Red light cameras

[Bugman]

Just wondering what everyone thinks about these.There is a bill in the Texas House that if passed would make them illegal state wide.

We have them installed at some of the more dangerous intersections and according to the APD it has reduced accidents significantly.

As someone who tends to favor the libertarian view,i don't like the idea of Big Brother watching over us like that.On the other hand if these cameras do reduce accidents and save some lives it becomes more difficult to oppose them.

I have no sympathy for people who blow through red lights or stop signs by the way.It's an act of incredible stupidity and arrogance.What say you?

 

[General Zod]

Just wondering what everyone things about these.There is a bill in the Texas House that if passed would make them illegal state wide.

We have them installed at some of the more dangerous intersections and according to the APD it has reduced accidents significantly.

As someone who tends to favor the libertarian view,i don't like the idea of Big Brother watching over us like that.On the other hand if these cameras do reduce accidents and save some lives it becomes more difficult to oppose them.

I have no sympathy for people who blow through red lights or stop signs by the way.It's an act of incredible stupidity and arrogance.What say you?

As a trucker,I have mixed feelings on them

I do agree that they probably cut down on people who "blow through" them

But sometimes it is hard to come to a stop before you get to the intersection For example,how wet are the roads? Never a good idea to slam the brakes on when the roads are wet,or snowy

I wonder how the cameras are set up Like say the light had just turned yellow,or red as a vehicle just got into the intersection Not a good idea to come to a full stop there,unless traffic ahead of you came to a sudden stop

 

[Babbles]

Ditto here --- "Big Brother" automatically comes to mind,
<a href="http://www.glitter-graphics.com"><img src="http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/948/948031zthzv86p1h.jpg" width=90 height=68 border=0></a>
though as you say, it's hard to argue with saving lives.

<a href="http://www.glitter-graphics.com"><img src="http://dl10.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1314/1314320vmpdfkv77g.jpg" width=200 height=140 border=0></a>

But I also agree with the General that depending upon the condition of the roads,
and the quickness with which the light is programmed to change from yellow to red,

this camera flash won't tell the whole story & people may be unfairly nailed.

Someone sliding through a yellow light may not even see it turn red, but they'll be given a ticket since their bumper didn't quite make it through....

 

[General Zod]

Ditto here --- "Big Brother" automatically comes to mind,
<a href="http://www.glitter-graphics.com"><img src="http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/948/948031zthzv86p1h.jpg" width=90 height=68 border=0></a>
though as you say, it's hard to argue with saving lives.

<a href="http://www.glitter-graphics.com"><img src="http://dl10.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1314/1314320vmpdfkv77g.jpg" width=200 height=140 border=0></a>

But I also agree with the General that depending upon the condition of the roads,
and the quickness with which the light is programmed to change from yellow to red,

this camera flash won't tell the whole story & people may be unfairly nailed.

Someone sliding through a yellow light may not even see it turn red, but they'll be given a ticket since their bumper didn't quite make it through....

Not only that,but say a friend or family member is using your vehicle,and they blow through a red light You will get the ticket,even though someone else used your vehicle

Unless the camera takes a pic of the driver?

 

[Bugman]

As a trucker,I have mixed feelings on them

I do agree that they probably cut down on people who "blow through" them

But sometimes it is hard to come to a stop before you get to the intersection For example,how wet are the roads? Never a good idea to slam the brakes on when the roads are wet,or snowy

I wonder how the cameras are set up Like say the light had just turned yellow,or red as a vehicle just got into the intersection Not a good idea to come to a full stop there,unless traffic ahead of you came to a sudden stop

Yeah,i hear you.You drive a big rig,i drive a bus and they just don't stop like a car.Some idiots seem to think they do,but that's another story.

And there are times when it's safer to take the light.I'll admit i've done it just because it was not possible to stop when the light hit yellow.

I'm not sure how those cameras work honestly.It's the people who do it deliberately that grind my gears.

 

[General Zod]

Yeah,i hear you.You drive a big rig,i drive a bus and they just don't stop like a car.Some idiots seem to think they do,but that's another story.

And there are times when it's safer to take the light.I'll admit i've done it just because it was not possible to stop when the light hit yellow.

I'm not sure how those cameras work honestly.It's the people who do it deliberately that grind my gears.

One thing I will do,especially if the roads are wet is,if I see the light ahead has been green for awhile,I will slow down some That way I won't have to brake so hard

Rigs have ABS for the most part nowadays,but why chance a hard brake?

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

I could be wrong. But, I believe they're supposed to be one a one second time delay to avoid snagging those who are just coasting through the yellow and not quite making it. I'm not sure I support anything other than flagrant violations being nailed. But, I support having traffic cameras around for the purpose of quicker alerts in case of accidents, possible evidence if something is caught on tape, etc. Like everything else, it can be abused. But, the benefits may outweigh the perceived violation.

 

[Adam]

I think there are good arguments either way, but a perfect solution to neither. If I didn't hear so many claims of a number of them being rigged, I might not mind as much. Then again, I'm a pretty careful driver and never been caught by one of those cameras, so it hasn't affected me yet.

 

[xionking]

They are there to save lives, and if statistics reflect a significant reduction in accidents then I feel it's a tad selfish that individuals within a community would want to make them illegal simply because they're afraid of not being able to make it through an orange light.

I appreciate the concern that people have about getting done with a ticket when they aren't in the wrong though. It's happened to me. I contested it.

-Xionking

 

[gluestick]

You mean "Money Cameras".
Safety my ass. Cities implement these and run to the bank laughing.
Numerous studies have shown these things result in more rear end collisions due to people slamming on their brakes. They're also problematic in wintry or wet conditions when its actually safer to coast through a late yellow than hit the brakes and skid. Yellows have been rigged to be shorter to catch more people. People making legal right on reds get ticketed often. Also if the camera doesn't accurately capture your plate number it "guesses" based on the make and model and car owners with similar license plates. But in the end these cameras generate millions in revenue for cities.

 

[asutickler]

One of our local municipalities here in the Phoenix metro area was caught drastically shortening the yellow light times on their camera-equipped stoplights, just so that they could meet the ticket quota specified in their contract with the camera company.

Red light cameras only reduce accidents if you don't take into account the number of additional rear-end collisions that they cause. According to a study conducted by the city of Charlotte, NC in 2001, the installation of red light cameras increased rear-end accidents by 16%. In a 2002 study, the city of San Diego discovered a whopping 37% increase after red light cameras were installed. (Source: http://americancityandcounty.com/news/traffic_light_camera/ )

 

[MrMacphisto]

In short, it's a money making scheme for the state and for the contractors of the lights.

As ASU mentioned, Charlotte was a major case where it proved to be a net negative.

Then again, it doesn't help that Charlotte has some of the worst drivers in the country. North Carolina is probably second only to Florida when it comes to bad drivers.

 

[Bugman]

One of our local municipalities here in the Phoenix metro area was caught drastically shortening the yellow light times on their camera-equipped stoplights, just so that they could meet the ticket quota specified in their contract with the camera company.

Well isn't that special!

 

[desdemona]

One of my technicians got nailed in Columbus coming home from a convention. She said she didn't see the light. It was not only a PICTURE - it was actually a VIDEO she could access online to watch herself. She asked if she could submit the $85 ticket with her expenses and I said......you can try. >.O

 

[Redmage]

Hmm. Mixed feelings. I disapprove of surveillance cameras in general. On the one hand, they do help with crime - not only traffic cameras but cameras of all sorts. We're forever seeing footage from this camera or that putting the nails in the coffin of a murderer, kidnapper, or holdup man.

On the other hand we don't see all the footage of perfectly normal people going about their lawful occasions. Not only is it not newsworthy, that footage, but it would remind people of just how much of their daily life is lived on film.

As far as traffic cameras, I think they reveal a deeper issue. I think we need to ask ourselves, do we want traffic laws at all? If we do, then how do we want them to be enforced? We can either have cops in patrol cars with radar guns, or we can have automated robots.

As for cities making money off these cameras, it's true they do. But it's not like cities make a profit. If they don't make the money that way then they'll either have to make it some other way, or cut back on their services. The voters need to decide what they want and live with it.

Personally, I just wish a camera was smart enough to know when "running a red light" presents no safety hazard. If I stop at 3AM, see no traffic coming in any direction, and motor on through the light, then I don't see any public safety excuse for giving me a ticket.

 

[MrMacphisto]

Hmm. Mixed feelings. I disapprove of surveillance cameras in general. On the one hand, they do help with crime - not only traffic cameras but cameras of all sorts. We're forever seeing footage from this camera or that putting the nails in the coffin of a murderer, kidnapper, or holdup man.

On the other hand we don't see all the footage of perfectly normal people going about their lawful occasions. Not only is it not newsworthy, that footage, but it would remind people of just how much of their daily life is lived on film.

As far as traffic cameras, I think they reveal a deeper issue. I think we need to ask ourselves, do we want traffic laws at all? If we do, then how do we want them to be enforced? We can either have cops in patrol cars with radar guns, or we can have automated robots.

As for cities making money off these cameras, it's true they do. But it's not like cities make a profit. If they don't make the money that way then they'll either have to make it some other way, or cut back on their services. The voters need to decide what they want and live with it.

Personally, I just wish a camera was smart enough to know when "running a red light" presents no safety hazard. If I stop at 3AM, see no traffic coming in any direction, and motor on through the light, then I don't see any public safety excuse for giving me a ticket.

Your last point is a very good one. I generally agree with your post here, but the money making part is bothersome, because the people who are making a profit are the contractors.

For example, I know that the light cameras in my city primarily make money for the people who installed the cameras, not the state. While I realize that every city probably has a different policy, here, the motivation would appear to be making money off of what should simply be law enforcement.

Whenever profit becomes the motivation behind enforcing a law, that enforcement becomes more Machiavellian in nature (like the shortening of yellow light cycles).

 

[General Zod]

In short, it's a money making scheme for the state and for the contractors of the lights.

As ASU mentioned, Charlotte was a major case where it proved to be a net negative.

Then again, it doesn't help that Charlotte has some of the worst drivers in the country. North Carolina is probably second only to Florida when it comes to bad drivers.

Ain't that the truth about NC drivers I used to love driving my rig in that state Not anymore

 

[Redmage]

The thing is, Mac, contractors are going to make a profit off law enforcement. It's inevitable. If it's not traffic cameras, then it will be radar guns, and kevlar vests, and patrol cars. The police need to buy stuff.

I think the best we can hope for is to limit things like a contractual quota for traffic tickets. That will mean keeping a much closer eye than we do on our municipal purchases, and insisting on more transparency on that than we usually get.

And it also means relying on and encouraging the media to act as our watchdogs on these issues.

Your last point is a very good one. I generally agree with your post here, but the money making part is bothersome, because the people who are making a profit are the contractors.

For example, I know that the light cameras in my city primarily make money for the people who installed the cameras, not the state. While I realize that every city probably has a different policy, here, the motivation would appear to be making money off of what should simply be law enforcement.

Whenever profit becomes the motivation behind enforcing a law, that enforcement becomes more Machiavellian in nature (like the shortening of yellow light cycles).