that power, especially in pursuit of
selfish and even illegal goals, works only to increase the number and
diversity of our enemies. That places our current awkward situation
somewhere between a self-fulfilling prophecy and a self-inflicted
wound. We can recover from this situation only by a sustained
demonstration of responsible world leadership.

Our Choices Are Limited But Real

There is no single or magical cure for terrorism. Promoters of the War
on Terrorism are simply wrong in their choice of remedies. If we
continue as we are, the world will descend slowly into chaos, because
no one actually will be working its problems. The truth about
terrorism is that it feeds on our worst survival instincts. In the
eventual outcome, the weak will be destroyed by the strong, and the
strong will destroy each other. It is vital that we recognize
terrorism and the terrorist as symptoms and that we look to the
causes. Treating only the symptoms, especially with the harsh remedies
we now apply, will only make matters worse.

Our people have two choices at this point: (1) We can go along with
the rhetorical war on terrorism that is taking our country into
increasing danger, while we learn to live with the constant fear that
approach involves. (2) We can demand that our leaders get serious
about attacking the deep-seated anger, frustration, and will to
violence that is fed by the horrors at the bottom of the human
condition, as well as distortions in the organization of states. We
cannot win by waiting to be attacked in order to find out who is mad
at us. We cannot win by conducting an international campaign, unless
that campaign is truly multinational and it is directed principally at
mitigating the causes of terrorism. We cannot win if our own campaign
is widely seen to be violating human rights or international law. We
cannot win without widespread agreement on what is appropriate for
dealing with human grievances.

We can win in the long run only by reducing the underlying causes of
terrorism or making them go away. That is the truth about terrorism,
and our country must have top political leadership that will deal with
it.

********** The writer is a former Senior Foreign Service Officer of
the US Department of State and former Chairman of the Department of
International Studies of the National War College. He will welcome
comment at [email protected]
 
Thanks for posting.
I saved it.

Reg's.
 
"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or
property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian
population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or
social objectives."

"Terrorism is the use or threatened use of force designed to bring
about political change."


Under either of those definitions, we can count as terrorists those people who host websites where they post personal information about doctors who perform abortions, such as their home address and telephone number, the location where their spouse is employed, and the name and address of their children's schools, so that those who would hurt them can find them easily. In most cases, when such violence is perpetrated against these doctors or their families, that doctor's name is crossed through with a black line on the website within hours. If this isn't terrorism, I'm at a loss to understand why not.
 
In short, terrorism is different things to different people. To some its a tool, to others its a way of life, and yet for others its close to being a religion in and of itself.

And to those that do not use terrorism or abide by it, in however great or small quantities that may be, it is nothing more than a means to which the ends are not justified. A terrorist will always find justification, the terrorized will always rebuke it.


EDIT: Ah, this is my 666th post, number of the Beast, the imperfect, imcomplete number. And with Halloween so close by, it seems so fitting. And lets not forget that I'm Count Vladislav Dracula, the son of the Beast :p
 
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couldnt help but put my 2cents in. Terrorism, while broad in scope, and a seeming catch-all in today's left-leaning, morally ambiguous world is a viable threat to anyone's security.

I will not pontificate on the seeming consistency between the "insurgents" in Iraq and our early uprisings here against King George. To any mildly intelligent person, the differences are vast.

The obvious "I hate Israel and America" rhetoric is unsurprising. I just have some points for readers of that slop to ponder:

Assuming (very huge, unrealistic assumption) that the Palestinians were living by themselves peacefully until that fateful day in May 1948 (Israel's Day of recognition as a nation), where did all them Killer-Jews come from? What hole were they hiding in, (armed and trained to kill Pallies)that they swept down upon the poor,peaceful unsuspecting Palestinians?Who didnt see this coming and why?

If that can be answered adequately, we might have an argument for genocide against the Isarelis (in terms of their approach to "Palestine"). After all, who wouldn't hate these Mongolian tactics (sweeping in from the steppes and demanding their booty) and their oppressive, Westernized form of Democracy?

The point is...read a little history (dating to the 19th century). Find out what a wasteland "Palestine" was. Find out about the "Zionist" movement to put Jews back into their HISTORICAL native land. With all the tree-hugging people bitching about Native Americans and their historical land was taken here, youd think that they would be championing the Jews' cause to return.But nope, theyre Jews, so F em.
It wasnt until the Jews started to resettle the wasteland that WAS "Palestine", along with Arab immigrants from Egypt and Jordan, that the "Palestine" we know came to be. They transformed the desert wastelands into lush valleys and built over the course of a century a major economic center.(oh, by the way, the several hundred miilion plus Arabs situated around it, couldnt find their way out of a paper bag much less turn their country around-unless theyre sitting on trillions of barrels of oil, that is)
It wasnt until Great Britain handed over the Palestinian area, and the UN (did you read that? UN!) approved the creation of the Jewish state in 1948.Interestingly enough, these same scum-bag neighbors attacked the next day. Hmmm..no army, navy or air force.......yet the Israelis still beat them like red-headed step-children. (reminiscent of a Revolution I once heard of in the 1770's).
Ever since then, this people (Jews) have been attacked at every turn.It wasnt until 1967, when Jordan TOLD the "Palestinians" living in Israel to leave so they didnt gethurt when Jordan was going to "destroy" the Jews, that any people left. They left, and Israel hammered Jordan.In the aftermath, Israel took the city of Jerusalem (for the first time Jews were in it as a people since AD 70). This created the West Bank.It is in Eastern Israel, but its the West bank of the-you guessed it- JORDAN river!!!!After that, Jordan wouldnt allow the "Palestinians" who had left to come in and Isarel wouldnt let the turncoats come back either. Thus begins Refugee camps and West Bank ghettos.
Gee its amazing that with all this Allah rhetoric the Arabs dont help each other out more. Oh wait they do..Every time a child or person blows themselves up the family gets money and recognition. Heres a thought u Muslim fanatics...why not give out all ur money from drugs and arm brokering to them anyway? Itd be alot easier to show Allah u care. You know, maybe set up a boys and girls club or something, get them OUT of the ghetto and not by way of a pine box either.Hmmmm.
Anyhoo, I digress. It just pains me to hear about OCCUPATION, when in fact the Jews resettled that land when NO ONE or NOTHING of import was even there until after they had done all the work. Kinda reminds me of my neighbors here in Texas who bitch about their HISPANIC roots and how great a culture it is in Mexico (im Hispanic btw). What they dont realize is that if Texas remained under Mexican control, we'd be just as bad as the rest of Mexico is now, or even worse. They seem to forget that where are they now is light-years beyond our neighbor to the south.

just some points to ponder. Im sure some Antisemite will attack these claims and make some Utilitarian phiolosophical argument...but oh well.
 
I would love to hear this person's idead on how to stop terrorism All people like him can say is "there must be a better way to stop terrorism" Well I for one would like to hear his ideas

Stop blind support for Isreal? If we did that,then the arab nations would do their best to destroy Isreal Maybe Hollywood should do their part by stopping the import of so called "entertainment" to the Arab nations

With the beliefs they have in the Arab world do you think they like the crap coming out of Hollywood? maybe that is one reason they hate us so much

Another thing Without outside influence,how much oil would still be buried under the Middle east? They have all that wealth over there but refuse to join modern times Most of their punishment they do to criminals would be considered cruel and unusual punishment here in America


With the way those arab nations treat women I am suprised N.O.W. isn't supporting a war against the Arab nations
 
NylonHound said:
"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or
property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian
population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or
social objectives."

"Terrorism is the use or threatened use of force designed to bring
about political change."


Under either of those definitions, we can count as terrorists those people who host websites where they post personal information about doctors who perform abortions, such as their home address and telephone number, the location where their spouse is employed, and the name and address of their children's schools, so that those who would hurt them can find them easily. In most cases, when such violence is perpetrated against these doctors or their families, that doctor's name is crossed through with a black line on the website within hours. If this isn't terrorism, I'm at a loss to understand why not.

Personally I think anybody who would do something like that is a terrorist
 
general zod said:
I would love to hear this person's idead on how to stop terrorism All people like him can say is "there must be a better way to stop terrorism" Well I for one would like to hear his ideas
The point in that short essay is "you can't stop terrorism".
On the other hand, you can undermine it by resolving its issues.

Terrorism isn't a large interconnected organization [see Jason Burke's Al-Quaeda] - there are a lot of smaller groups, sometimes working together against a common target.

You treat them as individuals [Burke's and Arnold's point] and you understand why they do what they do.
And "because they hate our democracy" probably is not the right answer.


Stop blind support for Isreal? If we did that,then the arab nations would do their best to destroy Isreal
It is doubtful "arabs" will destroy Israel. Arabs are themselves a galaxy of ethnic and religious groups battling for supremacy or survival, and it is unlikely Isreal will be their first target, even if a group rose over the others.

T.E. Arnold's point is: funding military industry against Palestine makes those divided groups coalesce, weld together against a new-found common foe.

This doesn't mean abandoning Israel, but recognizing each party's rightful - or reasonable - claims.
We can't forget Rabin wasn't killed by a Palestinian. We must quench violence on "our" side before we can ask "our foe" to do the same.

[I have no ally or foe, it was just relative perspective]


Another thing Without outside influence,how much oil would still be buried under the Middle east? They have all that wealth over there but refuse to join modern times Most of their punishment they do to criminals would be considered cruel and unusual punishment here in America
The Oil problem is actually a non-problem: if we really feared losing our main source of energy, we would have long swapped it for something else.
We have gas, solar, wind energy. Besides there are still untapped oil-wells in Europe. So America wouldn't be left without oil.

Being European, I might say people who control oil in America prefer to take it from middle-eastern countries, instead of paying it dearly from Europe.
But *that* was just my biased opinion. ;)

Italian oil tycoon Moratti recently said during an interview he would simply change to another form of energy should oil be depleted.
I can't see why American tycoons can't do the same.


About punishment, I don't see a connection: by European's standards American punishments are cruel and unusual too [death-sentence, and variations thereof], so they/you shouldn't have oil, by your own reasoning. ;)


With the way those arab nations treat women I am suprised N.O.W. isn't supporting a war against the Arab nations
Because military war kills even those women we'd like to protect.
Bombs don't discriminate.

Now, I am surprised why Delta Force [does it really exist, by the way?] hadn't killed Saddam, Bin Laden or Sheik Omar before, with a clean bullet through their head.
Aren't they expert at covert actions? Was really necessary to invade a whole country? The only non-muslim country among "arab" nations, besides?

Iraq was a dictatorship, but it was a lay country: religion had no place in its politics.
Now religious parties will want a slice of the pie: by your own reasoning, we have no warranty they'll choose western democracy.
What if Iraq becomes an "musilm country" in the traditional sense?

Will those military bases be good a warranty enough?


Reg's.
 
Kalamos said:
Now, I am surprised why Delta Force [does it really exist, by the way?] hadn't killed Saddam, Bin Laden or Sheik Omar before, with a clean bullet through their head. Aren't they expert at covert actions? Was really necessary to invade a whole country? The only non-muslim country among "arab" nations, besides?
Special forces were not needed. The 11/9 attacks could have been avoided but don't know why it wasn't the case. Besides Bush is linked to Bin Laden want it or not it's a fact.
He was in the US that day, even more strange left country by plane with many members of his family the day after.
 
alf said:
Special forces were not needed. The 11/9 attacks could have been avoided but don't know why it wasn't the case. Besides Bush is linked to Bin Laden want it or not it's a fact.
He was in the US that day, even more strange left country by plane with many members of his family the day after.


That is the point of most detractors of the "organization theory".
If terrorism had really organized itself into a centralized network under the name of Al Kaeda [see Arnold, Burk], it would have been easier to intercept or foil their plans.

Problem is, this "Al Kaeda Network" could be as real as the "Spectra Network" from spy movies.

Nobody can stop it because it doesn't exist. Not *how* we believe it to exist: it has no mastermind or kingpin. You can't behead it since it has no single head, or it has many indipendents "headlets".

That's why Osama Bin Laden is probably just a figure-head: a handy public enemy that diverts the attention from the real facts.

I don't know what those facts are. But if muslim country call "us" terrorists, maybe we should wonder why.


Please note, gals and guys: I included myself as a European in the "hated" bunch. We accuse muslim countries [generically referred to as "arabs"] of hating us without discrimination.

But I ask: how can they tell us apart, if *we* don't care and tell *them* apart by culture, religion, geography and history?


Reg's.
 
alf said:
Special forces were not needed. The 11/9 attacks could have been avoided but don't know why it wasn't the case. Besides Bush is linked to Bin Laden want it or not it's a fact.
He was in the US that day, even more strange left country by plane with many members of his family the day after.

Ahhh...I see you bought Moore's FarenHYPE!. Bin Lauden was not in the US, although some of his family was. Saying Bush is linked to Bin Laden is, as we say on the farm, bull puckey...
 
-> Alf and Kyhawkeye.

Americans can't and won't accept the existance of links between the American president mr Bush and [mr?] Bin Laden's family.

It is not a matter of politics - whichever party they side with they can't probably accept it.
It isn't of business either - and yet economy creates unlikely partnerships.

As a European, and Italian citizen, I am not above suspecting of any and everybody.
But most American people share a different outlook and background.

To them, suspecting, accepting a link - if ever one was - would be questioning the sanctity of the presidential role itself.
As a president mr Bush is more than just a ruler. He is a symbol of a whole country, so his citizens can't question him without questioning themselves.

They'd have to separate the man from his charge, from his role, before questioning him openly.
 
Man is an insipid plague on this planet, for which there is no cure. We are motivated by greed, and an unyielding desire to force ideology upon one another. We are willing to destroy the very essence of ourselves in an unending attempt at domination over the planet and everything on it. Man, who creates God, then defies the very word of Him, and then declares, through his own actions to be mightier and more worthy of worship than God itself, will be the ending of life as we know it.

Terrorism is the natural progression for this disease called Man, and it will devour the putrified remains in the wake of its own existence until finally, there is nothing left worth killing or dying for. Civilization will begin anew, as it has for a million years.
 
ShadowTklr said:
Terrorism is the natural progression for this disease called Man, and it will devour the putrified remains in the wake of its own existence until finally, there is nothing left worth killing or dying for. Civilization will begin anew, as it has for a million years.
Yeah, your optimism is refreshing. ;)
 
the way to end terrorism is to end imperialism. you cant expect to try and control the world and have people love you for it. people are going to react and they will react violently and non violently. they will use terrorism and they will use legit means of struggle.

but as long as the us is economically and militarily dominated the planet the struggle will continue against it. just as israel continues to colonize the west bank and gaza the palestinians will continue to resist, both violently and non violently, using terrorism and legit means of struggle.

you cant have it both ways, and we must not also forget that imperialism and occupation is the worst form of terrorism in itself.
 
For punk:

The largest ethnicity of terororists in this day and age is unfortunately those of Arabic descent and Near-Asian descent, most of which seem to follow the Islamic faith. I am not bashing the faith, but rather rusing conservative numbers to prove a point.

The Islamic faith is estimated at over 1 billion worshippers worldwide. Even if 90% are nice, super sweet women-respecting, democracy loving people, you still have 100 million who are considered fantaical and militant. Quite an impressive foe in terms of numbers.

As far as imperialism goes, yes I undertsand Britain and the Frogs both screwed things with their Empirical designs. Just look at India b/c of the Brits and Vietnam(Indochina) b/c of France. However, as this seems to be my new role, a history lesson is in order.

Mohammed, in the 7th century AD used imperialism to spread his new formed faith (islam), by means of might and aggression. I now will quote Dr. Ken Gentry in an excerpt from his article in The Chalcedon Report:

"In Sura 9:5 we read: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.” At verse 29 the devout Muslim is directed to “fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

And these teachings of Muhammad himself arose from his own lifestyle. His early caravan raids to finance his new religion, and later wars against the inhabitants of Medina and other cities to promote it, give meaning to his religion of “Islam,” which means “submission.”

Unlike Christianity, “In Islam, the struggle of good and evil acquired, from the start, political and even military dimensions. Muhammad, it will be recalled, was not only a prophet and a teacher, like the founders of other religions; he was also a ruler and a soldier. Hence his struggle involved a state and its armed forces.”1 Thus, “Muhammad triumphed during his lifetime, and died a sovereign and a conqueror.”2 We must understand that “from the lifetime of its Founder, and therefore in its sacred scriptures, Islam is associated in the minds and memories of Muslims with the exercise of political and military power.”3


Just proving a point that terrorists, especially those of Muslim faith, are NOT new and are spreading their own Imperialism, and only carp on America, b/c of the weak-minded subjective-ridden-thought-processes of our "enlightened" European neighbors, which make such rhetoric possible and acceptable.

(2 more cents)
 
kyhawkeye said:
Ahhh...I see you bought Moore's FarenHYPE
No need to wait for Moore movie to get the truth.
By the way i have it but not seen yet ;)
 
skysharker said:
Mohammed, in the 7th century AD used imperialism to spread his new formed faith (islam), by means of might and aggression. I now will quote Dr. Ken Gentry in an excerpt from his article in The Chalcedon Report:

[...]
"In Sura 9:5 we read: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.” At verse 29 the devout Muslim is directed to “fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

[...]

Just proving a point that terrorists, especially those of Muslim faith, are NOT new and are spreading their own Imperialism, and only carp on America, b/c of the weak-minded subjective-ridden-thought-processes of our "enlightened" European neighbors, which make such rhetoric possible and acceptable.

I feel vaguely involved by the "enlightened" remark... ;)

I tried to be fair in my own comments: I don't usually "carp" on Americans, nor I've ever said that Islam was the perfect religion or state.

I'd also like to point out that in 600 d.C. United States of America wheren't even there. Holy Roman Empire wasn't there!
While Dr Gentry's datas might be accurate - they probably are about islam imperialism - by the same vein, they might be applied to italian imperialism too.

Laugh as hard as you want, but Roman empire was italian based. And yet puny italians conquered a fair share of the - back then - known world.
Nobody fears italian imperialism, 1600 years later.

I wonder why somebody fears muslim imperialism 1400 years later.


About violent suras, I won't bother to flip through my bible, but we know both the Old and New Testament contain similar anectodes and laws.
Let's face it: these religions are centuries old. Flipping through religious text just to show how mean fanatics really are is a weak argument.

Besides, I googled that 9th sura you quoted.
-> http://i-cias.com/e.o/texts/koran/koran009.htm
-> http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm

I'm no Koran expert, but they look slightly different to me.

Especially this:
"[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make.
If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."

They don't look *that* violent, considering how old the text is.
"If they refuse to make peace" - looks like simple ancient-world war politics to me. If you are at war with somebody, killing its people is cruel, but historically it was no big deal.
Come on, people still kill people even today, centuries later... and at least Muslims contemplated being merciful.

As I said, you can wave under my nose all the musty religious texts of this world and the next. You can turn them inside out, and you'll be bound to find something odd, cruel or both.

Fact is: my present, actual neighbours are *not* the United State. MY neighbours are of islamic faith: Europe borders with Turkey, the gateway to muslim countries.

If your country's army really has to operate "near" my own country, it should work to *prevent* further terror attacks.
Spain suffered greatly on 3/11 - Madrid. Who's next, now?

Does seeing people die make me "enlightened" enough?
Or do I have to die myself before I can comment on american foreign politics?

Does this ring a bell, or am I only one of those misguided Europeans, who don't know what's really good for them?


Reg's.
 
Last edited:
Kalamos, some friendly information. He said "carp" not crap. Carp means to find fault with or to habitually complain about.
 
gibby59 said:
Kalamos, some friendly information. He said "carp" not crap. Carp means to find fault with or to habitually complain about.

Duly edited. Thanks for pointing that out. :D
 
im not saying that islam isnt imperialistic, but that the greatest imperialism is and always has been capitalist. which has produced a far greater number of terrorists. its the fact that we are not democracy loving people is why the terrorism you are so concerned with exists. radical islam didnt come from a vacuum it was nurtured by capitalist imperialism and when the capitalists couldnt use them anymore they were dumped like a ton of bricks, now they are feeding of other imperialism mainly israeli and the us. so the point is still to end imperialism.
 
Ok, I hate to say this again...but PLEASE remember your history. Long before capitalism was even an idea, much less a country's way of life, Islam was waging war on people who did not ally with their faith. Please READ my post. Mohammed lived in the 7th century AD. There werent any capitalist nations taking over. The point of the post was to prove that HISTORICALLY Islamic peoples have ALWAYS attacked whom they didnt care for, using the religious thing as their cover. But now, today's weak minds equate that with an attack on capitalism. Where were u in the cold war? I remember Communism being the baddie. Capitalism (to an extent) spelled freedom for many people. Remember there used to be an East and West Germany until 1989.
By the way, why the Islamic attacks (read:Chechen) on Russia? They are hardly a capitalistic power. WHat does America have to do with the Russian bombings and shootings of 300+ people at a SCHOOL?!?!

Kalamos:

Once again, I am aware of Roman might and civilzation back in the day. I also know Rome is in Italy.
Point: The Catholic Church DID exist in the 4th century AD.
Point: Dr. Gentry is not using some misquoted or outdated musty edition of the Koran.There isnt a New Living Tranlsation or NIV version of the Koran, or "The Dummie's Guide to Koran" (at least not a dummie's guide that any Imam worth his detonator would promote).


As a side point to "translational" issues and the "I wonder why somebody fears muslim imperialism 1400 years later" issue, I again point to Dr. Gentry,
who says,

"Secularists complain against such negative comparisons between Christianity and Islam. They invariably point to the Christian Crusades as evidence of our own failure. However, internationally renowned Islam authority Bernard Lewis responds: “The Crusade is a late development in Christian history and, in a sense, marks a radical departure from basic Christian values as expressed in the Gospels .… In the long struggle between Islam and Christendom, the Crusade was late, limited, and of relatively brief duration. Jihad is present from the beginning of Islamic history — in scripture, in the life of the Prophet, and in the actions of his companions and immediate successors. It has continued throughout Islamic history and retains its appeal to the present day.”8

Riddell and Cotterell agree, and contrast Islamic jihad with the Christian Crusades: “First, the Christian call for holy war was made by a human pope … and as such was subject to challenge by later theologians. The Muslim call to jihad, however, is cemented within the Qur’an for all time. Second, the doctrine of holy war has now largely fallen into disuse in Christian circles, whereas jihad as a military concept is still widely practiced by some Muslim groups.”9

We could also point out that the Crusades were defensive maneuvers against cruel, unprovoked Muslim conquests of Christian lands and that they were eventually not only forsaken but apologized for by Christianity. Such is not the case with Islamic jihad."

Even if those surahs were "musty", the almost 1 billion Muslims around the world seem to have no problem living with them.

As for Turkey, try being Grecian. They would LOVE to have you convince them that Turkey is a great neighboring country.

The muslims being merciful part. READ it again. They would be merciful only if you turned to their faith. Hmm..sounds like what I have been saying all along. A faith driven to make war. There has NEVER been a period of time where Muslim countries as a whole wanted to be buddies with Non-muslim nations.
 
skysharker said:
Point: The Catholic Church DID exist in the 4th century AD.
Sure, but it had just become a free religion [312-313, Constantine] and only in the late '80s [388-9] it had been made Empire's official religion [by Theodosius].

It had none of the influence it would later gain, it was barely recognizable as the modern religion most know.
It wasn't even really catholic yet: Orthodox schism was yet to come, and patriarchs had yet to lay the foundations of christian church - let alone catholic church.

They were still looking for a niche inside the yet pagan Roman Empire - see Zecchini, "Roman Political Thought".
Their enemies wheren't the Arabs or the Turks, but arians and other heretics, and the very same emperors they tried to convert.

By VIII century Holy Roman Empire wasn't there yet; Charlemagne wasn't emperor yet: catholic church had just started leaving the Lombard sphere of influence, and was seeking assistance from the future king of the Franks.

So, you say Arabs were imperialistic: I just see a vacuum of power - a lack of organized resistance - and a strong political rule that united them in a winning force.

I wouldn't say that religion was the only factor that helped them in creating an empire: it probably was instrumental in keeping people together [religion is often a great cohesive element - for everybody], but they also where better organized and equipped than the people they conquered.

Religion alone can't win wars - however "fanatical" the soldiers may be.


Point: Dr. Gentry is not using some misquoted or outdated musty edition of the Koran.
Dr Gentry is quoting Koran as he sees fit, passim, leaving out the context.

If I quoted the Bible [and Patristic] at random I could show you that slavery is acceptable [Paulus] or that women should be excluded from religion and politics: "taceant mulieres in ecclesia" [again Paulus].


However, internationally renowned Islam authority Bernard Lewis responds: “The Crusade is a late development in Christian history and, in a sense, marks a radical departure from basic Christian values as expressed in the Gospels .…
I could add the whole middle-ages were a departure from basic values as expressed in the Gospels. It is just history and evolution.

My point is: we accept Christianity's faults excusing them as "departure from basic values". But to us Islam's faults are unforgivable: we blame the Koran, instead of blaming misguided men.


Jihad is present from the beginning of Islamic history — in scripture, in the life of the Prophet, and in the actions of his companions and immediate successors. It has continued throughout Islamic history and retains its appeal to the present day.”8
But Jihad wasn't initially meant to be a crusade, the holy war: it meant "effort for God", and it was later warped into a military tool.

Only the *really* fanatical consider Jihad as a holy war; and even in that sense, Jihad is retaliatory, not a conversion tool.

[See Ambrosioni and Zerbi on this matter]


We could also point out that the Crusades were defensive maneuvers against cruel, unprovoked Muslim conquests of Christian lands and that they were eventually not only forsaken but apologized for by Christianity. Such is not the case with Islamic jihad."
While it started to force the blockade of ports, Crusades quickly escalated in a full war of aggression.

The involved parties were so keen on conquering they even invaded a former ally as Constantinople [1204 - Doge Enrico Dandolo].

We later painted them with a veneer of romanticism to cover up what they really where: a mass scale blunder. Apologies were simply ridiculous: crusades were barely a dent in Ottoman Empire [see Cardini].


As for Turkey, try being Grecian. They would LOVE to have you convince them that Turkey is a great neighboring country.
I never said I love having a muslim country close by. Besides Greece *is* part of Europe, they are just closer to the problem.

Try being European, and having America say "Islam is evil, all Muslims could be fanatical terrorists".

Muslim countries are closer than America is: calling them "imperialistic" from the other side of Ocean is a bit too easy.


The muslims being merciful part. READ it again. They would be merciful only if you turned to their faith.
Sure, because bombing cities so they turn to your/our democracy is merciful...


A faith driven to make war.
A different, alien faith? Maybe.
A faith "driven" to make war is improper. Faith [any faith] has always been used to drive wars. Islam is no different from most other religions.

Blame misguided men, not the religion itself. Religion can be bent, warped, misquoted. Men wield arms. Books do not.

Besides, after XVI century, Ottoman empire started receding. Their conquering season was over, and colonialism stirred what was better left alone.


There has NEVER been a period of time where Muslim countries as a whole wanted to be buddies with Non-muslim nations.
I can live with it: I'm happy to leave them alone, praying and living however they see fit.

No Muslim ever tried converting me.

I am more wary of people who stir even more trouble, from the safety of their own faraway houses.


Reg's.
 
Last edited:
"One mans hero is another mans terrorist."-sadly I can't remember who wrote that.
 
What is terrorism? In my book it's the same thing as "sin" (aka the act of making a choice whose consequences cause pain and suffering to a person or persons that does not deserve it).
 
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