A Masters Creed (not for all - BDSM related - if offended, do not open)

[drew70]

Yes, I agree there is a lot of talk and pretense of respect, love, cherishing, etc. I'm of the opinion that actions speak louder than words, and the action of a man beating a woman for his own pleasure speaks of something completely different than respect and adoration. But of course, as always, it is merely an opinion, an alternative viewpoint anybody can freely disregard. 🙂

 

[isabeau]

Yes, I agree there is a lot of talk and pretense of respect, love, cherishing, etc. I'm of the opinion that actions speak louder than words, and the action of a man beating a woman for his own pleasure speaks of something completely different than respect and adoration. But of course, as always, it is merely an opinion, an alternative viewpoint anybody can freely disregard. 🙂

but drewwwwwwwwwww some females enjoy being beaten. same as those who enjoy being tickled. dont you see? everyone has different tastes.. and how do you know they dont respect and adore their respective submissive? feel that probably their relationship is a much stronger one than vanilla relationships, due to the amount of trust involved

isabeau

 

[theshire]

I'm not going to reveal which side I'm on, but I will say that I really have a lot of respect for Drew. Despite some pretty fierce detractors he's stuck to his guns, to his principles, all this time and has always been willing to explain his views and answer queries in a non-aggressive way. I think some of the 'offense' and 'anger' pouring out of those his views conflict with is pretty pathetic and in some cases sickening.

OK, maybe that does reveal which side I'm on. Damn...

 

[isabeau]

if you are talking about me theshire... drew and i happen to be very good friends. and yes he considers me intelligent as well

isabeau

 

[TicklishLurker]

What about women who do the beating? And the men who enjoy getting beaten? Does your opinion of the situation change then?

And the pleasure can mean a lot of things. Including the orgasms. Making sure the sub cums first, for instance. Unlike many vanila relationships where the woman does not get to orgasm at all.

BDSM couples are, as a rule, way better comunitcators then vanila couples as well. And not just about sex. They talk about feelings, politics, religion, with a huge amount of respect for each others opinions and beliefs. Unlike many vanila couples I've seen who don't talk at all, especially about their problems. My parents, as vanila as can be, went for 48 hours without speaking to each other due to a fight and mom would only talk to dad via me. It was sheer and utter Hell. I've never seen a BDSM couple do this.

 

[drew70]

but drewwwwwwwwwww some females enjoy being beaten. same as those who enjoy being tickled. dont you see? everyone has different tastes.. and how do you know they dont respect and adore their respective submissive? feel that probably their relationship is a much stronger one than vanilla relationships, due to the amount of trust involved

isabeau

Izzy, first off, there is a vast difference between someone who enjoys being tickled and somebody who enjoys being beaten. One can experience the depths of tickle torture with no physical trauma (injury)whatsoever. The same can't be said of pain. To achieve the more intense levels of it requires external trauma, such a burn, cut, pinch, or bludgeon. A craving for tickling is natural and understandable. A craving for injury is dangerous and self-destructive.

How do I know they don't respect and adore their respective submissives? I don't claim to know they don't, any more than you could claim you know they do. What I'm saying is that a person's actions say a lot more about them than anything they could say about themselves. If a guy says he respects his wife, but goes sleeping with other women, I would tend to think he doesn't have a lot of respect for her....based on his actions. In the same way, a guy who beats a woman for his own pleasure, by that very act, in my opinion demonstrates a profound lack of respect, regardless of whether or not she approves of the abuse.

As for trust, all I can say is that I trust my significant other implicitly, and I never needed to be injured, traumatized, or humiliated to achieve it. The trust that develops from an abusive relationship is one-way. Trust that comes from a relationship based on love, respect and the understanding that neither is superior to the other, that is a two-way trust, and is much stronger than the single-threaded "trust" in an abusive relationship.

 

[isabeau]

actually drew, one can be beaten and have no physical marks on their body. its all in how the Dom goes about it...... i have read of how a true Dom can inflict pain but leave no actual marks on the body. the skin may turn red but fades after a bit. and whats to say a rough tickling wouldnt bruise the skin or leave some sort of mark? anyway we wont agree on this.... i happen to find the lifestyle very intriguing. it doesnt mean i want to be beaten twenty four seven... and again i say a true Dom and true submissive understand what each other needs and craves. its all consensual. it is consensual on both sides of the fence. if a submissive decides she wants to quit, she is allowed. if she chooses to leave that relationship she is allowed to.

isabeau

 

[TicklishSinner]

I find the whole BDSM scene very intriguing and would loev to learn more about it..and i have to agree with isabeau rough tickling can leave bruises..but I dont want to get involved with this arguement

 

[kis123]

What about women who do the beating? And the men who enjoy getting beaten? Does your opinion of the situation change then?

And the pleasure can mean a lot of things. Including the orgasms. Making sure the sub cums first, for instance. Unlike many vanila relationships where the woman does not get to orgasm at all.

BDSM couples are, as a rule, way better comunitcators then vanila couples as well. And not just about sex. They talk about feelings, politics, religion, with a huge amount of respect for each others opinions and beliefs. Unlike many vanila couples I've seen who don't talk at all, especially about their problems. My parents, as vanila as can be, went for 48 hours without speaking to each other due to a fight and mom would only talk to dad via me. It was sheer and utter Hell. I've never seen a BDSM couple do this.

I'm curious to hear the answer to this one......

 

[drew70]

What about women who do the beating? And the men who enjoy getting beaten? Does your opinion of the situation change then?

It might. I don't know. I haven't seen enough of it to form one.

And the pleasure can mean a lot of things. Including the orgasms. Making sure the sub cums first, for instance. Unlike many vanila relationships where the woman does not get to orgasm at all.

I would venture to say that this phenomenon occurs just as often in butter pecan, pistaccio, and neopolitan relationships as in vanilla.

BDSM couples are, as a rule, way better comunitcators then vanila couples as well. And not just about sex. They talk about feelings, politics, religion, with a huge amount of respect for each others opinions and beliefs. Unlike many vanila couples I've seen who don't talk at all, especially about their problems. My parents, as vanila as can be, went for 48 hours without speaking to each other due to a fight and mom would only talk to dad via me. It was sheer and utter Hell. I've never seen a BDSM couple do this.

It sucks you had to go through that, but I think it's unfair and unrealistic to blame the lack of communication on their...vanillality? I can just as truthfully say I've never seen BDSM couples talk about feelings, politics, religion with any amount of respect for each other's opinions, but I have seen it many times with vanilla couples.

actually drew, one can be beaten and have no physical marks on their body. its all in how the Dom goes about it...... i have read of how a true Dom can inflict pain but leave no actual marks on the body.

I notice you keep using the phrase "true dom." Can you tell me what qualifies a dom as "true" as opposed to...."false"? Yes, it's true that some amounts of pain can be administered without leaving evidence. But if you think BDSM is limited to such minimalism, you'd better do some more reading. Look under the heading of "Edgeplay."

the skin may turn red but fades after a bit. and whats to say a rough tickling wouldnt bruise the skin or leave some sort of mark? anyway we wont agree on this.... i happen to find the lifestyle very intriguing. it doesnt mean i want to be beaten twenty four seven... and again i say a true Dom and true submissive understand what each other needs and craves. its all consensual. it is consensual on both sides of the fence. if a submissive decides she wants to quit, she is allowed. if she chooses to leave that relationship she is allowed to.

A rough tickling might accidently bruise the skin, but your talking about an unplanned side effect. The bruising was not necessary to achieve the tickled sensation, and I would venture to say was probably counterproductive to the goal of tickle torment. As for being consensual, it's already been demonstrated that consent does not excuse abusive behavior. Remember the guy in Germany who ate his friends penis and killed him. There was court evidence that proved it was consensual. Just because two people consent to an activity doesn't guarantee that activity is right or good.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

Izzy, first off, there is a vast difference between someone who enjoys being tickled and somebody who enjoys being beaten. One can experience the depths of tickle torture with no physical trauma (injury)whatsoever.

I see, so as long as YOU feel the lee isn't being harmed then it must be true. Hmm, tickle torture...tickle torture...torture....torture. I guess that means anyone who enjoys "torture" of any kind is pretty sick because Torture is a deviant. Dress it up anyway you want too, torture is torture. Just because a person is laughing instead of shouting is a pretty good denial to it. So I guess the next time a master should put laughing gas in the chamber that way he can convince himself that he REALLY isnt hurting her. Whatever helps you sleep at night, drew. Do you like being tickle tortured? IF so what's wrong with YOU???? Better yet , tell all the lees that. Im sure you'll be real popular.

The same can't be said of pain. To achieve the more intense levels of it requires external trauma, such a burn, cut, pinch, or bludgeon. A craving for tickling is natural and understandable. A craving for injury is dangerous and self-destructive.

Im sure all your friends on the wrestling, boxing, martial arts and football teams would agree. They are certainly willing to harm themselves and others to get a piece of plastic that they can mount on their shelves..wow.

How do I know they don't respect and adore their respective submissives? I don't claim to know they don't, any more than you could claim you know they do.

And yet you seem too claim it by lumping them all into one big giant distorded ball. True, some may be in it for their own selfish needs, but hell I've seen that around here too. If you don't believe me..ask any of the women on the forum how many offers theyve gotten without even bothering to get to know them. So don't go lumping everyone into one group unless you can tell me that you have met every single person that exists on this earth and have examined them mentally and emotionally.

What I'm saying is that a person's actions say a lot more about them than anything they could say about themselves. If a guy says he respects his wife, but goes sleeping with other women, I would tend to think he doesn't have a lot of respect for her....based on his actions. In the same way, a guy who beats a woman for his own pleasure, by that very act, in my opinion demonstrates a profound lack of respect, regardless of whether or not she approves of the abuse.

What would you say to a guy that verbally abuses a person??? Calls them names. Like sicko, psycho, stupid, ...seems to me like your the one that likes to hurt people. At least some of the men and woman agree with the session. Yours is deliberate and unwanted and yet you still seem to enjoy it. Who's the mean one now, I wonder?

As for trust, all I can say is that I trust my significant other implicitly, and I never needed to be injured, traumatized, or humiliated to achieve it. The trust that develops from an abusive relationship is one-way. Trust that comes from a relationship based on love, respect and the understanding that neither is superior to the other, that is a two-way trust, and is much stronger than the single-threaded "trust" in an abusive relationship.

There's that word again.."abusive." I did a check into the synonyms of it..wanna hear it? Rude, Insulting, Foul , Offensive, Obnoxious, Cordial, Violent and Cruel. Five of them you seem to be displaying. So I guess that makes you an abuser too. Maybe not physical but verbally. So I guess that makes you one of us..maybe in your next session you can verbally abuse the submissive instead. Emotional scars heal faster than physical scars...oh no wait..Im wrong, its emotional scars that take longer to heal..yeah right thats it. I would say you are on your way to become a great abuser...congradulations. Welcome to the club! 🙂 <--see I'm smiling too

 

[drew70]

I see, so as long as YOU feel the lee isn't being harmed then it must be true. Hmm, tickle torture...tickle torture...torture....torture. I guess that means anyone who enjoys "torture" of any kind is pretty sick because Torture is a deviant. Dress it up anyway you want too, torture is torture. Just because a person is laughing instead of shouting is a pretty good denial to it. So I guess the next time a master should put laughing gas in the chamber that way he can convince himself that he REALLY isnt hurting her. Whatever helps you sleep at night, drew. Do you like being tickle tortured? IF so what's wrong with YOU???? Better yet , tell all the lees that. Im sure you'll be real popular.

Hey man, if you want to lump any and all torture into an all-inclusive one-size-fits-all catagory, that's your business. I've already established how and why tickling is different from pain. I've been pretty specific about what certain practices of BDSM I find questionable. Yes, I do like being tickled, but according to you, any torture should suffice because "dress it up anyway you want to, torture is torture." Sorry pal. Tickling and pain are as different as night and day. I dig tickling. I don't dig pain. And if being popular was important to me, I'd do things like have a sig pic that looks 20 times better than my real appearance, and I'd go out of my way to appear politically correct, especially to the women.

Im sure all your friends on the wrestling, boxing, martial arts and football teams would agree. They are certainly willing to harm themselves and others to get a piece of plastic that they can mount on their shelves..wow.

Wow is right. As in, "Wow, that has absolutely jack to do with BDSM." Sports is about competition. The pain and injuries aren't the objective, but rather incidental. Or do you imagine that football players think to themselves "hey, now that I'm on a real football team, I can cash in on some mega pain here. Maybe the running back will snap my arm in two! yeah!" 🙄 With BDSM, there is no competition, the pain and injuries are the objective.

And yet you seem too claim it by lumping them all into one big giant distorded ball. True, some may be in it for their own selfish needs, but hell I've seen that around here too. If you don't believe me..ask any of the women on the forum how many offers theyve gotten without even bothering to get to know them. So don't go lumping everyone into one group unless you can tell me that you have met every single person that exists on this earth and have examined them mentally and emotionally.

I'm not lumping anybody into any ball, distorded or otherwise. I'm saying that everybody is equal, nobody has any business being anybody's master, and a man inflicting pain on a woman for his own pleasure is wrong wrong wrong. Twist my words any way you like, it all comes down to these simple principles.

What would you say to a guy that verbally abuses a person??? Calls them names. Like sicko, psycho, stupid,

Sticks and stones....(you know the rest)

...seems to me like your the one that likes to hurt people. At least some of the men and woman agree with the session. Yours is deliberate and unwanted and yet you still seem to enjoy it. Who's the mean one now, I wonder?

You've lost me, totally and completely. I don't like hurting people. I don't know to what "session" you're referring. And you don't say what it is of mine that is deliberate and unwanted that I still seem to enjoy. I confess, I'm not real intuitive. One of my many failings, I'm afraid. You're just going to have to speak a little more plainly if I'm to respond.

There's that word again.."abusive." I did a check into the synonyms of it..wanna hear it? Rude, Insulting, Foul , Offensive, Obnoxious, Cordial, Violent and Cruel.

Well, lets see. A man deliberating causing a woman pain to get his rocks off?...I'd say all your synonyms apply except "Cordial". Are you sure "cordial" is a synonym for "abusive"? Sounds more antonymous than synonymous to me, but then again I'm not a language major.

Five of them you seem to be displaying.

I guess I can only hope one of those five is "cordial"

So I guess that makes you an abuser too. Maybe not physical but verbally. So I guess that makes you one of us..

I still don't see how voicing alternative views questioning the benevolence and character of men who take delight in harming women makes me an abuser. Seems to me you are just name calling.

maybe in your next session you can verbally abuse the submissive instead.

LOL. In the sessions in which I'm involved, I'm the submissive. I'm too busy laughing and struggling to think of verbally abusing anybody.

 

[Redmage]

What about women who do the beating? And the men who enjoy getting beaten? Does your opinion of the situation change then?

I admit, as soon as I saw the title of this thread I wondered how Drew would react if someone just did a find/replace and substituted "Mistress" for "Master" throughout. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that would make a big difference.

The creed itself is a good set of ideas though. I see people who are perfectly aware of how widespread these attitudes are in the kink community, yet still claim that those of us who practice SM don't really believe them. It's interesting to watch this at work, in the way that any statement of religious faith is interesting.

 

[TicklishLurker]

You know what? I give up - Drew, in many ways I like you, I still enjoy the toons I have you drew a long time ago. But obviously you're too close minded about this subject.

All I know is a True Dom does NOT do the things you talk about if the submissive does not want him to. You're describing a wannabe. The kind of person you'd find as the bad on on Law & Order: SVU.

I enjoy having a good spanking, even getting struck with a nice rope flogger. When done properly it doesn't hurt but actually feels like a deep tissue massage. It's very relaxing. And if you don't like that, tough.

I grew up in a very sexually repressed household. Mom admitted to me she's never had an orgasm - ever - and even said "Only men and *****s enjoy sex" and "a good woman never orgasms." I've known more vanila couples who say the same thing all the time - "We never talk. We never comunicate." Never saw that problem with BDSM couples. Ever.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

 

[BellaRisa]

Uh...yeah.

A few things:

First, TK-philes need to get over the false theory of how tickling and pain are so different. I love both equally, because they're remarkably similar.

They're most definitely different for *you* if you only enjoy one or the other, and that's fine. But for many of us they're just different types of the same delicious apples. Why? Because bottom line they're both extremely intense, nearly unbearable sensations that send us to incredible levels of joy and ecstacy if done correctly. Of course there are differences but that's the core truth and we all know it; if you want to go on and on about how different they are you go right ahead, but as a true fetishist of both I'm here to tell you that they are nowhere near as different as the anti-pain folks need to believe. There simply is no vast difference between those who enjoy tickling and those who enjoy a beating, except in how they achieve their Nirvana And YES, a beating can result in bruises. The aftermath is not enough to make the two activities totally different, anymore than tennis and football are different because one involves more aggressive contact. Both are sports; the fact that one is more likely to leave bruises doesn't change that.

And speaking of sports, BDSM and sports *are* similar. Sports is not just about competition, and participants would be insulted by the insinuation. And yes I know this for a fact, many of my BDSM friends are also kickboxers and Tae Kwon Do and hockey competitors. Plus I'm collared to an ex-football player who now plays A-level volleyball . Competiton is certainly a big part, but that's not enough to get those guys on that field running into each other on purpose. No, sports is also about loving the game itself, and the AMAZING adrenaline rush players get from what they do. It's about being constantly amazed by your own stamina, how much you can take and still keep going, what you can do this time that you couldn't do before...gee, sounds a lot like a good BDSM session to me 😎 Seriously, BDSM is **NOT** about pain and injury. Frankly, the only people who say that are those who aren't actually involved. I can understand that, but it's like talking about giving birth when you never have-you just don't know what you're talking about. BDSM is about many things. Pleasure. What your body can do. Endurance. How strong you are and what you can accomplish both physically and mentally in a scene...and lord knows it's about that adrenaline . It's about going places in your mind that you can't explain but it feels wonderful.

I think that's the aspect that nay-sayers keep overlooking. BDSMmer's do what we do because of how high it lifts us, that soaring flying feeling...there's nothing like it, the 'lees here know what I'm talking about (and if you don't I hope you find the right 'ler soon). And just as 'lees achieve those lovely feelings through tickling, some of us can also feel those incredible surges from a good spanking or flogging. It just ain't that different fellas. As a weight-lifter I know alllll about that powerful 'zone' athletes get into, and no one who actually participates in both ever has trouble understanding that.

And for the eleventeenth time, it's not abuse if the bottom is willing and enjoys it as much as the Top. For the life of me I can't understand why grown people have trouble with this concept. And you know what? We're leaving our pain play just as happy and healthy and fulfilled as you are when you leave your tickling play; to insinuate that our play is abuse or that the affection and caring our Tops show for us is merely pretense is insulting and hypocritical and shameful. Someone who truly cares only for his pleasure? I want nothing to do with. But someone who wants to give me what I want, who wants to enter that dance and meet me in the middle and take me a far as I can go...wow. That's the kind of Top we discuss here, the kind of Top like Redmage and my own Top. They don't 'get off' (ick) on hurting us; it's absolutely no fun for them at all if the bottom isn't loving the play. What they enjoy is watching us as we strive to endure what we asked them to do, and helping us through it, and being the one to guide us as we dance with those demons. We trust them to get us to the other side. And we absolutely love them for it. I don't expect non-BDSMmer's to understand it, but I do expect them to be respectful and willing to learn. And that's what I'm not seeing here. These tend to be the same folks who talk about the 'crazies' who bungee jump, cliff dive, etc. I totally understand playing it safe. But some of us live life a bit louder than that, and it doesn't make us incompetent or indicate that we have issues. it just means we live differently, some would say more vibrantly. And good for us

Bella, bungee jumping since 1990

 

[Strider]

Many individuals would find enjoying being tickled about as bizarre as enjoying having pain inflicted on yourself. It's really no more of a leap from tickling to pain than it is from say, missionary only, to using different positions.

 

[Ignatz]

I have avoided this thread up until now because of the clear warning in the title. I came to it this morning out of curiosity because I suspected it was related to the one defending Redmage.

I'll say a couple of things, then get out, for good. I agree with Drew on virtually every point. Beating anyone, willing or not, is deplorable. But Bella and some of the others are perfectly correct: the practice of intense tickle torture is no different from inflicting pain. To some victims, it is worse. (I have occasionally encountered women who wanted me to hurt them, badly. Since I could not bring myself to do that, I would try to pacify them with tickling, but they went ballistic and would not abide it.)
To say that tickling is less abusive because it causes no physical harm is like defending verbal abuse on the same grounds.

This discussion has turned my eyes inward and I am pretty ashamed of what I see. I do not practice any of the torturous fantasies depicted on this site, but if I'm going to talk the talk about goodness, chivalry and the Golden Rule, I shouldn't be here at all.

 

[Strider]

I may regret it but I'm wading into this further.

There is nothing at all deplorable about inflicting pain on someone if that individual enjoys, desires, and is sexually gratified by having pain inflicted on them. Just because you may not understand it doesn't mean that lifestyle players, or those like myself who can flirt with and see the attraction in being a lifestyle player are somehow deviants, or freaks, or acting out repressed sociopathic urges, or what have you. If we use the idea of enjoying inflicting/receiving torture as qualifying one as a freak, then everyone on this board are freaks, and we grant that, then where the hell do we stop? When individuals bring toys into sex? When they divert from missionary only? When they engage in sex for anything other than procreation? It gets ridiculous.

Everyone I know who is into BDSM is completely respectful of those who aren't, and would never attempt to get them to do anything they didn't want to do. I can say from experience that it is not enjoyment of inflicting pain per se, it's the relationship you develop with your sub as you find each other's rythyms and they offer control up to you. I've only played seriously with one other person, because she was the only person I've met who was on the same level as me and willing to go the places I wanted to go. And I would never, in a million fucking years, derive enjoyment from(or consider, for that matter) inflicting pain on someone I knew didn't want it.

 

[Ticklerguy4u]

Hey man, if you want to lump any and all torture into an all-inclusive one-size-fits-all catagory, that's your business. I've already established how and why tickling is different from pain. I've been pretty specific about what certain practices of BDSM I find questionable. Yes, I do like being tickled, but according to you, any torture should suffice because "dress it up anyway you want to, torture is torture." Sorry pal. Tickling and pain are as different as night and day. I dig tickling. I don't dig pain.

Again you seem to be missing something. It isn't all about the pain..its about the submission. Just like submitting to tickling..submitting to pain is not any different to the women. I think the obvious answer is you can't take the pain so you hate it but not all women are as easily scared of it like you are.

Wow is right. As in, "Wow, that has absolutely jack to do with BDSM." Sports is about competition. The pain and injuries aren't the objective, but rather incidental. Or do you imagine that football players think to themselves "hey, now that I'm on a real football team, I can cash in on some mega pain here. Maybe the running back will snap my arm in two! yeah!" 🙄 With BDSM, there is no competition, the pain and injuries are the objective.

What about boxing, kick boxing, and wrestling. Explain those. And if you think cashing in on mega pain isnt in their agenta. you havent been around to many football players in your life have you?? Running into a person at full running speed doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out it will be harmful.

I'm not lumping anybody into any ball, distorded or otherwise. I'm saying that everybody is equal, nobody has any business being anybody's master, and a man inflicting pain on a woman for his own pleasure is wrong wrong wrong. Twist my words any way you like, it all comes down to these simple principles.

Okay...what if a woman does everything you want because she loves you..what do you call that? I'd say that pretty unequal or maybe you are going to say that "I do things back , because I love her" Well what if that woman wants to be spanked..would you do it? Or all of sudden would love turn into hate or disgust. You still cant get passed that the women like it.
And what principles would that be? Because I dont understand something..IT MUST BE WRONG.

Sticks and stones....(you know the rest)

You've lost me, totally and completely. I don't like hurting people. I don't know to what "session" you're referring. And you don't say what it is of mine that is deliberate and unwanted that I still seem to enjoy. I confess, I'm not real intuitive. One of my many failings, I'm afraid. You're just going to have to speak a little more plainly if I'm to respond.

That explains alot. You ARE hurting people. There are men and women here..some which are your friends on TMF that are into the "pain" session besides tickling. By you calling the guys names that they give their submission too. You also insult them. Sort of like calling their best friend a retard or something like that. 1.These men, me included, never give any women more pain then they can take. Thats what a safeword is for 2. Outside this lifestyle I am a very nice guy ( i am not giving myself an ego boost either) ask anyone that knows me and I am not talking about in here..im talking about co-workers, friends, and aquaintences. though you seem to be gearing it toward the guys. And some of these gals are right..you seem to be thinking that its wrong to whip a woman but not a guy.

Well, lets see. A man deliberating causing a woman pain to get his rocks off?...I'd say all your synonyms apply except "Cordial". Are you sure "cordial" is a synonym for "abusive"? Sounds more antonymous than synonymous to me, but then again I'm not a language major.

Ah now I get it!! You dont have a problem with BDSM. You have a probelm with a man dominating a woman and a woman allowing this to happen through pain. YOu hate a woman being dominated by a man when it comes to giving her pain.

Well Im sorry to burst your bubble but their are women who love to be under a man submissively whether it be with pain or tickling. Or would you say the same thing if a woman was giving the pain to another woman.

I still don't see how voicing alternative views questioning the benevolence and character of men who take delight in harming women makes me an abuser. Seems to me you are just name calling.

Im referring to previous posts you have made.

LOL. In the sessions in which I'm involved, I'm the submissive. I'm too busy laughing and struggling to think of verbally abusing anybody.

But the woman that enjoys watching you be submissive , what about her? Dont give me this it isnt the same...I am a ler, I know the rush we get from watching a lee under our control and how sadistic we can get. So every ler has a bit of it in them.

 

[TicklishLurker]

What really bugs me about the comments made against BDSM - I was part of a REAL abusive relationship. The abuser was vanila when it came to sex. He saw BDSM in the same light as Drew and several others. Yet he saw nothing wrong with grabbing me by the upper arms and shaking me till my teeth rattled. He was an athiest and a Star Wars fan and would turn to me at random moments and say I was an idiot for believing in God and/or liking Star Trek. He did everything in his power to make me feel like shit. Then he started doing drugs and tried to hit me in the face. With the intention to harm.

But when in the BDSM situations - I was made to feel cared for, loved. I was treated extremely well even by people whom I wasn't playing with. When in just and oridinary conversation I was never told I was stupid. People listened to me like I actually mattered. I was told I was sexy and smart. Something I was never told before. People who didn't have anything to gain by complimenting me and not even knowing I was in the room were saying I was pretty. Something I still don't hear from the vanila crowd. When it came to the pain - I was always asked if I liked it. If I didn't like something, it was stopped and never done again. My limits were respected. My desires fullfilled.

The abuse I suffered at the hands of the jerk and the experience I had with BDSM are MILES apart. As different as a pig and an apple. The abuser made me feel like I was worthless. The Master made me feel like a Queen.

Anyone who thinks that the BDSM lifestyle is just abuse obviously hasn't been abused for real.

Edit: Something else I wanted to share - I knew I was into BDSM when I was still a virgin. The same way I know I'm bisexual even though I've never slept with a woman. When other girls were dreaming of romantic seductions with silk sheets and rose petals, I was dreaming of ropes and blindfolds. When they wanted long, slow kisses, I was masterbating to fantasies of spreader bars, paddles, feathers, and being "eaten out" while unable to close my legs. While they dreamed of cuddling afterwards, I dreamed of nipple clamps and hot wax. They wanted heady alcoholic drinks, I wanted vibrators and forced orgasms. I would sneek a look at sex books, skipping right over the regular sex and right to the bondage parts. Longingly reading the scanty information.

I still say it's not abuse because the abuse I suffered and the scenes I were in were incredibly different in situations, emotions, everything. When Kurt abused me, I was utterly terrified. When I was spanked by Redmage I never felt safer.

 

[BellaRisa]

This point seems to suggest that a master must exhibit intellectual superiority, that the slave can "learn from" him. How does a master determine for himself whether or not he's qualified to teach and give direction? Is there some kind of IQ test, or exam that certifies a master is competent to teach his slave and provide "direction?" I can't help but think of Bella, one of the wisest people on this forum, and how so very few are her intellectual equal, much less her superior. I have to wonder what a self-proclaimed master could teach her.

Because I'm in such a lovely mood this morning I'm going to take the above compliments at face value, and ignore any miniscule whiffs of underlying bile that I'm sure are products of my imagination

Now then. I've had a Sir (we don't use the term Master) for 7 yrs now. He's my love, my rock, my teacher...so many things. Did he take an IQ test? Um, no. But he most certainly took an exam. Mine. And trust me, it was lengthy and quite in-depth; I wouldn't give my power to any Joe Leather Doofus calling himself Master. I knew what I needed, and the kind of person I needed it from. What they needed to know about the mind and the body and the spirit. How to treat a lady by my standards of a true gentleman. Safety. And the list goes on. And after many, MANY talks and emails and dinners and such, we became who we are today. And if you know me at all then you know how happy he makes me.

(Ever notice that abused people are never happy, while BDSMmer's are always delighted and can't wait to play again? Hmmm... )

When we speak of guidance and teaching, we don't mean that a Master needs to be intellectually superior, or that we're inferior in any way. While he can be more experienced than his submissive, that's not what we mean here. What he needs is to have the intelligence, the knowledge and the compassion to be able to lead us and be the one in charge when we choose to relenquish our personal power. I repeat: when we choose. I allow this person to teach me, to help me learn, about myself. Understand: submission is an ongoing process, and often it can be difficult; you learn something new every time you engage in it as an activity and as a state of mind. *Especially* if you're the one in control in the other aspects of your life, as I am when running my businesses and my household. Being able to let all of that go, to give myself over to him, trusting him to give me the kind of evening I crave and take me to new parts of myself...there's nothing like it. And here's what detractors either don't know or choose to ignore: you can't achieve it without being equals. There must be mutual respect, mutual trust and understanding. Does he know more about spanking and tickling and other aspects of BDSM? Probably not. But he knows 'me', and he works hard to be an expert on his Bella so that he can help me get to the places that I want to go. And that's what we mean by learning from him, and allowing him to teach us.

Bella

 

[drew70]

Again you seem to be missing something. It isn't all about the pain..its about the submission. Just like submitting to tickling..submitting to pain is not any different to the women. I think the obvious answer is you can't take the pain so you hate it but not all women are as easily scared of it like you are.

Pain is the body's signal to the brain to say, "Hey, you're being injured here, so you'd better do something about it, pronto!" Being tickled is a gentle manipulation of nerve endings in a specific way, and has nothing to do with registering damage or injury. At first I couldn't understand why you can't see the difference, but now I think I do. And yes, I do go out of my way to avoid injury as most sane people do, but I think I take my lumps about as well as most people.

What about boxing, kick boxing, and wrestling. Explain those. And if you think cashing in on mega pain isnt in their agenta. you havent been around to many football players in your life have you?? Running into a person at full running speed doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out it will be harmful.

So you're saying that kick boxers, wrestlers, and football players have a vested interest in receiving pain. Obviously I disagree. Yes, they deal with pain, and they know it is coming. But again, the pain isn't the agenda. It's the endurance and the strengthening that is the agenda. They tolerate the pain as a side effect of their goal to become faster, stronger, and more resilient.

Okay...what if a woman does everything you want because she loves you..what do you call that?

I'd call that a woman who does everything I want because she loves me. What do YOU call it?

I'd say that pretty unequal or maybe you are going to say that "I do things back , because I love her" Well what if that woman wants to be spanked..would you do it? Or all of sudden would love turn into hate or disgust.

I strive for a relationship of mutual giving and receiving. My wife and I have done well in this regard over the years. If she wanted me to hurt her, I wouldn't do it. Why? Because I love, respect and cherish her too much.

You still cant get passed that the women like it.

I'm well past it, in fact. It's just not a factor in the equation from where I sit. Just because somebody likes something that's bad for them doesn't mean you should give it to them. Whether or not the woman likes it, the so-called master enjoys dishing it out. To me, only a sick twisted individual could derive pleasure from inflicting pain. It's about as close to textbook evil as it gets. That's my opinion. Of all the things I've read and re-read about the consensuality, and the mutual respect, the closeness, the so-called equality between master and slave (a truly laughable concept given their definitions)....None of it has served to change my feeling that it is wrong for a man to take pleasure in inflicting pain on a woman. It's an impressive smoke screen, but the underlying insidocity is still at the foundation.

And what principles would that be? Because I dont understand something..IT MUST BE WRONG.

Who said I don't understand it? It isn't rocket science, dude. I understand it just fine. I understand the reflexive need to assume a misunderstanding when somebody challenges what you do. There's no misunderstanding here. Mearly disapproval.

That explains alot. You ARE hurting people. There are men and women here..some which are your friends on TMF that are into the "pain" session besides tickling.

Yes, I don't doubt that there are. I don't expect them to change their lifestyle just because I give an opinion on it. I've certainly had less than favorable opinions expressed about me. It's a tough old world, Guy. But life goes on in spite of negative opinions.

By you calling the guys names that they give their submission too. You also insult them. Sort of like calling their best friend a retard or something like that.

I call it like I see it. Many have done so with me, and when they do, I try to take from it whatever value I can. If I find no value in the criticism, I discard it.

1.These men, me included, never give any women more pain then they can take. Thats what a safeword is for 2. Outside this lifestyle I am a very nice guy ( i am not giving myself an ego boost either) ask anyone that knows me and I am not talking about in here..im talking about co-workers, friends, and aquaintences. though you seem to be gearing it toward the guys. And some of these gals are right..you seem to be thinking that its wrong to whip a woman but not a guy.

Ahhh....So that's the reason for all this hostility toward me. You're one of the guys who enjoys inflicting pain on women, aren't you? Well, that does explain much. If you're looking for an apology, I think they're on sale at Sears. As far as women inflicting pain on the guys, I offer no comment. I haven't yet made up my mind.

Ah now I get it!! You dont have a problem with BDSM. You have a probelm with a man dominating a woman and a woman allowing this to happen through pain. YOu hate a woman being dominated by a man when it comes to giving her pain.

Bingo! I can see the lightbulb glowing over your head.

Well Im sorry to burst your bubble but their are women who love to be under a man submissively whether it be with pain or tickling. Or would you say the same thing if a woman was giving the pain to another woman.

My comments and feelings expressed only apply to men deriving pleasure from inflicting pain on women. As for women on women and women on men, the jury's still out on those.

But the woman that enjoys watching you be submissive , what about her? Dont give me this it isnt the same...I am a ler, I know the rush we get from watching a lee under our control and how sadistic we can get. So every ler has a bit of it in them.

I'm okay with lers. Remember that fundamental difference between pain and tickling that you seem so reluctant to grasp? It applys here. A woman who enjoys sadistically tickling someone is AOK in my book. A man who enjoys sadistically tickling someone? I'm fine with that. Because again, tickling is not destructive or injurious. In such cases I'm inclined to say whatever you like to do is your business.

 

[Redmage]

When we speak of guidance and teaching, we don't mean that a Master needs to be intellectually superior, or that we're inferior in any way. While he can be more experienced than his submissive, that's not what we mean here. What he needs is to have the intelligence, the knowledge and the compassion to be able to lead us and be the one in charge when we choose to relenquish our personal power. I repeat: when we choose. I allow this person to teach me, to help me learn, about myself.

Tops learn a lot from our bottoms too. There really ought to be something about that in the sub's creed.

Being able to let all of that go, to give myself over to him, trusting him to give me the kind of evening I crave and take me to new parts of myself...there's nothing like it. And here's what detractors either don't know or choose to ignore: you can't achieve it without being equals.

I have a little rant that I uncork every now and then when I run into someone who thinks that being submissive means being passive or lacking power.

Power is the ability to create and control change in ourselves and the world around us. BDSM is about power exchange, which if you look at it suggests that someone is giving power over to someone else in order to get something that they want in return. It also suggests that the person who is "giving up" power has to have it to begin with! So the idea of a "powerless submissive" is a contradiction in terms. You can't submit - that is, give over power - if you don't have it.

We need to avoid reading too much into that "exchange" idea though, because it's not really possible to "give up" power. We can't put our ability to create change into a sack and hand it to someone else. No matter who is directing our power, we still have to use it.

Submission then is not passive at all. It's not truly about giving up power - the submissive had power going in, and he or she keeps it all along the way. It's really about giving up control to someone else who accepts the responsibility to direct our combined power in ways that are good for both of us. Submission is about choosing to use personal power at the direction of someone else. It is about dedicating yourself to another person in exchange for that person's dedication of power and attention to you.

That's what's happening in a Master/slave relationship. That's what's happening in a flogging scene. And that's what's happening when we allow someone to tie us to a bed and tickle us to the limits of our endurance.

 

[BellaRisa]

Not Quite.

"Pain is the body's signal to the brain to say, "Hey, you're being injured here, so you'd better do something about it, pronto!" Being tickled is a gentle manipulation of nerve endings in a specific way, and has nothing to do with registering damage or injury."

Um, no. Actually:


From http://www.soundmedicine.iu.edu/archive/2001/mystery/tickle.html:

"Scientists have long believed that tickling evolved in early man as a defense mechanism to alert the body when foreign and potentially dangerous objects were touching it. That helps explain why we're ticklish in our most vulnerable spots, such as the belly, which covers many major organs, and the neck, which houses the vital jugular vein."

I've known this since I began researching our passion as a child. And frankly it's pretty obvious. That's why our bodies naturally spasm and twitch and automatically try like heck to squirm away. Just as we do from pain. And just as many of us actually squirm toward tickling, we move a little closer to the spanking hand or the riding crop as well.

Bottom line: Pain and tickling are rooted in the same lovely parts of our brains and bodies .

Bella

 

[stloldg]

With all the confusion we see about the true roles of each partner in a D/s relationship, particularly ones where pain, punishment, and humilation is often used in the course of a session, I thought it would be kind of cool to post this. I am certain it will not change the mind of anyone who is in set in their belief that either the Master or slave or both roles are crimes against humanity, but it's interesting none the less, and hopefully demonstrates that even the stiffest of blows is dealt with love and compassion.

Mimi

EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!