Why does everyone put down the college degree these days?

[rivers121]

As a person who went back to college after time off and plan to graduate in the fall at age 29, I'm horrified to read how soooooo many articles are proclaiming a college degree as a waste of money. I read how experience in a job means more than a degree, and how just getting into a trade is better than wasting money on an education and winding up working in a warehouse or factory when you can't find a job.

I understand that there are many people who have been lucky enough to make it without a degree, but I feel like these articles are also down-playing the other 90% of people who never finished college and wound up in unskilled labor jobs theor entire lives and struggling just to get by. Besides, if everyone just decided to get into trades then there would be an oversaturation of people in the job market for trades and employers would have to set restrictions on applicants in order to sort through people who are best qualified (aka, they would say you need a degree of some sorts and 5+ years of experience).

I just refuse to believe a college degree is worthless. How do you have a shot at a job that makes it a minimum requirement to have one if you don't bother to get one? I think those articles are complete horseshit and were written by people who didn't get out of college and make 100K a year immediately, so they got hurt feelings and said their degree was meaningless. I think too many people think that a degree means you automatically get a 6-figure job right out of the gate, and if they don't make a lot of money or find a job two weeks after graduating, they bitch and say they got screwed over.

I've been out there in the working world without a degree and I couldn't find shit for work. Wound up working in grocery stores for barely above minimum wage, and then warehouses where I busted my ass doing hard physical labor and being treated like dogshit. I have to imagine that I will do better than that once I finish school.

 

[Mash]

It's not so much that it's worthless, but I know people with Bachelor's degrees who are getting paid minimum wage.

 

[FeatherDaemon1]

To say that they are worthless is not correct. It should be said that they are no guarantee to any job especially in this slow economy. Companies do want people with degrees, however they do want that mixed with some manner experience. An internship is usually a good avenue to supply that experience.

I will say though that the impact of a degree is not what it used to be. There is a significant portion of the population now who hold a degree of some type. In a way they are now what a high school diploma used to be, just a bit more specialized. They will show a perspective employer your level of education.

It also really depends on the job that you want. The weight of a degree vs. the weight of experience depends on what career you want.

Bottom line it is usually better to have one than not to have one.

 

[desk]

Once you get one they can't take it away from you. Over 40% of Americans have an associate's degree or better. In the 50's and 60's unless you were a professional you didn't go to college. Now it seems everybody goes. The axiom America was built by high school dropouts is becoming passe.

 

[idiot756]

What I have a problem with is the idea that people who go to college are smarter than people who don't. There is quite a bit of difference between academia and intelligence. If it turned out that a drunken frat boy was smarter than I am, I think I'd just give up on life.

It's more than that, though. For one thing, paying thousands and thousands of dollars just to go to school after already having been to school for the entirety of your childhood just sounds ludicrous to me. Second, where I live, there aren't a lot of jobs anyway. The only ones that I can think of which would require a college degree are "teacher", "lawyer", and various medical fields. As long as it takes to earn your high school diploma, it should be worth something.

Also... I'm saving my money to go to a wrestling school.

 

[Mash]

I have no problem with going to college, and I fully intend to, but as it stands, I'm still only going to make 8 bucks an hour no matter what I do.

Aside from the academic part of it, college is also a valuable life experience.

 

[rivers121]

I appreciate all the comments. My point was that I basically spent my 20s as an unskilled labor worker. I was making good money, around 25/hr, doing what I was doing. But the work was physically exhausting and grueling, and I was 26 and limping out of work at 4am with sore knees, a sore back, and eventually screwed up my shoulder and spent 5 months on worker injury time. I am not the least bit knowledgeable in trades so I didn't really see any other option but to go back and finish my Bachelor's degree if I ever wanted a shot at a different kind of work. I would really hate to think that I just spent 2 1/2 years of my life back in college only to go back and spend the rest of my life doing unskilled physical labor jobs again. All of my friends graduated and have good paying career jobs, so there is some hope, at least I am telling myself that...lol.

Also, I do think that because of "diploma mill" colleges like U of Phoenix and Kaplan online university, it is really fudging the numbers of college grads. I don't considers those as real colleges just based on what I've read of them and what I've heard from people who have taken classes at them, however, they hand out shitloads of degrees yearly and it really contributes to increased college grad percentages. I do plan to get a Master's Degree in time though just because, like everyone says, the Bachelor's degree just isn't what it was 25 years ago because so many people attend college these days. I still don't believe that a college grad should be working side-by-side with high school dropouts. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

It's being considered a waste of money because nothing short of a doctorate is guaranteed to get you a job now a days. Bachelors are practically USELESS and Masters are ALMOST just as so! Why get up to $100,000 in loan debt hell (which a minimum wage job CANNOT HELP YOU PAY BACK) if you'll just be flipping burgers at Wendies or making subs at Quiznos for the next 4 years?

 

[rivers121]

It's being considered a waste of money because nothing short of a doctorate is guaranteed to get you a job now a days. Bachelors are practically USELESS and Masters are ALMOST just as so! Why get up to $100,000 in loan debt hell (which a minimum wage job CANNOT HELP YOU PAY BACK) if you'll just be flipping burgers at Wendies or making subs at Quiznos for the next 4 years?

Because sooner or later the people without college degrees won't even be able to get those jobs. If you don't get a degree, you know that chances are you will be working the register at Wal-mart, or flippin burgers at BK for the rest of your life, unless you get extremely lucky. Eventually you will get a job if you have a Bachelor's degree. Every person I've ever known to at least get their Bachelor's have found a career job paying good money within a few years after graduating (usually within a year after graduating). That includes in this recent economic plunge. Honestly, if you have to move to get that job, then just move. Don't go to college and then move back to a small town that only has factory jobs available.

But seriously, if a bunch of college grads are getting stuck in remedial jobs because careers aren't available.......think of how FU***ED you'd be if you didn't even have a degree. "Sorry, but we're only hiring college grads at McDonald's at this time Ma'am." Sooner or later anyone without at least a Bachelor's degree are going to be squeezed out of the economy altogether. For what it's worth, I say get that degree no matter what.

 

[Violetta]

And I say fix the economy and close the education gap.

What's that? Screw that, just get a degree because everyone has that kind of money? Alright then, thank you for your time.

 

[rivers121]

And I say fix the economy and close the education gap.

What's that? Screw that, just get a degree because everyone has that kind of money? Alright then, thank you for your time.

Well if you don't want to pay for the degree then don't gripe when you're working the drive through at Dunkin Donuts at 42 years old.

 

[Rox_My_Sox1]

Well if you don't want to pay for the degree then don't gripe when you're working the drive through at Dunkin Donuts at 42 years old.

Not everyone can afford to pay off $123,000 loans rivers12.

 

[desk]

Mash 16 even though I break balls and many times disagree with you. You would without a doubt kick ass in college. You are one of the more logical and systematic thinkers in here. As long as you put in the study time you will do quite well!... To negative thinkers, get a college degree or some job training, loan, work part time, school part time, whatever, go for your dream. Stop making all kinds of excuses.

 

[Mash]

Mash 16 even though I break balls and many times disagree with you. You would without a doubt kick ass in college. You are one of the more logical and systematic thinkers in here. As long as you put in the study time you will do quite well!... To negative thinkers, get a college degree or some job training, loan, work part time, school part time, whatever, go for your dream. Stop making all kinds of excuses.

It's one of the only things I'm looking forward to, to be honest. The only problem is my chronic laziness. If I pull the same shit in college that I did in High school, I'm going to be monumentally pissed with myself(It's ironic, considering I'm the only one that can change myself.)

At this point, college is a very viable option for me. The one good thing that has come from me living in poverty is that I should be able to apply for all kinds of grants when I get around to going. I'm hoping to do very well in College; I want it to be a period of time where I can be proud of myself.

I only hope that we can keep the country running long enough for me to get a fucking degree.

 

[Violetta]

Well if you don't want to pay for the degree then don't gripe when you're working the drive through at Dunkin Donuts at 42 years old.

Fuck that shit, you elitist ass. Don't complain when it's people like me fixing your car, building your house, or cooking your food where you can't see it.

Keep looking doing your nose at the working class. It just lets us work without you seeing everything we do.

 

[rivers121]

Not everyone can afford to pay off $123,000 loans rivers12.

Ever heard of a state school? I won't owe back more than 40 grand when I graduate in the fall. Who the hell builds up 123 grand in student loans for a bachelor's degree unless you go to a private school and take out loans for an apartment for 5 years?

 

[rivers121]

Fuck that shit, you elitist ass. Don't complain when it's people like me fixing your car, building your house, or cooking your food where you can't see it.

Keep looking doing your nose at the working class. It just lets us work without you seeing everything we do.

I'm an elitist ass???? I worked in a warehouse for 5 years doing hard physical labor before going back to college. I don't have the money either. I'm taking out student loans, that like everyone else that takes out loans, I have to pay back when I'm finished.

Also, I clean trash out of cubicles as a part time job at an office right now while I'm finishing school so maybe don't throw judgment my way until you get the story straight. Truth be told, if you don't finish college and can't get a better job, not my problem!!! People that fix cars have learned a trade, that's far different than unskilled labor. The world is tough. If someone can't finish school that is unfortunate, but I hate when people that don't finish school get "sour grapes" and feel like they deserve high corporate positions like those who got the education and experience.

When I worked in a warehouse all the physical labor workers whined about how they work so hard and deserve office jobs. They complained how the office workers are all lazy. That's called jealously. Again, some people can't finish school because they have kids and ect...., but for those who are single and just don't want to go because they may owe back loans....I don't feel sorry for you if you don't make it in life. You had the chance to get an education and you passed it up. That's why education is called an investment.

Also, don't call me elitist when you know nothing and clearly didn't read my other posts where I mentioned working hard pysical labor in the past. I've paid my dues and sorry if I feel that finishing school I deserve better than a shitty unskilled labor job.

 

[Mash]

The number one fallacy I see popping up again and again in this thread is;
"Success can only be obtained through education via college."

It's a fallacy for a reason. There are a lot of variables that you're ignoring by saying stuff like that.

1: Personal skill. Who's to say the person doesn't have an inherent talent for art? Music? Engineering? People were doing these things loooooooong before Colleges were around.

2: Family status. Who needs an education when your parents/relatives own a very successful business?

3: Tutors. That long-time family friend who owns a car repair shop or is an antiques dealer? He could very well teach you a lot of what you need to know, and it will probably be free. People have had tutors and mentors for ages and ages, and it has worked just fine in the past. Apprenticeships still exist. Yes, it's not a degree, so some employers will turn you down on the spot...but actions speak louder than little pieces of paper; show them what you can do.

 

[rivers121]

The number one fallacy I see popping up again and again in this thread is;
"Success can only be obtained through education via college."

It's a fallacy for a reason. There are a lot of variables that you're ignoring by saying stuff like that.

1: Personal skill. Who's to say the person doesn't have an inherent talent for art? Music? Engineering? People were doing these things loooooooong before Colleges were around.

2: Family status. Who needs an education when your parents/relatives own a very successful business?

3: Tutors. That long-time family friend who owns a car repair shop or is an antiques dealer? He could very well teach you a lot of what you need to know, and it will probably be free. People have had tutors and mentors for ages and ages, and it has worked just fine in the past. Apprenticeships still exist. Yes, it's not a degree, so some employers will turn you down on the spot...but actions speak louder than little pieces of paper; show them what you can do.

For trades you probably don't need to go to college, but not everyone does trades. Even if you do a trade, it never hurts to get some sort of certificate or certification by going to one of those 6-month trade schools in order to make your trade skills more marketable to other employers.

If your family owns a successful business and wants to give it to you, then lucky you. That is extremely rare and probably only constitutes like 1 % of the population.

As for the first point you make, I'm sure there are tons of smart people without degrees. Unfortunately, employers don't give a shit about whether or not you can do a job without a degree, they usually can't hire you unless you have that piece of paper. It's a formality nowadays with most employers. You aren't going to see a guy doing your taxes who never graduated from college.

I don't know how old you are Mash, but I thought the same way you did when I was like 20. I used to think, "I"ll just work really hard and show I'm smart and I'll get that good job anyways." That is probably the biggest misconception or fallacy of all. Employers don't give a shit if you are a good workers. They will not give you a high priority job without an education. It just doesn't happen anymore.

 

[PurpleStyle]

It's being considered a waste of money because nothing short of a doctorate is guaranteed to get you a job now a days. Bachelors are practically USELESS and Masters are ALMOST just as so! Why get up to $100,000 in loan debt hell (which a minimum wage job CANNOT HELP YOU PAY BACK) if you'll just be flipping burgers at Wendies or making subs at Quiznos for the next 4 years?

What are you talking about? Teachers, doctors, nurses, and to a lesser degree, engineers - are always in demand, which requires college training. I wish you'd stop shooting your mouth off about stuff like this.

 

[Mash]

For trades you probably don't need to go to college, but not everyone does trades. Even if you do a trade, it never hurts to get some sort of certificate or certification by going to one of those 6-month trade schools in order to make your trade skills more marketable to other employers.

If your family owns a successful business and wants to give it to you, then lucky you. That is extremely rare and probably only constitutes like 1 % of the population.

As for the first point you make, I'm sure there are tons of smart people without degrees. Unfortunately, employers don't give a shit about whether or not you can do a job without a degree, they usually can't hire you unless you have that piece of paper. It's a formality nowadays with most employers. You aren't going to see a guy doing your taxes who never graduated from college.

I don't know how old you are Mash, but I thought the same way you did when I was like 20. I used to think, "I"ll just work really hard and show I'm smart and I'll get that good job anyways." That is probably the biggest misconception or fallacy of all. Employers don't give a shit if you are a good workers. They will not give you a high priority job without an education. It just doesn't happen anymore.

Lordy lordy. If I had a nickel for every time someone replied to something I said without understanding the context in which I said it, then I wouldn't need college.

I said that higher education is not a prerequisite for success in every scenario. You seemed to have interpreted my words into, "Success can easily be achieved by everyone without college."

Even if only 0.0003% of the world population are successful without college, then that proves my point. Any exception proves my point; however, I did NOT say that I was introducing the exception as the standard. I was saying that given the correct circumstances, an individual can be successful without college, so saying that college is necessary for success is a fallacy.

 

[nolongerhere]

........

 

[rivers121]

College degrees, especially anything more than a 2 year degree (aside from those who actually finish degrees that pay well - doctors, engineers) are a big scam waste of time.

Even people that finish their highly terrific degree that is a mandatory requirement for their field, and get a job in that field, end up with a job that pays 35k a year after 8 years of schooling and 10 years of experience, because many jobs that require advanced degrees just dont F'in pay a lot.

It is a complete bogus scam.

most people in the workforce that have degrees work jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees.

A lot of people who graduate have degrees that are some BS liberal studies or something stupid like fashion merchandising or some crap.

I just graduated about a year ago, I have a very difficult degree to obtain - for a seemingly respected and high paying field (well, its not high paying, but at least they warn you from day 1 that it isnt) and especially with this economy, it doesnt mean $%#$.

I laugh at the people who go to study fashion, and crap like that, thinking they are gonna become some great fashion designer or some BS

Wrong: you dont need to go to school to do that, if you CAN do that, you CAN do it WITHOUT school, on your own, like most people that are successful in that way.

This goes for 95% of careers.

All college degree shows is that you are able to be someones bitch and take orders from someone for 2+ more years.

aside from that, college is a big money making scam. College IS a business in itself, and its business is to get stupid naive kids (who have been programed all through middle and high school that they need a college degree to become successful) to sign up, spend thousands of dollars, and then graduate if their lucky, and get a job working as a waiter if they can even find that nowadays.

Again:

You do not need a college degree to become successful in most careers. Even after you graduate, jobs will still require so many years of work experience for you to even get a humble paying job. Till then you'll be making $10 bucks an hour, payin' off your 50k debt in student loans. Then in 5 years you might be earning $14!!!! salary! and working 60 hours a week! YIPPY!!

You dont need general education classes that touch on pointless and general knowledge. There is no useful working experience given in classes, only basic ideas, unless you go to trade school. (which is usually done will still in high school) So again, after you graduate you'll still have to learn on the job. You just might be earning 2 dollars an hour more to start than you would have 4 years earlier if you just started straight out of high school; notice - your now at a loss of probably 2 dollars and hour, AND have student loan debt.

If you are really good at something you will be able to start something up yourself, and teach yourself how to do it -

What the hell kind of ignorant response is that. I do not know a single person with a college degree that is making only 14/hr. Most people I know that got a degree are starting out around 40K or more a year. It's not my fault if someone gets a useless degree in Art History or fucking English Lit and can't find work. I'm an Econ major. Check the numbers buddy. The starting mean salary for an econ degree holder is around 48K a year. Apart from engineers, business and economics degrees start out at the highest salaries and that is well above 14/hour.


One thing I've learned from my years in blue collar work is that the ONLY people who claim college is a waste of time are those who never went in the first place. It's nothing more than a tactic to convince yourself that your equally deserving of a job that requires a college degree just to get a foot in the door.


P.S. You claim it's a waste of time huh? Go work in a factory and ask around all those miserable people who do the same mindless work day in and day out and see what they tell you. When I used to do jobs like that everyone used to just walk around mumbling "I wish I went to school. I want to go back to school so bad."

 

[Mash]

College degrees, especially anything more than a 2 year degree (aside from those who actually finish degrees that pay well - doctors, engineers) are a big scam waste of time.

Even people that finish their highly terrific degree that is a mandatory requirement for their field, and get a job in that field, end up with a job that pays 35k a year after 8 years of schooling and 10 years of experience, because many jobs that require advanced degrees just dont F'in pay a lot.

It is a complete bogus scam.

most people in the workforce that have degrees work jobs that have nothing to do with their degrees.

A lot of people who graduate have degrees that are some BS liberal studies or something stupid like fashion merchandising or some crap.

I just graduated about a year ago, I have a very difficult degree to obtain - for a seemingly respected and high paying field (well, its not high paying, but at least they warn you from day 1 that it isnt) and especially with this economy, it doesnt mean $%#$.

I laugh at the people who go to study fashion, and crap like that, thinking they are gonna become some great fashion designer or some BS

Wrong: you dont need to go to school to do that, if you CAN do that, you CAN do it WITHOUT school, on your own, like most people that are successful in that way.

This goes for 95% of careers.

All college degree shows is that you are able to be someones bitch and take orders from someone for 2+ more years.

aside from that, college is a big money making scam. College IS a business in itself, and its business is to get stupid naive kids (who have been programed all through middle and high school that they need a college degree to become successful) to sign up, spend thousands of dollars, and then graduate if their lucky, and get a job working as a waiter if they can even find that nowadays.

Again:

You do not need a college degree to become successful in most careers. Even after you graduate, jobs will still require so many years of work experience for you to even get a humble paying job. Till then you'll be making $10 bucks an hour, payin' off your 50k debt in student loans. Then in 5 years you might be earning $14!!!! salary! and working 60 hours a week! YIPPY!!

You dont need general education classes that touch on pointless and general knowledge. There is no useful working experience given in classes, only basic ideas, unless you go to trade school. (which is usually done will still in high school) So again, after you graduate you'll still have to learn on the job. You just might be earning 2 dollars an hour more to start than you would have 4 years earlier if you just started straight out of high school; notice - your now at a loss of probably 2 dollars and hour, AND have student loan debt.

If you are really good at something you will be able to start something up yourself, and teach yourself how to do it -

You can't teach yourself how to properly perform open heart surgery. College generally isn't about learning 'General Knowledge'; that's what the first twelve years of school is for. College is for specializing in a particular field, and making a career out of it.

There are things in this world that you can't teach yourself, or would take too long to be practical. That's what college is for. Education is what keeps our world turning.

Education; the passing of knowledge from one generation to the next, is literally why we're at the top of the food chain.

 

[socktickler86]

Ok here's the situation from someone who knows exactly(ish) what is going on.

Things are changing in the United States, especially within the last decade. Competition within industries is increasing and businesses are putting a much deeper focus on what exactly a college degree means. To top this off, studies are starting to come to light within the past few years showing some troubling statistics and trends in education.

For example, one study which you can google if you so desire, looked at how students success was linked with the universities they went through. The methodology was to look at students who went to big name universities (Harvard, Stanford, Ivy Leagues, MIT, etc) and measured their career success. They they compared these students to students who were accepted to those high caliber schools, but chose to go to lesser schools (good state schools for example). What they found was that, except for slight gains for african americans and latinos, both groups enjoyed almost identical career success. So what does this tell us? It tells us something people have known for a long time: Successful Universities do not make successful people, successful people make successful Universities! It's just like how our graduate departments work, you're never successful because of the graduate department you went to; your graduate departments success depends on how good of students it produces.

We're also finding something which again has long been known in private. Certain degrees are worthless economically. Various programs such as ethnic studies and certain "artsy" degrees (of course, not all) have poor job prospects while others have decent prospects but have poor salaries (ie. social work... which honestly, in my humble opinion, is a horrible horrible field unless you enjoy watching innocent kids being treated in god awful way by "the system"). So we can now add to the issue that people are going into degrees with 0 economic viability.

To add to all of this, with this increased belief in a degree being a guarantee to a career (notice I said belief), universities are trying to bring in more and more people, many of whom are unfit for a college education. People believe this is something they MUST do and don't put effort into seeing whether or not this venture is worth it. Couple this to the mindset of "I just need to pass these stupid classes so I can get a piece of paper" and you have a disaster. MOST of my students seem utterly entrenched in this idea. What they don't realize is that sure you can get a degree and it can get you an entry position at some corporation. However, if you fuck up at that job, it's over. Your degree is nearly worthless. For a bachelors degree, thanks to the watering down of the US educational system, all that is assumed is that you know how to make deadlines. That is literally the biggest thing a bachelors degree tells an employer. And actually, that's not necessarily a bad thing because that is a very important skill. However, once you screw up, any job you apply for afterward that is worth anything will have an HR department that will find out you screwed up on your first job and that's it. No job offer.

Finally, many people are realizing that the watering down has (amazingly!) made for crumby college graduates. I was reading an article the other day which confirmed a suspicion a few people I know have: a majority of computer science graduates can't program. Specifically, it has been argued that a certain portion of CS students have a certain mindset at the start of their studies that is completely wrong and they rarely change the mindset to the correct way of thinking. The people who think incorrectly can't program and pass these so called "fizzbuzz" tests. I also see this problem occurring in my own field and others have seen it in their respective fields. Universities are graduating people who can't do what their degree says they can do.

So put this all together (and there other factors I haven't mentioned) and you can start to understand why there are a large portion of college graduates who have no decent career. College is not for everyone and unfortunately, we live in a country where politicians and idiot HS guidance counselors say that college is key to success. The fact of the matter is that it is NOT. Like everything in the world, when used properly, college will pay off big time. When misused by people with unrealistic expectations, it comes back to bite you in the ass. You absolutely can make a great living off what is taught at trade schools. I have yet to meet 1 electrician or plumber that says "I hate my job and the money, I wish I went to college all those years back".

Also, to toss in something that most people are getting annoyed at, the idea that "people with a college education will earn on average $1M more in their lifetime". The big big problem here is that there is the implication that a college degree = $1M. For 1) this is an average. For every guy who went on to be Steve Jobs, there will be a thousand people who probably made no net gain going to college. Also, many people will be successful regardless of going to college. The wealthy and upper middle class are examples of this. They have, what I like to say, "more access to success". In other words, they are surrounded by people and probably have parents who know how to be successful and show them how to be financially intelligent and what have you. These kinds of people are most likely going to be successful regardless as to whether or not they go to college. Of course, you KNOW they're all going to college. The thing is, of course, it never mattered if they went to college but at the end of the day, their success gets tallied up with the "went to college" part of that calculation. On the other end of things, you have people who are surrounded by unsuccessful people who will fall into the lifestyle of not being successful and wont go to college and these people will go into the "didn't go to college" side. So really, the argument should be "People who make $1M more in their lifetime proooooobably went to college". In other words, correlation =/= causation.