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A little tidbit about guns and doctors

I think quoting information off a gun-owners home page (www.keepandbeararms.com) isn't quite good enough as evidence. No matter how good the journalism is, it's still biased enough to be inadmissable. Just my opinion. Oh yeah, by the way, how many of the pro-gun guys in this thread are christian and how many of the anti-guns are atheist? Just wondering...
 
Biggles I'm a Christian, but what does this with pro/anti-gun?
 
Yo Biggles: you haven't figured it out yet, have you?

Check those links on the corruption and illegality common in the Calif gun permit system, or the Million Mom March corruption scandal. Check the author's EMail address. Then check the EMail address on my account on this forum, I'm pretty sure it's available? Oh...wait, looks like it isn't. Oh well. I'll just tell you flat out:

You're *talking* to the journalist in question.
 
Kyle: like I said man, I was just wondering how many of the pro-shooting guys are christians. I would be interested to know the relationship between a relatively conservative religion and gun ownership. Not only that, but the relationship between traditionally liberal atheists and anti-gunners would be worth considering. Do conservative voters and thinkers support gun ownership more than other social groups, and why is that?


Jim: I never questioned the quality of the journalism or the journalist, I just made the point that we all have our own biases when we write. An article by Marauder about gun ownership would be quite different to one written by you.
Citing articles written by yourself is less convincing than an article written by a government body or an independent reviewer.


now I sit back and wait for the flames...🙁
 
No flaming here biggles,just a response.I am a Christian and gun ownership has nothing to do with the religion.The Catholic conference of bishops had,in the past,decried handguns,but a local church also has turkey shoots.The opinion of religious in this matter is of no consequence to your faith.
Historically,liberals have always supported gun control,as they have historically supported any methods of governance or domination by government.Whether it is crime,tort,or political correctness,liberals are interested in government mandate,and gun ownership is a direct threat to that control.
As far as government bodies making reports,flip a coin.While the CDC considers guns to be a social health problem,FBI statistics show that
violent crime has been declining for about 20 years.In recent reports,
the only violent crime increases were tied to gangs and drugs,as are most of the crimes in the US.If the ATF was so important,why don't they raid a drug gang headquarters instead of pissing around with gun owners?Food for thought.............
As for independent reviews,try Gary Kleck of the University of Florida and another report from the University of Chicago.Both fly in the face of gun control advocates' claims that guns are a problem.
If gun control worked to solve crime and social ills,then banning Pcs should also protect us from frauds,child pornography,and various forms of libel. The gun and the PC are just tools...it's the user who is at the heart of the matter.
 
Biggles: do yourself a favor, read the Oakland gun permit expose. I suggest that one because it's the shortest, and definately the funniest 😀. Note the extensive use of *actual* documents obtained under California's "Public Records Act" (state-level version of the better-known Fed FOIA. That's typical of my "style".

You can call me biased all you want, but I back my reporting with hard fact.

Grabbers back their opinions with "feelings".
 
One of my defining experiences took place in a Michigan courtroom, where I was killing time waiting for a civil case to start. Under state law, a judge had to approve issuing of a concealed carry permit. This judge denied a permit to a young woman who had escaped an abusive relationship, but was being stalked by her ex. "Get a restraining order," he said. "I have," she replied. "I've called the cops, and they won't do anything." In tears, she asked, "Do I have to let him kill me?"

It made a deep impression on me, but unfortunately not on the judge. That's why carry permit laws should have no provision for official discretion. If you apply for a permit, and are not disqualified by law, the law must give them no choice except to issue one.

Strelnikov
 
lyrics for marauder

Thought some people (*cough* marauder *cough* *cough*) might enjoy these lyrics. NoFX write some funny shit sometimes, but this is actually pretty good. Before Jim goes insane, it's not a call to arms against gun owners (how's that for an oxy-moron) it's just some lyrics that I heard and I thought were pretty cool.



NOFX
The Decline (1999)
The Decline

Where are all the stupid people from?
And how'd they get to be so dumb?
Bred on purple mountain range
Feed amber waves of grains
To lesser human beings, zero feelings

Blame it on
Human nature, mans destiny (mans destiny)
Blame it on the greediocracy (greediocracy)
Fear of God
The fear of change
The fear of truth

Add the Bill of Rights, subtract the wrongs
There's no answers
Memorize and sing star spangled songs
When the questions
Aren't ever asked
Is anybody learning from the past?
We're living in united stagnation

Father, what have I done?
I took that 22
A gift to me from you
To bed with me each night
Kept it clean
Polished it well
Cherished every cartridge, every shell

Down, by the creek, under brush, under dirt
There's a carcass of my second kill
Down, by the park, under stone, under pine
There's a carcass of my brother William
Brother where, have you gone to?
I swear, I never thought I could
I see so many times
They told me to shoot straight
Don't pull the trigger, squeeze
That will insure a kill
A kill is what you want
A kill is why we breed

The Christians love their guns
The church and NRA
Pray for their salvations
Prey on the lower faiths

The story book's been read
And every line believed
Curriculum's been set
Logic is a threat
Reason searched and seized

Jerry spent some time in Michigan
A twenty year vacation, after all he had a dime
A dime is worth a lot more in Detroit
A dime in California, a twenty dollar fine

Jerry only stayed a couple months
It's hard to enjoy yourself while bleeding out the ass
Asphyxiation is simple and fast
It beats seventeen fun years of being someones bitch

Don't think (Stay)
Drink your wine (Home)
Watch the fire burn (Be)
His problems not mine (Safe)
Just be that model citizen

I wish I had a schilling
(For each senseless killing)
For every senseless killing
I'd buy a government
America's for sale
And you can get a good deal on it
(A good deal on it)
And make a healthy profit
Or maybe, tear it apart
Start with assumption
That a million people are smart
Smarter than one

Serotonin's gone
She gave up, drifted away
Sara fled, thought process gone
She left her answering machine on
The greeting left spoken sincere
Messages no one will ever hear

Ten thousand messages a day
A million more transmissions lay
Victims of the laissez faire
Ten thousand voices, a hundred guns
A hundred decibels turns to one
One bullet, one empty head
Now with Serotonin gone

The man who used to speak
Performs a cute routine
Feel a little patronized
Don't feel bad
They found a way inside your head
And you feel a bit misled
It's not that they don't care, yeah

The television's put a thought inside your head
Llike a Barry Manilow, jingle
I'd like, to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
A symphonic blank stare, yeah
It doesn't make you care (make you care)
Not designed to make you care (make you care)
They're betting you won't care (you won't...)

Place a wager on your greed
A wager on your pride
Why try to beat them when, a million others tried?

We are the *****
Intellectually spayed
We are the queer
Dysfunctionally raised

One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
One more pill to kill the pain
Living through conformity

One more prayer to keep me safe
One more prayer to keep us warm
One more prayer to keep us safe
There's gonna be a better place

Lost the battle, lost the war
Lost the things worth living for
Lost the will to win the fight
One more pill to kill the pain

Na na na na na
La na na na na
Na na na na na
Na na na na na

The going get tough, the tough get debt
Don't pay attention, pay the rent
Next of kins pay for your sins
A little faith should keep us safe

Save us
The human, existence
Is failing, resistance
Essential, the future
Written off, the odds are
Astronomically against us
Only moron and genius
Would fight a losing battle
Against the super ego
When giving in is so damn comforting

And so we go, on with our lives
We know the truth, but prefer lies
Lies are simple, simple is bliss
Why go against tradition when we can
Admit defeat, live in decline
Be the victim of our own design
The status quo, built on suspect
Why would anyone stick out their neck?

Fellow members
Club "We've Got Ours"
I'd like to introduce you to our host
He's got his, and I've got mine
Meet the decline

We are the queer
We are the *****
Ammunition
In the class war
We are worker
We love our queen
We sacrifice
We're soilent green

We are the queer
We are the *****
Ammunition
In the class war
 
feelings are important...

strtbottomjim said:
Grabbers back their opinions with "feelings".

hmmmm....I believe you support carrying a concealed weapon because it makes you "feel safer?"

Similarly, we both lock out doors at night because it makes us "feel safer." Sure we can all cite statistics and historical precedent, etc, but in the end, we do it because it gives us a sense of security....a "feeling"...regardless of whether it actually makes us safer. Locks only deter those criminals not prepared enough or not committed enough to circumvent them. The analogy can be extened to this debate, but I'll get back to the point.

I don't thik it's any less valid for "grabbers" (as you call them) to feel less safe by there being MORE gun-totting strangers on the streets. I'm sorry. I will not "feel safe" by ADDING guns to the streets. So here's what it comes down to. YOU "feeling safe" makes me "feel unsafe." Lock your door all you want. Take martial arts if you want. Install a security system/alarm wherever you want. Those things affect YOU and ONLY YOU. Bullets are FAR less selective.

Here is the basis of my personal "feelings:"

1) Accept that more guns on the streets (REGARDLESS of who has them) will result in more shooting.

2) Accept that all of those bullets will not hit their intended target(s). As hard as it may be to imagine, people who shoot guns sometimes MISS, and the bullets don't stop and decide not to hit anything or anyone else.

3) Accept that some fraction of those shootings will NOT be lawful and will NOT be just for legitimate "self defense." (regardless of peoples' pleas after the fact.) They may also not be used exlusively by the persons licensed to carry them. Let's just call all these potentialities "errors" for succinctness.

4) Accept that lives WILL be lost as a result of these "errors."

5) Accept (after all of this) that the greater the number of guns out there--held by law-abiding citizens--the greater the number of "errors" will be made.

Even POLICE make "errors", often, and they have plenty more training/experience/infrastructure built around their right to carry arms (and fire them) than the general public ever will.

You will never convince anyone who's not already a "gun-nut" to readily dismiss these possibilities. They fear being someone's "error." Sadly, I suspect nothing short of a real-life personal "error" would make a pro-gun lobbyist rethink their position, however. (But hey, as long as it's not you or anyone you know, who cares, right? 🙄 )

Aside:
You can't compare guns to doctors, hands, pocketknives, PCs, etc. They're weapons. They cannnot build, they cannot heal, they cannot create productivity or wealth. They're also not designed to "instill fear" (else you'd use a fake one and end the debate) or give their owners self-confidence. They are designed to injure and/or TAKE life. Only thing is, they don't care whose life gets taken, and no one can predict, stop, or undo the outcome that is so easily brought to bear.
 
In response to Frink, I offer the following:

1. I disagree. Most occasions where a gun is used defensively are "chase-offs" as described above. But in any case, more shooting isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are more of us than there are goblins. Even in a "wild west" scenario, eventually we would clear them all out.

2. I seldom miss. I'm always aware of what's behind my target, in case I do. If I can't get a clean shot, I won't take one. That's called responsible behavior, and it's the result of thought and training.

3. Not "errors", my friend. Call these things by their right name: criminal acts.

4. That's the case now. In many places, law abiding citizens are forbidden the means to shoot back and defend themselves, so the life of a goblin is comparatively risk free.

5. Even if true - and I don't concede the point - that's the cost of freedom. As Ben Franklin once said, those who give up freedom in exchange for security, will eventually have neither. I'm willing to take the chance.

Strelnikov
 
Whee, my first official fuck-up... This got kind of ugly. While I enjoy a spirited discussion, it appears that this issue will not be resolved within the confines of the Forum. Thus, I'll retire from the controversy. While I could look for (and find) proof for my point, doing so would only fuel the fires, and I don't want that. For the sake of peace, I declare myself beaten. I shouldn't have started this. If anyone is interested to discuss the matter of gun-control further with someone who despises privately held handguns, I'm always available at [email protected].

Sorry for stirring the pot, folks.
 
I would also like to point out some things about Frink's post.First of all,locking my doors at night and carrying a gun do not make me FEEL safer...they MAKE me safer.
As far as points 1,2,4,and5, that was the same bull the antigun crowd and the media passed around when Florida first eased their carry restrictions several years ago.I don't see any slew of accidental shooting victims crowding hospitals and morgues.A number of the legislators who didn't support that law have already made a turnaround and admitted that their nonsupport was a mistake.
As far as point 3.....statistically extremely rare wherever permits are issued.
In case you haven't noticed,the criminal element has their own weapon pipeline,in some cases even aided by the government you would have "protecting" us.
The supreme Court has also ruled that nobody has a right to police protection...if they get there,fine.
And as far as the police and their training/infrastructure/experience,
it's not always what it's cracked up to be.Alot of the shortcomings are not the fault of the officers,but some are.
Lastly,how you "feel" is not my problem and won't be.I have no plans concerning your thought process.
 
A question

This question goes out to the people who are against private citazens owning firearms
How would you go about disarming the people? Would you use force if the people didn't give up the firearms immediattly?
Maybe call in the Military or the U.N. perhaps?
I just wonder if the anti-gunners would go door to door and try to collect them
Personally I feel that the anti-gunners should try that Let's see if they really do belive in thier cause then
If I as a law abiding citizan can own a legal firearm then the police shouldn't be allowed to carry guns at all
What would prevent them from forcing thier beliefs upon anyone?
Do unto others.......Then split!
 
shark, Strel...

No disrespect intended but your last posts both reaffirm and/or miss the point of my last post entirely.

This discussion is interesting, but I can see it borders on being a religious debate...which can't really be "won." For example, I spent some time viewing the statistics cited by both sides today. All worthless propaganda--on BOTH sides. They cite numbers and blatantly confuse correlation with causality. Further, they provide waaay too little information on which to formulate a sound opinion. I thought it was hilarious. If those are what's being used to "prove" either point, this debate will go on forever. lol

The one thing I did specifically look for was "accidental deaths" and other incidents resulting from concealed carry firearms. I found them. They're there. You just have to care enough to look. The Indiana case comes to mind. After 2 (or three...I can't recall) accidental shootings occured in a short span of time, they (the governor?) decided to "modify" their laws...and make them slightly more restrictive. (I don't have the link handy, but a search should turn it up for you. Steer clear of the propaganda sites, though! LOL) The general public--especially those directly affected--won't tolerate the government shrugging their shoulders at things like that....even if some people can. This is not collateral damage, it's innocent people being hurt. That's where everyones feelings of safety become a genuine concern.

I'm signing off of this debate, though, guys. It's been fun. 😀 but not NEARLY as fun as talking tickling....not even close! LOL For the record, though, I wished I'd carried a long time ago for personal protection. I guess my views have changed somewhat over time, because now I'm glad I didn't. Ah well, to each their own.

See ya in another thread! 😎
 
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