Young adults and being sexually responsible [slight rant]

[GodlessTickler]

Dude, I'm talking down and dirty fucking; knockin' the bottom outta that thang, taking the skin boat to Tuna Town, pouring the coal to that hot oven; gettin laid, gettin some sugar, gettin lucky; taking junior on a spelunking expedition; doing the nasty, the horizontal watusi, and the wild thing, Depending on with whom I was indulging, I might go the traditional route of General Masengill, or for matters of security, I might attack from a rear approach; taking it down the Old Dirt Road; the Hershey Highway; the Chocolate Channel; the Cocoa Canal; the Bosco Boulevard; can you dig it? Oooooh, bad choice of words on my part! ~

What can I say drew, your a poet. I get the picture, and with all respect WAY more of a picture than I really wanted.

The scientific community??! And around here, that would be who? You and the "Bay of Pigs?" Sorry pal. You weren't there. I was. You see, at that time in Korea, all of the working girls were required to get a medical checkup once a week. Ahjimah pays for this. Also the girls were required to present a VD card stamped with their most recent test results upon request of any prospective client. Ahjimah will have all her girls inspected on the same day and pay a flat fee. For example, the girls from The Lion's Den went every Tuesday, while the girls from the Crown Club went every Thursday. So Tuesday nights I was at the Lion's Den, and Thursday nights I was at the Crown Club. I'd make sure they were checked that day plus I knew most of their history. All the girls were either on birth control or had hysterectomies, so pregnancy wasn't an issue.

For one thing, there are several scientists on here, for another, if your methods had been revolutionary... I could have help get you published, but as we see they are somewhat standard. And what did I say, if you had multiple partners, and they WEREN'T tested (VD card = tested) so there you go, and I said you were lucky with pregnancy IF no birth control ("on birth control or had hysterectomies") so thats taken care of too... that's a scientific fact that has nothing to do with who was where, but you did explain it and I appreciate that. I gave you a bit too much credit was all, I assumed you were practicing what you preached, as in absolutely no insemination, but what your ACTUALLY talking about is just using birth control... something you say we SHOULDEN 'T teach. What your really making a good case for is being responsible with partners (VD cards or other tests) and using birth control (interesting your problem with birth control is that it fails, but you don't think you were lucky that it didn't fail on you?). Awesome, we agree! (actually I assume you are saying do as I say not as I do, but we will come back to that, I don't think that's a completely unfair thing to say for the record)

Like I said. Common sense. No rocket science. Simply keeping in mind the potential consequences and never letting your dick take control. The other guys there were catching shit right and left because their dicks would lead and they would follow.

Yes, common sense... birth control, tested partners, sounds great to me.

You're a pretty bright guy too, Godless. But like many here, you see sex as the be-all-end-all of existance, and any suggestion of curtailing sex in any way is an anathema to everything for which you stand, even when it results in disease and unwanted pregnancy. We've been down this road before. You already know all my answers to the questions you ask, so let's just save some time and end it here.

This part I will leave alone, except to say, I find freedom to make one's own choices pretty important, more than sex. Now, I agree we have been down this road, and actually the ONLY reason I decided to engage was because you brought your personal experiences into it. I typically ignore personal experience because it's a sort of attack on the person kind of problem, if a person makes a brilliant argument for vegetarianism, the fact that he eats meat isn't a flaw in his argument. Similarly, the fact that you don't (or didn't) abstain isn't proof that your argument is bad, I will give you that. My confusion came because I gave you credit, I assumed that you did abstain from intercourse when you didn't want children. Anal maybe, oral, masturbation with a partner, but no intercourse, because that is what you advocate. I wanted to make the difference clear to people reading the thread. Come to find out, you TRUSTED my method in your own life... mine not yours (testing and birth control, not intercourse abstinence)! Now does that change the argument, no, but is it interesting absolutely.

 

[huskys]

To get back on topic, first I'd like to congratulate you Giggle for bringing it up.
I work part time security at a few nightclubs down here in Melbourne, and see first hand various 'unplanned liasons', so to speak.
But whether its planned or not, every 24 drugstore (yes we have them down here), or even the local 7-eleven, not to mention the public toilets themselves, all have huge supplies of various contraceptives.
So there is no excuse whatsoever to be in the situation of your friend, and nothing except for 'gross neglegence and stupidity', can be used to describe someone who has been in that situation 3 times!!
Now I'm not a prude preaching abstinence, but a bit of self control and forward planning would go a looooong way with a lot of young people today!!!

 

[kis123]

There are so many 'pill babies' in the world it's not even funny. All it takes is for a woman to miss ONE pill, or take it at the wrong time, or for one of her pills to be defective (which happens more than people are comfy thinking) to risk pregnancy.

Common sense means wrap it up every time, depending on the honesty and reliability of strangers is a fool's notion.

Bella

I religiously took the pill from age 17 to manage my cycles. I didn't become "active" until I went to college. I was one of those wierd types who felt sex was for adults so I didn't indulge until I became one. I didn't want to shame my family with a teen pregnancy (wow, I thought of someone other than myself-what a novel concept). I took my pill at precicesly the same time every single day-I didn't play around with it. I was told these pills were 99.9% effective. Well, .01% will be 22 years old this coming August, hence there are no complete safeguards against pregnancy except abstinence.

But, since it's highly likely that adolescents are not going to abstain, they need all the tools. Even then, an unplanned-unwanted pregnancy can occur. I made the choice to keep my kid; not every woman does and she'll deal with the consequences of her decisions either way. It was very hard raising him; I assume it must be hard to give a kid away or to terminate the pregnancy.

It's all about choice; decide to have sex or not. Decide to practice safe sex or not. Decide whether to deal with the consequences of your decision-making; unfortunately there isn't an "or not" on this one because you will deal one way or the other with the results of your decisions (good or bad). But good sex education is to give you all or as many options available. I chose abstinence until adulthood because I was given all the options, not because I was given abstinence as the only option.

 

[kis123]

But scratch just a little and it's "Let a few of them get AIDS to scare the others into line."

It's not about what's best for the children. It's about control.

You're right to a certain degree-it's about control of the child until the child can control his-herself. The last thing a real parent wants is their child to have sex with reckless abandon and end up pregnant or with a STD.

But a "real" parent also realizes that they have to release that control and responsibility to that child and hope against hope they don't fall over the cliff with it. Freedom and rights come with responsibility-if you're going to be sexually active, please handle it responsibly. Any guy who thinks the "pull-out" method is responsible is insane and you'd never catch me in bed with him (even when I was young and didn't know better). Any young woman who lets him get away with it is immature and basically stupid. If he won't take the time to put on a condom, he's showing you that his needs to have sex his way override your need to be safe.

 

[MrMacphisto]

I just got a text message from my best guy friend. It said "Where can I get the morning after pill?"

You know what that means.

This is something that many people have to face at one point in their lives, but this kid has had to face this type of scare three other times.

As his friend, I worry about it, and don't want to see his life go down the drain over something like this, so I told him where to get it, and then I ripped him a new one.

And then there was another young man I knew who had a huge pregnancy scare with an ex girlfriend.

Ridiculous!

I really don't understand how people my age, if they're going to fuck like rabbits (and they probably are), can't at least be responsible enough to take care of themselves.

Condoms are easily purchased at any drug store in America. Birth control, is also easily accessible. I know most young women are afraid of their parents finding out, but 1. Parents should be the ones helping their children in this type of situation and 2. you don't need your parents to get it anyway.

Sorry, I try not to rant on these threads, but I have been thinking about this problem for a while and it really bothers me.

Kids my age are so irresponsible.

</end-rant>

What are your opinions on this subject?

It's all about oral. If young people engaged in less "going all the way" and more "eating out", then there would be less pregnancy scares.

 

[MrPartickler]

There's a reason why anecdotal evidence is should always be treated as suspect when making generalizations. It seldom is a reliable indicator of reality. If we really care to know what's actually happening with "kids of this generation" we have to look at something more objective and comprehensive than what our own personal experiences suggest.

The <a href="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf">U.S. Teenage Pregnancy Statistics National and State Trends and Trends by Race and Ethnicity</a> has compiled pregnancy statistics of interest for the period from 1972 to 2002. I posted the summary below, but if you scan the (extensive) data you'll readily see the overall trend in this country has been on the decline. Of course, some locales, nationalities, etc. show increases, but overall you could argue that on average kids today are being significantly more responsible in this regard than they were 30 years ago. Remember that it's the near misses and extreme cases like (TG's friend) we tend to remember and announce to the world. We often don't even give a second thought to the more responsible kids, who are often in the silent majority.

Summary
Each year, almost 750,000 teenage women aged 15–19 become pregnant. The teenage pregnancy rate in this country is at its lowest level in 30 years, down 36% since its peak in 1990. A growing body of research suggests that both increased abstinence and changes in contraceptive practice are responsible for recent declines in teenage pregnancy.1
• The teenage pregnancy rate among those who ever had intercourse declined 28% between 1990 and 2002.
• The teenage birthrate in 2002 was 30% lower than the peak rate of 61.8 births per 1,000 women, reached in 1991.
• Between 1988 and 2000, teenage pregnancy rates declined in every state and in the District of Columbia.
• By 2002, the teenage abortion rate had dropped by 50% from its peak in 1988.
• From 1986 to 2002, the proportion of teenage pregnancies ending in abortion declined more than one-quarter from 46% to 34% of pregnancies among 15–19-year-olds.
• Among black women aged 15–19, the nationwide pregnancy rate fell by 40% between 1990 and 2002.
• Among white teenagers, it declined by 34% during the same time period.
• Among Hispanic teenagers, who may be of any race, the pregnancy rate increased slightly from 1991–1992, but by 2002 was 19% lower than the 1990 rate.

 

[chicago]

There's a reason why anecdotal evidence is should always be treated as suspect when making generalizations. It seldom is a reliable indicator of reality. If we really care to know what's actually happening with "kids of this generation" we have to look at something more objective and comprehensive than what our own personal experiences suggest.

The <a href="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf">U.S. Teenage Pregnancy Statistics National and State Trends and Trends by Race and Ethnicity</a> has compiled pregnancy statistics of interest for the period from 1972 to 2002. I posted the summary below, but if you scan the (extensive) data you'll readily see the overall trend in this country has been on the decline. Of course, some locales, nationalities, etc. show increases, but overall you could argue that on average kids today are being significantly more responsible in this regard than they were 30 years ago. Remember that it's the near misses and extreme cases like (TG's friend) we tend to remember and announce to the world. We often don't even give a second thought to the more responsible kids, who are often in the silent majority.

However, according to http://www.teenpregnancy.org/...

Despite hitting the lowest level in 30 years, teen pregnancy rates are still high. In fact, 31% of teenage girls get pregnant at least once before they reach age 20, resulting in almost 750,000 teen pregnancies a year.1, 2 At this level, the United States has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the fully industrialized world.

and

The U.S. still leads the fully industrialized world in teen pregnancy and birth rates - by a wide margin. In fact, the U.S. rates are nearly double Great Britain's, at least four times those of France and Germany, and more than ten times that of Japan.

 

[Icycle]

For more data on teen pregnancy rates worldwide, check out the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_pregnancy

The teen birthrate in the United States is almost 7 times higher than that of the Netherlands. The Netherlands has a widely praised system of comprehensive sex education, which focuses on values, attitudes, communication and negotiation skills, as well as the biological aspects of reproduction. It is probably not a coincidence that they have a higher than average age of first intercourse and increased levels of contraceptive use.

 

[MrPartickler]

However, according to http://www.teenpregnancy.org/...

While those statistics may be troubling in some ways, I'm sure you can see it's a somewhat different problem than the general statement "kids of my generation" implies. Now you're effectively comparing U.S. society to other societies (as opposed to generational trends solely within the U.S.). And the differences between countries and cultures are numerous; they neither begin nor end at teen pregnancies.

Relative populations, demographics, immigration laws and trends, sex/contraceptive education, etc., however, all play a role in those numbers. (Japan, for example, is considered one of the most ethnically homogeneous societies.) For instance, the increases to the U.S. teen pregnancy rates recently have been fairly localized (e.g., latino/hispanic community and even certain states). So you really have to start identifying all the similarities and accounting for differences between each of these societies--apart from the fact that they're all "industrialized"--to properly compare them and figure out what's really happening.

But again, I think it's a separate issue.

 

[Icycle]

The scientific community??! And around here, that would be who? You and the "Bay of Pigs?" Sorry pal. You weren't there. I was. You see, at that time in Korea, all of the working girls were required to get a medical checkup once a week. Ahjimah pays for this. Also the girls were required to present a VD card stamped with their most recent test results upon request of any prospective client. Ahjimah will have all her girls inspected on the same day and pay a flat fee. For example, the girls from The Lion's Den went every Tuesday, while the girls from the Crown Club went every Thursday. So Tuesday nights I was at the Lion's Den, and Thursday nights I was at the Crown Club. I'd make sure they were checked that day plus I knew most of their history. All the girls were either on birth control or had hysterectomies, so pregnancy wasn't an issue.

I'm guessing you must not have had access to comprehensive sex education while you were in school, because you would have known that your choices weren't quite as "safe" as you seem to think they were. Regarding STDs, a person can be contagious before they start to test positive or exhibit any visible symptoms. Not to mention some STDs like HPV don't even have an inexpensive test available, so they are not routinely tested for. And to top it off, how could you be certain that the doctor and madam weren't colluding to fake clean tests? People often lie about their sexual histories, and those with a strong financial incentive have even more reason to lie.

Regarding pregnancy, you would know that the pill is 99.9% effective when used perfectly, but in typical use it is closer to 90% effective. By combining the pill with a condom, you can boost the pregnancy prevention rate much higher, because you will prevent the pregnancy as long as either method didn't fail.

So by refusing to use a condom, you were exposing yourself to a much higher risk of STDs, and you were giving up the opportunity to reduce your risk of unwanted fatherhood even further.

 

[Icycle]

The fact is, he almost always uses a condom, but like some men he feels it takes away from the over-all sensation. So right now he's been playing the pull-out game. Which is a game often lost. That being said, two of the past times where he had a pregnancy scare has been from breaking said condom.

Either the kid can't read, or he needs a new lesson in how to use condoms.

It's not just about condoms, though. It's also about getting tested, and it's also about the female doing her part as well.

As you mention, your friend's partners bear a significant proportion of the responsibility for these pregnancy scares. They should know how to use a condom correctly to help prevent it from breaking. They should be using some kind of hormonal contraceptive. And they should not allow a guy to talk them into having sex while using the pull out method as the sole form of contraceptive. This could be a case of low self-esteem or lack of assertiveness of their parts. Or it could simply be a lack of information due to the poor state of sex education in this country.

 

[chicago]

As you mention, your friend's partners bear a significant proportion of the responsibility for these pregnancy scares. They should know how to use a condom correctly to help prevent it from breaking. They should be using some kind of hormonal contraceptive. And they should not allow a guy to talk them into having sex while using the pull out method as the sole form of contraceptive. This could be a case of low self-esteem or lack of assertiveness of their parts. Or it could simply be a lack of information due to the poor state of sex education in this country.

I don't blame sex education, at least where I live. The high schools in my area, (suburbs of Chicago) are very good and very thorough in teaching sex ed. However, I think you may have hit the nail on the head when it comes to low self-esteem.

That being said, the way my friend came to me so nonchalantly is annoying. He doesn't seem to care that he's risking a lot with what he's doing. Also, I volunteered to help him and her (despite not liking her very much) in getting birth control, and he dismissed it with a wave of his hand.

I know her parents are very religious, but there are ways of getting the pill without parental knowledge. They just don't seem to be too bothered by what they're doing.

However, I don't think the morning-after pill is very healthy, just like abortions are not very healthy to an extent.

Whatever. I tried.

 

[BellaRisa]

But good sex education is to give you all or as many options available. I chose abstinence until adulthood because I was given all the options, not because I was given abstinence as the only option.

Thank you Kis. I love what you posted. Like you, I waited until early adulthood, not because abstinence was my only option but because it was the *best* of all the options I was shown. I'll always thank my mom for teaching me that sex was a lovely, fun thing when you were ready, meaning you knew how to be safe, you could handle it emotionally, and you could support yourself and possibly a child if you had to do so on your own without damaging your future. Because of her I waited until the young man in question was someone I loved and trusted, someone I knew for a fact was healthy and practiced safety, and whom I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt would be there for me no matter what. And I'll teach my two daughters the same when the time comes.

Incidentally, that boy married me a year later and we're coming up on our 14th anniversary

Bella

 

[Redmage]

Now I'm not a prude preaching abstinence, but a bit of self control and forward planning would go a looooong way with a lot of young people today!!!

Yes it would. Unfortunately self control and forward planning are the sorts of skills you learn from experience, and the sort that is hampered by rampant hormones. In other words, they're exactly the sorts of things that young people are less likely to be good at.

 

[chicago]

Yes it would. Unfortunately self control and forward planning are the sorts of skills you learn from experience, and the sort that is hampered by rampant hormones. In other words, they're exactly the sorts of things that young people are less likely to be good at.

Honestly, the hormone thing? Is bullshit.

I grew up the same way a lot of people did. I had hormones. Still have them. But they're not an excuse for being careless and apathetic.

 

[Redmage]

Honestly, the hormone thing? Is bullshit.

I grew up the same way a lot of people did. I had hormones. Still have them. But they're not an excuse for being careless and apathetic.

I had them too, and not so long ago that I can't remember what it was like. Youth and biochemistry aren't excuses for stupidity, Mairead, but they are explanations. They're facts that have to be taken into account.

There are always exceptions, but on the whole young people will do foolish, impulsive things. That's part of how we learn not to do such things. So this trend has to be considered when setting up sex education programs.

That being said, the way my friend came to me so nonchalantly is annoying. He doesn't seem to care that he's risking a lot with what he's doing. Also, I volunteered to help him and her (despite not liking her very much) in getting birth control, and he dismissed it with a wave of his hand....

Whatever. I tried.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him put on a condom. (ooo, visual I did not need!)

He'll learn the hard way, and all you can do is hope that it's not the hardest way.

Any guy who thinks the "pull-out" method is responsible is insane and you'd never catch me in bed with him (even when I was young and didn't know better). Any young woman who lets him get away with it is immature and basically stupid. If he won't take the time to put on a condom, he's showing you that his needs to have sex his way override your need to be safe.

Absolutely. The cure for that is first, teaching kids how to use condoms, and second making it part of their internal culture by strong and continuous reinforcement. A young man or woman should no more consider sex without a condom than they would chew with their mouth full or go without bathing. It's got to be that kind of reflex if it's to serve as a substitute for skills they won't acquire until later.

My response was to an argument that was advocating abstinence-only sex education: not teaching them about safe sex at all, but just telling them not to do it - and as Drew said, let a few of those who disregard that teaching get AIDS to teach the others a lesson.

That's why I said that attitude is not about what's best for the children. It's just about controlling them - and not for their benefit.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Honestly, the hormone thing? Is bullshit.

I grew up the same way a lot of people did. I had hormones. Still have them. But they're not an excuse for being careless and apathetic.

But what is careless? I don't feel having sex w/o a condom is careless, you just have know what you're doing. Using the pullout method isn't careless either if you know what you're doing. Your friend would have to be considered careless though since this apparently isn't the first time.

 

[Redmage]

But what is careless? I don't feel having sex w/o a condom is careless, you just have know what you're doing. Using the pullout method isn't careless either if you know what you're doing.

Eh, yes, it pretty much is. Semen deposited anywhere near the vagina can lead to pregnancy. It doesn't have to be put directly inside. And there is frequently some produced before orgasm.

To top it all off, relying on your ability to think clearly in the seconds before your orgasm may not be in the dictionary under "careless," but if the folks at Websters were a little less straitlaced it probably would be.

 

[negrosaki]

This kind of thing makes me angry. My first girlfriend had this issue. She broke up with me, then got together with a new guy. I found out in August that she was pregnant with his kid (not mine, I'm a virgin, and it's staying that way until I get married). What really gets me, is that she's proud she went and did that. Proud. And I found out that her due date is in about 20 days, and she plans to put my name on the birth certificate as the father to get back at me for "stealing 6 months of her life" (what bull...she asked me out), by killing any hopes of me attaining a college education by making me pay child support. And I don't need legal assistance; I can rebuff the claim easily enough, and without a lawyer. But, to stay on topic...the fact that you would throw your life away...she could have had tons of government support for college, she could've gotten decent scholarships...and now she's 8 months along working at Target. Seriously...it just pisses me off.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having sex because you are horny, it's all about safety. There's nothing wrong with sex as long as you are safe when you do it.

 

[chicago]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having sex because you are horny, it's all about safety. There's nothing wrong with sex as long as you are safe when you do it.

Safe like fucking raw and pulling out?

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Safe like fucking raw and pulling out?

For some people that works. Some people know what they're doing and they don't have to worry about pregnancies. That's not going to work for everyone though. You just have to know your limits I guess.

 

[chicago]

For some people that works. Some people know what they're doing and they don't have to worry about pregnancies. That's not going to work for everyone though. You just have to know your limits I guess.

You must have learned about sex ed in an alley or something.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

You must have learned about sex ed in an alley or something.

If I did it has kept me from having to worry about any situations that have been discussed in the thread. People can have sex w/o a condom and still be safe. Wearing a condom doesn't equal safe sex.

 

[Redmage]

If I did it has kept me from having to worry about any situations that have been discussed in the thread.

It might have helped you not worry about such things, but unfortunately it didn't keep you from having to.

People can have sex w/o a condom and still be safe.

Of course they can. They just stick to a single tested, monogamous partner and use birth control pills.

Wearing a condom doesn't equal safe sex.

Very few people think it does. But it does equal safer sex.