A little rant about the System...

[Ticklish9's]

Before I start this, two things should be made clear: A) I realize there are more important things to worry about right now, there is a war going on after all, but this particular incident irked me a great deal; and B) I am not prejudiced, I'm not a racist or whatever you want to call me, and though many of you may wish to disagree with me on the latter point by the end of my post, that is EXACTLY the point I am trying to get across (and if that statement seems confusing at this point, please read on with an open mind and hear me out, and you'll understand).

I am in a social problems course taught by a practicing therapist who is very heavily liberal. I am personally an outspoken libertarian(political quote of the day: The only thing worse than a Republican is a Democrat!) so the sparks were set to fly to begin with, and frequently do, as we have so far covered Gun Control, Abortion, Criminality and Legislation, and so forth. Today's topic and the source of my frustration - "Racism and Prejudice".

I am having trouble wording exactly what I want to say, but my point is heading towards this: it is not the government's right, duty, or responsibility to interfere with discrimination. In fact, I personally believe the government should have as little power as possible. Legislating how people are allowed to feel about other people or groups is awfully like thought control. Try this for a little study - pull a person aside and say "Hey, there is a new study out proving that black people have a lower IQ". Wait for the impassioned response, or the disgust. Now try the same thing with another person, but sub "black" for "white". Wait for the shrug.

Now, I've been the subject of discrimination before - I'm white and proud of what white people have accomplished, and most people automatically make the transition from White Pride to Nazism. In point of fact, of course, I have given speeches before on how no race is superior or inferior to another and I firmly believe this. But if every other group can have a pride month or pride day or pride march, at least let me stand up and declare my own pride without PREJUDGING me. Talk about freakin hypocrisy.

All right, I'm sorry. This is totally irrelevant to anything at all, but I had to vent somewhere and, y'all being the most intelligent group of people I know and thus most likely to understand where I am coming from, you got the dubious "honor". Thanks for listening, and for those that tuned out by paragraph two, no shame is involved - I don't blame you. Anyway, I'm done now. I'll shut my trap. Thanks for putting up with my rant.

 

[Krokus]

Yes!

I totally agree! I am a white male, and have alot of "white pride"! But I am NOT racist! Took alot of guts to post this, and for that I salute you!

 

[sushi854]

First of all, I am aware that reverse discrimination occurs in this country. That said, I would like to address your opinion of how government should figure into this equation. Government and society are not the same thing, although our government is a part of our society. Government does not legislate how one may think but how one may act. The First Amendment protects the right of free speech to the point that it infringes upon the rights of others. After that, it is no longer protected. There are no laws against merely being a racist.

In any democratic society, the amount power a government posesses is the amount of power that the people allow it. Our government does not rule by force. Sure, lots of people have gripes about our government but if a significant percentage of the population truly wanted the government structure or its value system changed it would be. I would think that the majority in this country want civil rights enforced therefore we give this power to the government. I certainly would not want to live in a society where everyone has the right to do whatever they want. The government serves to ensure that the rights of all are protected.

 

[MistressMia]

Ticklish9's

This is a valid thread. The racial slurs take away from your point though. I would advise you to edit them out before I or another Mod do. It looks much better if you edit your own stuff btw. There is absolutely Nothing wrong with venting.

I am of a "minority" ethnic group, but I agree with you 100% as far as having an ethnic "pride of the month". In all fairness to the cause though, I must say that it is done to make other groups aware of accomplishments by non-white members of society. After all, most of us have learned History as "Armstrong: first man on the moon!" Not, "Armstrong: first white-man on the moon!" Also, I believe the term "reverse discrimination" is used to mean discrimination by your own race. Not non-white to white.

Sushi,
You made a very good point as well.

That's my two cents. Be well, all. 😎

 

[sushi854]

Apparently I should have elaborated further on the "reverse discrimination" point. The point that I was trying to make is that I realize that many white people may feel discriminated against by good-intentioned practices such as affirmative action. I also realize that this requires much more explanation than I have just given. I don't have the time now but will update this post when I do

 

[Ticklish9's]

Hmmm...

Now that I've cooled off a bit, I can look back and say "wow, what was I thinking?" In my more rational moments, I'm an advocate of simply dropping all the hyphens and calling everyone American - no more "White people did this, Black people did this, Asian people did this", but rather "We Humans did all of this". Sure, I was angry at being labeled a racist simply because I refuse to toe the line - and I was angry at the degree of power the word "racist" has in this country, in that it can ruin careers, lives, homes, and relationships. It also angers me when people refuse to acknowledge obvious differences between the racial groups - you think it's just chance that 90% of the NBA is African American? Simple common sense dictates otherwise. I normally feel (when not gripped with irrational rage) that the solution to race relations is admit we aren't all equal in all areas, but rather superior in some and inferior in other's, build on our strengths, and get over this whole racial hypocrisy. Then we can start working on the real problems - like a vastly oversized government, an unfairly levied income tax, and the growing acceptance of censorship. Oh, and legalizing certain substances is a priority as well, according to my college buddies here. 🙂

 

[MN Tikl]

I am white. I don't have any problem with white pride, black pride, [anything pride]. But I do have a problem with people who use pride as a club; people who use pride in a negative rather than positive way. By this, I mean people who go farther than mere expressions of pride and instead use "pride" as a euphemism for bigotry or racism. Pride means you feel good about who you are; it is a positive expression. Pride does NOT mean feeling *superior* to others -- in the sense of propping yourself up by tearing others down (this is a negative expression, as it attempts to negate others).

Ticklish9s, was your professor actually telling you that he didn't think you ought to feel pride in being white? I have a hard time believing that. Is he white? Doesn't he have any pride in himself? Ask yourself, is he asking me to be ashamed of my race? Again, I find that very hard to believe. Such an attitude would be surprising coming from a "very heavily liberal" professor, as you describe him. More likely, he is conveying the sentiment, echoed by MistressMia, that EVERY day in America is "White Pride" day. It is the air we breath; we take it for granted. My own view is that setting aside a day for "White Pride" seems to be more of an "in your face" than a true expression of feeling good about our ethnicity.

In your first post, you say that you believe that "no race is superior or inferior to another". But in your second post, you say, "the solution to race relations is admit we aren't all equal in all areas, but rather superior in some and inferior in other's, build on our strengths, and get over this whole racial hypocrisy." I submit that both statements cannot be simultaneously true. Either all races are equal in your eyes or they are not. Perhaps it would help further your class discussion if you took a hard look at your beliefs and listed out, in writing, those areas in which you believe one race is superior or inferior to another. That would give you some great talking points with your professor. You might end up changing the professor's mind -- or your own.

 

[Strelnikov]

Some Advice For T9

You're a college student who apparently thinks for himself. There is no organization less open minded or less tolerant of dissent than a typical liberal arts faculty. These guys are mostly left-over hippies, the "New Left" of the 60's turned into campus orthodoxy. They have tenure, so they aren't going anywhere - any improvement will have to come after they die.

My advice to you is to major in a field where objective reality matters. Computer science and electrical engineering are good choices, because jobs in those fields pay well. You'll still have to take a few Humanities courses to make you a "well-rounded" individual. No matter - just keep your mouth shut until you dope out the prof's prejudices, then parrot them back to him. Don't bother trying to change anyone's mind, because you're dealing with matters of doctrine. It's as fruitless as arguing the merits of Islam with the Pope.

An aside to Mia: I didn't see any slurs in the original post, is that because I got here too late? Think on this: In "Blazing Saddles", Mel Brooks used every slur, insult and stereotype you ever heard of, against an amazing variety of racial/ethnic/religious groups. PC hadn't been invented 30 years ago, but he was roundly criticized anyway. His response was, "Maybe if we get these things out in the open and laugh at them, we can make them go away. It's worth a try, since nothing else has worked." But he lost that argument, so we still don't know.

Strelnikov

 

[MistressMia]

Strel,
Yes, you did get here too late. Since then, the original post has been edited. I agree to some extent on your analogy of "Blazing Saddles", however (to me) using terms in anger or derogatory vs in humor or to make a point are very different indeed.

"Blazing Saddles" is one of my favorite movies and would not want to change one word in it. I love Mel Brooks.😀

 

[qjakal]

Mongo...

Have I mentioned that I'm very "Mongo-like" MM? 🙂

 

[Ticklish9's]

Mutually exclusive? Hardly...

MN Tikl,
I stated that no race is superior or inferior to any other race - the implication being that, on the whole , no race is "better" or "worse". At the same time, members of certain races appear to excel in specific areas to a greater extent than members of other races in a statistically unlikely number. My earlier example was the dominence of African American's in basketball - it would be sheer idiocy to suggest that the vast majority of basketball athlete's being African American was coincidence and had no racial source. This is an example of one race being "superior" in one regard, yet it does not suggest that African American's are "superior" to any other race -just that they are inherently good at basketball. It's a distinction I perhaps failed to make properly earlier and for that I apologize.
As for the heavily liberal college professer (who is also a practicing therapist) she exhibited an apparent shame over being white herself, but the focal point of her argument was not to be ashamed to be white, merely to be ashamed of being proud of that fact.

Strel, you are certainly correct in your assessment of modern campus faculty, where liberalism is unshakingly conservative in it's tenacity, if not it's tenets. However, nearly all of my admitadly quite limited talents lie in areas likely to be judged on a purely subjective basis. Liberal Arts is the refuge of the creative mind, and the harder arts have ever been beyond my grasp. Aside from that, I'm a very stubborn Irishman (a racial slur, or just an acknowledgment of fact? Most definitly the latter, as anyone who knows me can verify🙂 ) and I intend to argue with this lady every time I disagree with her. To do less would be to deny blossoming young minds access to an opposing viewpoint.

 

[MistressMia]

Ticklish9's,

You have brought up a very interesting point and as you can see, if you want an intellectual debate or just an open discussion, you came to the right place. This thread is being handled very nicely by it's contributors. It's always a pleasure to be around strong minded individuals, whether in agreement or not. This is a small example of what I call "growth".

Q,
You like to punch horses and fart?...lol😀 😱 😀

 

[MN Tikl]

Ticklish9's --

I disagree with your statement:

"it would be sheer idiocy to suggest that the vast majority of basketball athlete's being African American was coincidence and had no racial source."

Do you believe that, because the vast majority of professional golfers are white, that being white gives you a racial advantage in hitting a golf ball? Or that, because most hockey players are white, whites are genetically better at skating and hitting a puck than blacks??

Your thinking with respect to blacks and basketball reflects a common logical fallacy: believing that correlation necessarily means causation. It doesn't. Let me suggest another explanation (get ready Strel, as this will no doubt set your teeth on edge): think about how much it costs for a set of golf clubs, golf lessons, a country club membership and a round of golf. Then think about how much it costs for skates, hockey gear, and ice time. Now think of how much it costs for a basket ball and the use of a public basketball court. At the risk of sounding too liberal, I think that a very good argument could be made that socio-economics plays a large role in the number of black children who take up the game of basketball versus those that take up golf and hockey.

Of course, if you believe that genetics alone explain the high proportion of blacks who excel in pro b-ball, I think that you need to show some evidence for this belief (other than pure league statistics, which can be equally explained by my argument above). Perhaps some biological or genetic studies. I'm not aware of any, but I'm ready to listen.

I would suggest that if you *prefer* to believe that it is explained solely by genetics, that says something about your worldview.

OK -- I'm ready for the backlash. Bring it on, Strel...

 

[Shem the Penman]

Skeptic magazine (www.skeptic.com), which is always a good, thought-provoking read, had numerous articles about the issue of race in sports in their first issue of 2000. Worth a look at for anyone with an interest in the subject.

I mention it because one of those articles pointed out an interesting fact: back in the '20s to '40s, basketball was dominated by Jews. No, I'm not kidding. And back then, people ALSO believed it was because Jews were "natural" basketball players. The article goes on to quote Paul Gallico, one of the top sportswriters of the '30s: "The reason, I suspect, that basketball appeals to the Hebrew with his Oriental background ... is that the game places a premium on an alert, scheming mind, flashy trickiness, artful dodging, and general smart aleckness." Other writers said it was because Jews' generally smaller size made them better balanced and quicker of foot. And I repeat, I am not making any of this up. (Nor, for that matter, am I apologizing for Gallico's beliefs; if you want to take issue with them, take it up with his ghost.)

So ... were they right and are Jews natural basketball players? Or could it, perhaps, been because back during that time, Jews were mostly a blue-collar, inner-city group, and basketball was the easiest sport for them to get into? After all, it requires little in the way of expensive gear (ball, hoop), and you don't really need a big field -- you can play any place you put up a hoop. The article goes on to quote a Jewish player of the time: "The Jews never got much into football or baseball. They were too crowded then. Every Jewish boy was playing basketball. Every phone pole had a peach basket on it. And every one of those Jewish kids dreamed of playing for [a pro team.]" Sound familiar at all?

 

[Haltickling]

Pride?

Ticklish 9's, I must confess I've got some logical problems with the expression 'White Pride'. In my opinion, a person can be proud only of things he/she has achieved him/herself. Some success at work or school, social acceptance by others, a good performance in sports or arts. Solving a problem, analytic or deductive prowess, or simply being a good lover.

IMO, the fact that we're proud of something other people did (your favorite football team, your brothers and sisters, your friends, your nation) is based on our desire to belong to a successful group. It gives you a good, safe feeling, and you define it as pride, although there's no logical justification for this definition. We behave illogical sometimes, I guess.

None of us had any choice which skin, which country, which economic circumstances we're born in. It's just a given fact, free of values. You're not white or black or whatever because you deserved it, or because you've achieved it. Nothing to be ashamed or proud of. I guess that's what your prof means to say.

 

[shark]

Some believe that blacks are superior physically,due to the practice of selective breeding practiced by slaveowners who saw them as not much more than livestock.Since segregation has only been banned for 30 some years,and we are still somewhat segregated anyway,the belief is that those genetics enabling physical prowess are still not diluted.Now,you can believe this if you choose to...........

 

[qjakal]

Mongo says..."Yup"

Who doesn't, MM? 😉

 

[Strelnikov]

MN, your point about the relative cost of a ball and hoop vs. golf clubs and club membership is well taken. But are you really from Minnesota? Hockey is a blue-collar game in its natural habitat. Decent ice skates cost about the same as upscale basketball shoes, the stick and puck are not very expensive, and a frozen pond is all the ice rink you need. At least that's how it was for us in Upstate NY when I was a kid.

Selective breeding of the former American slave population...nah. Time scale's too short. Turn up some evidence of the practice in Imperial Egypt and I'll be willing to listen.

That's not to say that different groups don't have different strengths and weaknesses - that's patently obvious. At this time, all I'm willing to say about it is that those differences may have a genetic basis, or maybe not, and I want to take another hard look before I decide. The question is a valid one though, and not something to be suppressed by a dogmatic statement that "we're all alike." Because, dammit, we AREN'T.

Strelnikov