A Statement About America...

[Strelnikov]

Western Culture

I wasn't talking just about America. We have lots of Mexicans and, lately, Chinese moving here. You others, look around. Why do Turks move to Germany, Indians and Black Africans to the UK, North Africans to France? OPPORTUNITY. Western societies afford anyone who is willing to work, the best deal available anywhere, and incomparably more so for the children of the immigrants. They know it too. Nobody emigrates from the US to China, or from Germany to Turkey.

When I say "superior culture", I'm not talking about Shakespeare, although he's part of it. I'm talking about the Christian notion that individuals matter, and the political ideals of the American and French Revolutions that came out of it. As for Hal's contention that it's merely a matter of relative wealth - there's no "merely" about it. Our system made it possible to create the wealth, by rewarding individuals who were willing to work hard and take risks. The results speak for themselves. In any Western country, a newborn baby has a life expectancy in excess of 70 years. Westerners die young because they eat too much and don't get enough exercise. Even poor people are fat here. If you want proof of our superiority, here it is.

Racism? Bah! Colin Powell is a product of our culture. He's not unique. He would look pretty silly in Klan robes.

I'll save the problems of the post-colonial world for later. However, think about this: The colonial powers abolished and suppressed the slave trade in Africa and the Middle East. Now the Europeans are gone, and the slavers are back in business.

Strelnikov

 

[Ticklish9's]

Some thoughts...

Strel - I agree, Western Culture is superior. If I didn't think Western Culture was the best thing going, then quite simply I would move. That has happened time and again in the past, and will continue to happen in the future - when people don't think that the current culture is the best, they go out and find one that IS the best for them - or they make one.
MN - instead of worrying about who's God, or which God, or what God, or this God or that God or the other God, instead recognize the awe-inspiring simplicity of the phrase "In God We Trust". Whatever God you happen to believe in, to trust in, that's the one they were talking about! Granted, the majority of our legal foundation was Christian derived - but the themes are common to many world religions.

"Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal - these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace!" - The Boondock Saints

 

[qjakal]

Warning!!

I tried to warn them...you all saw my post right? But noooooooo...they had to rile Strel up! Now they will reap the whirlwind of his "sword of words". I don't feel bad for 'em....they had their chances!! Q

 

[Haltickling]

Invalid evaluation

Q, I'm not afraid of Strelnikov; it's a pleasure to debate with him, although our views on some points are rather different.

I don't doubt for a single moment the hard and skilled work efforts of people in the Western civilizations. What I was trying to aim at is the point that the chances are not equal. History and geography proves they were never equal. It makes a hell of a difference if you're living in a jungle, at the rim of a desert, or in a place that gets washed away by floods every other year. It makes a difference if you have to limit working hours to the early morning and late afternoon because of the extreme climate. And it makes a difference if you never had a chance to develop your own culture without colonial interference.

All those circumstances cause a different lifestyle which simply can't be compared to Western standards. Nobody can tell how these countries would have developed if they had been left alone, with only their usual regional conflicts to struggle with. But strong influences from Western civilizations gave them a new yardstick to measure with. Different standards entered their lives, standards which aren't compatible with their old values sometimes. Many cultures were considerably happier before the first European missionaries or the first Coke arrived in their countries.

History proves as well that there are always different generations of civilizations: Young, often aggressive and power-hungry cultures in some kind of puberty (e.g. the Mongolian hordes), mature civilizations with much experience and a wise balance of aggression and tolerance (like most of the western world nowadays), and old civilizations buried in their own ritual inflexibility (e.g. the old Chinese Empire). All generations are present at each given time, but of course their power and influence varies. Lots of civilizations died before our European cultures had even begun. Our own civilization is getting old and genetically decadent already, most Western nations show a steady decline of birth rates.

And just as there's no point in calling people of a certain age superior or inferior to a different age, there's no point in considering a certain culture superior of inferior. Of course, other civilizations are inferior to ours if we measure them by our own yardstick. That's how we defined this yardstick in the first place.

All I'm trying to say is: To argue about different values of civilizations is like to argue about the different values of apples and pears. I'm perfectly happy in the Western culture, but I've seen many happy people in other cultures as well. That's not a question of inferiority or superiority.

 

[qjakal]

I like pears....

Yes...but, do you really think that having floods prevents the rise of a technologically oriented society? Isn't it rather the fact that they are too stubborn or tradition bound to MOVE to a better location and try again that hinders the effort more, Hal? The Mississippi floods, as do many major waterways here in the USA. We had colonial interference like crazy from France, Britain, Spain & Mexico just to name a few, and yet persevered and overcame these problems eventually. Our climate varies from tropical to nearly polar, and yet we continued to spread and develop the resources of the country. I realize this is an oversimplification, but the general statements are correct.

The point I think we DO agree on however is that the success of a culture cannot be measured on the technology/weaponry and creature comforts of the society ONLY!

Was their some luck involved in the rise of the USA to superpower status in a relatively short period of time? Absolutely! But that being said, one must also admit that at times you make your own luck, and sometimes you have to refuse to lose. Credit where credit is due...we have been brave enough to take in immigrants at record levels throughout much of our history, and it has strengthened us tremendously. Events have shaped America, and we have been sorely tested at times throughout our history. There are MANY things I would change if I had that kind of power, most especially our treatment of native Americans and importation of slaves...but then we wouldn't be the America we are today, so perhaps those ugly stages of our past were necessary evils....

Overall, despite the pattern of criticism the USA receives, I feel we are still a vibrant, growing civilization with our best days still ahead of us....hopefully the next few generations can make progress on erasing the demons we still struggle with.....racism, poverty and violence for a few examples.

Guess I'm trying to say "Bet on us guys and gals! We are going to be working harder than ever to forge ourselves into a nation that is fit to be a leader in the world!" 😉

Speaking of which...am I being overly optomistic when I think that Germany is a bright upcoming star in the world of democratic countries? The things I read and the actions I see are indicative of a strongly moral people that seem ready to assume a greater role in world affairs? Yes? Q

 

[Strelnikov]

Actually, Q, what you're seeing in Germany is a revival of an old liberal tradition (in American terms, libertarian or Jeffersonian) that goes back at least to the time of the French Revolution.

I still don't buy Hal's idea about fortunate climates. Islam arose in the Arabian desert and spread from there to other garden spots like the Sahara, East Africa, Afghanistan, etc. Despite this, Islamic culture was the height of modernity and the wave of the future in the time of the Caliphate. Unfortunately for them, the Mongols beat their brains out 800 years ago, and they've never recovered. THey've been feeling sorry for themselves ever since.

As for living in a jungle: Look at Roman accounts of the Teutoberger Wald, that swallowed two Roman Legions without a trace. Extreme climate too - short growing season, cold winters, short winter days and short summer nights. Hal's ancestors (and some of mine) killed those Romans, and then cleared the forest, built homes and farms, founded towns and cities. It didn't happen overnight - more like 1200 years - but they managed. Poor bastards, they didn't have colonial exploiters to blame for their poverty and backwardness, so they just had to suck it up and get to work.

Strelnikov

 

[Strelnikov]

War of Cultures

The Observer (London) recently ran an opinion piece that said, in part, that while we can't bomb Radical Islamicists into accepting us, they can bomb us into regarding the current war as a War of Cultures. We Americans have been there before, on a smaller scale. Let's see where the historic lesson leads us...

**********

Some of you have read about Apaches and the way they routinely treated others that fell into their hands. If the account was written for a general audience, it was a whitewash. The truth is almost too horrible to believe. They were human wolves. No civilized society could have tolerated them in its vicinity.

The Mexican approach was straightforward. They did their best to exterminate the Apaches, and achieved some success.

Our approach was to enlist Apache scouts to hunt other Apaches, helping the US Army to round them up and put them on reservations. Once there, the Bureau of Indian Affairs gave them handouts to foster dependency, and thereby achieve control. It worked imperfectly, and many bands resisted. The last to surrender, under Geronimo, led the US Army a merry chase on both sides of the US-Mex border until 1886.

Once Geronimo was in custody, the Army disarmed and discharged the Apache Scouts. All Apaches were relocated from the reservations in the Southwest to internment camps in Florida. The children were taken away from their parents and sent to the Indian Boarding School at Carlisle Barracks, Pennsylvania. The school didn't turn the children into generic Americans - that was never the intent, and wouldn't have worked in the racial/social climate of the times anyway. What the school accomplished was to alienate the children from Apache culture. Meanwhile, the adults were left to loaf and squabble and drink themselves to death in the camps. This situation went on for 17 years, by which time the US Govt felt it was safe to release them back to the old reservations and BIA handouts.

**********

Would this technique work now? There never were many Apaches, but lots of Americans. The demographics might not work out for the West to suppress the Islamicists like this. Then again, it just might. I suspect that it would come down to the degree of motivation on both sides. So far, America has been attacked twice - 9/11 and with Anthrax. We've been restrained in our response. A few more attacks, and all bets are off.

Strelnikov

 

[qjakal]

Salmonella....

This is getting a bit wacky, even for mindless terrorists with no conscience or moral responsibility. Restraint is getting to be too expensive. The stories of the Taliban moving their weapons and supplies into civilian areas were to be expected, as we have made that move necessary for their survival and inevitable by our methods of hesitation. But this bio-warfare on people just doing their jobs and surviving on a daily basis calls for a reply of sufficient severity as to remove any lingering doubts in the minds of these morons regarding our ability to be cowered or intimidated by their pseudo serious crap. Further reports have the Taliban militia moving towards the Northern Alliance because they also know we won't bomb near their positions....time to rethink our stands on some issues. Q

 

[shark]

This acenario is why I would have,over past years,developed abilities that would enable responses so violent and horrible that nobody would think about messing with us,with the willingness to use them when necessary.This is not a brotherly love idea,but it is a necessary part of today's world.When you show weakness,someone will take advantage.When you leave no question as to the consequences of your actions,yhose "someones" will back off.
An example of this was during the Iranian revolt/hostage crisis.The students had also approached the Soviet embassy,but the Soviets did not have to deal with them.Why? Because the Soviets saw their embassy as sovereign territory(which it actually is)and acted appropriately.The guards set a machine gun on the roof,fired off a burst in the air,and then aimed into the crowd.Case closed.The crowd went elsewhere, like our embassy,where we did not take it seriously and had poorly armed guards.This was especially bad because that embassy had been taken over in the recent past,but our oh-so-kind president Carter wanted to be a nice guy.We all know the price that was paid during the hostage crisis for this blind,loving attitude.The only bright spot was the Canadians harboring US personnel and smuggling them out with Canadian papers.
It's an ugly truth that you have to be ready,willing,and able todemolish anyone and anything to be taken seriously,especially when you are a free country and there are those who hate you for it.

 

[dvnc]

The saddest part of your argument, brother, is the accuracy of it. Now isn't the time for geniality, unless we wish to weather years of a variety of plagues. It's just depressing that there exists, still, some group of nutcases willing to do this. They're getting those of their faith into trouble, while killing off innocent folk.

We'll eventually grow to anger. Then, likely, we'll do things that will horrify even us. That's such a huge price to pay for safety, though. Likely, it'll be necessary, but it's tragic, and will scar all sides in the process.

dvnc

 

[asutickler]

*We'll eventually grow to anger. Then, likely, we'll do things that will horrify even us.*


Yup. According to U.S. tactical doctrine, biological weapons are classified as "weapons of mass destruction." Use of one weapon of mass destruction by a foriegn power is justification for the U.S. to retaliate in kind. With nuclear weapons.

We need to wipe out these crazy bastards NOW with conventional means, before they drive us to kill off their entire country. Same deal with Iraq. Leaving Saddam alone is akin to asking for another tragedy, and what would our reaction be then?

For that matter, we need to kill off ALL of the evil regimes who run "rogue" nations (i.e. Iran, the Sudan, Syria, etc.) before they drive us to kill their innocent civilians in mass quantity. I got to hear about civilian conditions in Iran first-hand from 2 Iranian students in a class of mine... and it is absolutely sickening. I don't care what their government says. If you threw the Ayatollah (sp?) into a crowd (not even an angry crowd) of Iranian civilians, he wouldn't last 10 seconds. I'm sure things are similar in other such nations...

Hmmm, I think I've started rambling, so I'll just shut up now.


ASUTickler

 

[qjakal]

Fear this....

I don't fear our anger, but I do worry about our span of attention. Fortunately these idiots are going to keep pricking us and make sure the average American doesn't grow bored with hunting their butts down...whoever is running their PR team is a moron. They keep misreading the general populations emotions and stoking the fire. Bad management and poor tactics. Should have stayed low and quiet and let the holidays lull the pop back to somnolence. Q

 

[Strelnikov]

I posted the item about the Apaches to see what kind of responses I could stir up. I was a little surprised that Hal didn't...well, "flame" isn't really accurate..."remonstrate" with me over it. Let's try again.

We've been hearing about asymmetric threats. Here's a good one. Let's spend our tax dollars to vaccinate every American against the Plague. Hell, let's be good guys and do the same for Mexico and Latin America too. The Europeans and Israelis are on their own - they have Socialized Medicine, so they should be OK.

Then, let's infect the fleas of a thousand camels, and turn them loose in the Middle East. There's not a chance they'll be able to protect themselves. Once the dust settles, we can resettle decent, hard-working Mexicans there.

Strelnikov

 

[Haltickling]

Anybody who condones and instigates any kind of genocide, for whatever reasons, disqualifies himself as a partner for serious discussion. I don't discuss with criminal minds.

 

[Strelnikov]

Hal

Let's take this offline and handle it by private email.

Strelnikov

 

[dvnc]

a mind is a terrible thing to waste

Wait, Strel! I wanna respond!

😉

How about let's just get our security back to the kind that handles lunacy from abroad, and stomp the offending attackers to a fine spray? Why waste all the time with vaccines and such, and then the biological warfare, when the planet, with few exceptions, is against such terrorists?

Let's pass on the mass killings of innocents, and simply remove those threatening our existence.

dvnc