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A thought I have pondered.

Adult Verification Services

ogleme said:
I think there should be a kind of license for cruising the internet where once you come of age you can apply for a card, then at each site you would type in the user # or password etc. and after verification you could obtain access to the site. It could work in reverse for kids' sites to keep out the perverts if they had licenses for under 18 as well.

It's already US law, but has been suspended by the appellate courts pending Supreme Court review.

Here is an article I wrote for my MSN Group, opposing "Adult Verification Services":

[In mid-2004] the US Supreme Court will be reviewing the COPA law [Children's Online Protection Act], which among other things requires that sites with adult content must hide behind an adult verification screen unless their material has special social value for children.

There are many problems with this approach. First, the whole concept of AVS's is based on a false premise: the assumption that everyone with a credit card is an adult. In fact, many older teens in the US have credit cards, sometimes with a parent as cosigner but in some cases, in their own names. Further, mature teens can often "borrow" credit card numbers from friends or relatives who are of legal age. The US Third Circuit found that "children may be able to obtain credit cards — either their parents’ or their own — legitimately and so circumvent the screening contemplated by COPA’s affirmative defenses. See id. at 489 (Finding of Fact ¶ 48)."

Secondly, there is no mechanism to prevent a minor from obtaining an adult verification code number from an older friend or relative. Anyone, even a 6-year-old, can enter a valid code and receive access. It's no more difficult than password trading, in which some illegal users remain undetected for long periods of time. All that an AVS provides is a false sense of security for parents who are not interested enough to properly supervise their chidren's Internet usage.

Third, and most important, we have the problem of privacy. This has two dimensions: fraud protection, and anonymity.

An AVS requires that a user give a company a great deal of sensitive consumer information: credit card number, expiration date, name, address, and possibly more. This is precisely the kind of information that criminals want to obtain. It is one thing to share this information with a merchant, but another thing entirely to ALSO have to share this information with a middleman organization in an industry (erotic web sites) not especially known for having high business ethics.

Where will this information end up? How many web sites will have access to these private details of their visitors, including those who ultimately decide not to do business with the site? Remember, the AVS information would be needed even to visit the free preview areas of adult sites under COPA -- sometimes it is only after viewing the site that a consumer may feel uncomfortable doing business with that company. With AVS's, it would be too late.

Of course, every visit to an adult site would be tracked and logged by the verification service. There would be no value in using anonymizers or proxy servers to protect your privacy, because you would be forced to enter a user-specific ID code on each visit to a controversial site. This would create a de facto database of people who visit unpopular or socially disapproved sites ... how long will it be before the government begins to use this information for "auditing" purposes?

We were assured that the Brady gun law records would never be kept by the government ... then they changed the rules to keep the records for 18 months, and now want to extend it permanently due to national security concerns which have nothing to do with gun ownership. A centralized database of "kinky people" is something that law enforcement would love -- already, some law enforcement agencies are trying to monitor visits to controversial adult web sites, as reported this month by MSNBC.

Nobody should be forced to register his or her name and personally identifying information in order to view controversial material. As the US Third Circuit Court has stated, fear of governmental or other reprisals will have a chilling effect, intimidating people into avoiding socially daring, but non-obscene, sexuality sites:

"We agree with the District Court’s determination that COPA will likely deter many adults from accessing restricted content, because many Web users are simply unwilling to provide identification information in order to gain access to content, especially where the information they wish to access is sensitive or controversial.20 People may fear to transmit their personal information, and may also fear that their personal, identifying information will be collected and stored in the records of various Web sites or providers of adult identification numbers.21

"The Supreme Court has disapproved of content-based restrictions that require recipients to identify themselves affirmatively before being granted access to disfavored speech, because such restrictions can have an impermissible chilling effect on those would-be recipients.22"

(US Third Circuit Court of Appeals, Precedential No. 99-1324, 6 Mar 2003)

Some might ask, how do we keep the occasional young teen away from “evil” web sites? The simple answer is: parents!

Every ISP in the US requires that a customer be 18 or older to open an account, and they already require a credit card for billing and verification purposes. All of them require that a parent accept responsibility for a child’s online usage. Legally and morally, it is the duty of parents to decide what is appropriate for their children, based on the child’s age and maturity level. What is suitable for a 16-year-old is not necessarily suitable for a 6-year-old. Further, since public terminals no longer allow adult content even for adult users, the claim that children access adult sites from public libraries can no longer be taken seriously.

The COPA law establishes the dangerous -- and false -- presumption that every Internet user is a child unless proven otherwise. This is a major departure from established principles of American free-expression and obscenity law, which has always held that the adult population can NOT be restricted to material suitable for children. COPA requires that ALL web sites be judged by the standard of what is “harmful to minors,” even though, technically, on-line minors are supposedly supervised by their parents.

In sum, COPA would have the effect of reducing the Internet to, as one censorship advocate called it, “a safe cyber-playground for children.”

Heaven forbid.

Love and liberty,
Valerie Sonn

For more information: http://www.aclu.org/Cyber-Liberties/Cyber-Liberties.cfm?ID=12039&c=59
http://www.adultindustryupdate.com/archives/MAY 2003 LEGAL UPDATE.doc
http://www.law-host.com/articles/lawrence_walters/chokehold.htm
http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/ACLU_v_Reno_II
 
MistressValerie said:
It's already US law, but has been suspended by the appellate courts pending Supreme Court review.

Here is an article I wrote for my MSN Group, opposing "Adult Verification Services":

[In mid-2004] the US Supreme Court will be reviewing the COPA law [Children's Online Protection Act], which among other things requires that sites with adult content must hide behind an adult verification screen unless their material has special social value for children.

There are many problems with this approach. First, the whole concept of AVS's is based on a false premise: the assumption that everyone with a credit card is an adult. In fact, many older teens in the US have credit cards, sometimes with a parent as cosigner but in some cases, in their own names. Further, mature teens can often "borrow" credit card numbers from friends or relatives who are of legal age. The US Third Circuit found that "children may be able to obtain credit cards — either their parents’ or their own — legitimately and so circumvent the screening contemplated by COPA’s affirmative defenses. See id. at 489 (Finding of Fact ¶ 48)."

Secondly, there is no mechanism to prevent a minor from obtaining an adult verification code number from an older friend or relative. Anyone, even a 6-year-old, can enter a valid code and receive access. It's no more difficult than password trading, in which some illegal users remain undetected for long periods of time. All that an AVS provides is a false sense of security for parents who are not interested enough to properly supervise their chidren's Internet usage.

Third, and most important, we have the problem of privacy. This has two dimensions: fraud protection, and anonymity.

An AVS requires that a user give a company a great deal of sensitive consumer information: credit card number, expiration date, name, address, and possibly more. This is precisely the kind of information that criminals want to obtain. It is one thing to share this information with a merchant, but another thing entirely to ALSO have to share this information with a middleman organization in an industry (erotic web sites) not especially known for having high business ethics.

Where will this information end up? How many web sites will have access to these private details of their visitors, including those who ultimately decide not to do business with the site? Remember, the AVS information would be needed even to visit the free preview areas of adult sites under COPA -- sometimes it is only after viewing the site that a consumer may feel uncomfortable doing business with that company. With AVS's, it would be too late.

Of course, every visit to an adult site would be tracked and logged by the verification service. There would be no value in using anonymizers or proxy servers to protect your privacy, because you would be forced to enter a user-specific ID code on each visit to a controversial site. This would create a de facto database of people who visit unpopular or socially disapproved sites ... how long will it be before the government begins to use this information for "auditing" purposes?

We were assured that the Brady gun law records would never be kept by the government ... then they changed the rules to keep the records for 18 months, and now want to extend it permanently due to national security concerns which have nothing to do with gun ownership. A centralized database of "kinky people" is something that law enforcement would love -- already, some law enforcement agencies are trying to monitor visits to controversial adult web sites, as reported this month by MSNBC.

Nobody should be forced to register his or her name and personally identifying information in order to view controversial material. As the US Third Circuit Court has stated, fear of governmental or other reprisals will have a chilling effect, intimidating people into avoiding socially daring, but non-obscene, sexuality sites:

"We agree with the District Court’s determination that COPA will likely deter many adults from accessing restricted content, because many Web users are simply unwilling to provide identification information in order to gain access to content, especially where the information they wish to access is sensitive or controversial.20 People may fear to transmit their personal information, and may also fear that their personal, identifying information will be collected and stored in the records of various Web sites or providers of adult identification numbers.21

"The Supreme Court has disapproved of content-based restrictions that require recipients to identify themselves affirmatively before being granted access to disfavored speech, because such restrictions can have an impermissible chilling effect on those would-be recipients.22"

(US Third Circuit Court of Appeals, Precedential No. 99-1324, 6 Mar 2003)

Some might ask, how do we keep the occasional young teen away from “evil” web sites? The simple answer is: parents!

Every ISP in the US requires that a customer be 18 or older to open an account, and they already require a credit card for billing and verification purposes. All of them require that a parent accept responsibility for a child’s online usage. Legally and morally, it is the duty of parents to decide what is appropriate for their children, based on the child’s age and maturity level. What is suitable for a 16-year-old is not necessarily suitable for a 6-year-old. Further, since public terminals no longer allow adult content even for adult users, the claim that children access adult sites from public libraries can no longer be taken seriously.

The COPA law establishes the dangerous -- and false -- presumption that every Internet user is a child unless proven otherwise. This is a major departure from established principles of American free-expression and obscenity law, which has always held that the adult population can NOT be restricted to material suitable for children. COPA requires that ALL web sites be judged by the standard of what is “harmful to minors,” even though, technically, on-line minors are supposedly supervised by their parents.

In sum, COPA would have the effect of reducing the Internet to, as one censorship advocate called it, “a safe cyber-playground for children.”

Heaven forbid.

Love and liberty,
Valerie Sonn

For more information: http://www.aclu.org/Cyber-Liberties/Cyber-Liberties.cfm?ID=12039&c=59
http://www.adultindustryupdate.com/archives/MAY 2003 LEGAL UPDATE.doc
http://www.law-host.com/articles/lawrence_walters/chokehold.htm
http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/ACLU_v_Reno_II

Thank you, that was incredibly informative. It's better to have an idea shot down with facts rather that emotional outbursts. I'm done, I'll just sit here playing my violin while watching the world crumble....
 
Thanks Valerie! I'm more prone to emotional outbursts myself so I'm glad someone can lay things down factually and articulately...cause it wouldnt be me!
I'm hoping that the internet can remain a forum for free speech (and free jerk off material and free ANYTHING) and not a giant kiddie-safe playground.
There are already a ton of ways for parents to protect their kids from veiwing adult material by means of net-nanny type software, close monitering, even so far as keystroke recorders. Some people would argue that these are not fail-proof but really NOTHING is fail proof. Just like your parents could sneak a peak at the Playboys in the news stand.
Also what's okay for SOME 16 year old to maturely veiw, it may not be okay for OTHER 16 year olds. No age-verification could handle something like that. Just like one kid may see a violent movie and move on with life, another may proceed to pipe bomb the shcool.
But anyway...I feel pretty much exactly the same as Missy Val does so just read that over and put my name at the bottom. That'd be easier. LOL!
 
I want to thank Mistress Valerie for posting that well written article. I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed. It has always irritated me that the general consensus seems to say that it's up to ALL of us to protect the children. Parents need to regulate where their kids go on the internet. It really is that simple. We shouldn't have to divulge credit card information to browse an adult web site. It's absolutely ludicrous, and I'm glad there are others who see it so.
 
Sorry I wasn't here to reply in such a long time, but I had so much housework to do (with my young cousins here and everything) that everything just kept on getting poseponed. Anyways, here I am.

nessonite said:
\
Also what's okay for SOME 16 year old to maturely veiw, it may not be okay for OTHER 16 year olds. No age-verification could handle something like that. Just like one kid may see a violent movie and move on with life, another may proceed to pipe bomb the shcool.

That's pretty much exactly what I mean. Though I have taken in all of the opinions posted on this so far (And I really appreciate it, I've never seen so much interaction in a forum before... you guys are great!), I think what Nessonite said relates to what I was pondering about all along.

I assume that there are some teenagers who can appropriately look at material like this and not go out and do silly things with their knowledge. Let's assume we have a 17-year old here. She's looking forward to her 18th birthday, since she's been here before and is wary of the 18-and-older signs, and she's got a tickling fetish.

Let's also make the assumption that this gal is smart enough to know right from wrong. Thinking that this 17 year old would read tickling stories (like one of you said before... let's use the concept of rape-tickling) and execute the ideas behind them might just depend on the person.

If she's a mature teenager and knows "Well, obviously you can't just do everything you see on T.V. and take out a gun and shoot people for fun, obviously I can't go tickle the heck out of someone and then rape them for fun either," then I wouldn't see the harm in having her (or any other teenager, male or female, from probably age 16 and up) look at material on this forum.

Then again, I guess it all depends on how these teenagers see the tickling fetish. Some might see it as just something they love - they love to gently tickle someone and enjoy their twitching and laughing - or they might see it as another tool for sex. Since teenage sex is extremely discounted - and I agree - there's a thin line between that.

And, I guess that's the hard part in everything. Where do you draw the line? You can't get to know every single person who views here, every person who comes in from a search engine and is a stealth viewer or a member. There's just no type of control against it. It's almost literally impossible to make sure that any under-18s snooping around these premises might be looking into tickling for sexual purposes, or whether for just a hobby.

I would think that if the teenager was able to distinguish the fact they enjoy tickling as a hobby and not a sexual tool, it shouldn't be much of a problem. I remember a couple years back when I ran into some porn ads that pop up. You can't say that any given child with the ability to access the internet hasn't see a porn ad or two pop up out of no where. The stealth masking of searches is to blame for this.

Anyways, going back to what I was saying, I remember running into one of these when I was younger. It filled up the whole screen, just all of this material that wasn't suited for the age I was at that time. I was forced to look at it, to read the words, for it was an all-screen popup and I had to fight with my computer to make the popup exit. Though I had to stare at this picture of naked people having sex, there was nothing immediate that prompted within me. Then again, I have always been one who hasn't found sexual material very appealing.

Anyways, I'll have to digress again, because something else popped up into my head. Parents tickle children occassionally, I suppose it's just a way in which they show affection for their children - such as the way they hug them, kiss them, etc.

To have most tickling labeled (now that I go around the net and search for popular tickling sites, most, if not all, are 18+) as a sexual thing only suited for adults saddens me.

The dream of mature teens and mature adults being able to freely talk about tickling is, unfortunately, a dream. I wish it could happen, because when I was young and realised I had a tickling fetish, I longed for a website that didn't have 18+ posted all over it.

Unless you had round-the-clock guarding of posts made.

Of course, that's completely impossible for the moderators. Lol.
 
Hi, and thank you to everyone who found my article interesting.

Hi, Elf Tickler, and thank you for your observations. I agree with you that the current legal age limit of 18 is too high; I think the age to view adult content should be 16 like it is in most of Europe. The ACLU, in their amicus brief against CIPA (a different censorship law which sadly was upheld), also raised that point, arguing that "mature teens" should have a right to access at least some "adult" material. The Supreme Court never ruled on that part of the case.

The problem we now face, whether TT or free Yahoo group owners such as me, is that anything that "might" be sexual has to be labelled as "adults only," due to potentially severe legal consequences. The US Justice Department is planning to crack down on every minor violation, so we all have to be very careful to obey the letter of the law even to the point of being overcautious. See http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.obscenity06apr06,1,102714.story.

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this excellent, and beneficial, discussion 🙂

Love and liberty,
 
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Well, I guess this thread isn't *too* old to revive as it is an important subject. As far as younger persons being able to come to a sight such as this, I just have to disagree. I'm not going to point fingers but, there is no doubt in my mind that are some individuals on the TT forum who are overly interested in children. Personally, I find that that sort of thing turns my stomach. Though pedophilic individuals may think that they are doing no harm to the child, they actually *are* doing psychological damage to the child by bringing them into an environment that they are neither mentally, emotionally or physically equipped to deal with which causes a great deal of confusion to their young and fragile minds. As far as youngsters having their *own* place like this with *no* adults, there's a very slim chance of even that working out as pedos would do everything within their power to get in and believe you me, a person driven by
a fetish can be nearly unstoppable and some will even put their lives on the line for even the slightest stimulation from the object of their obssesions. I've been around the net and I've stumbled across some pretty sick stuff and there most definately *are* predaphiles trying to play inocent through the act of tickling! I've seen groups with names like "tickledads" with over 800 members and "ticklingkids" and etc. I've seen regular tickling sites and groups where someone has slipped in a pic of little kids being tickled and so on. Frankly I think it's digusting for *anyone* to manipulate the mind of a child to satisfy their own selfish desires lustful or otherwise. Hiding in a group and talking about it like it's perfectly inocent and normal because it's "just tickling" and how it's okay because their is no genital contact doesn't excuse *anyone* and it doesn't fool people like me. Genital contact or not a person can become easily aroused by a mere thought and as long as the brain of the peron carrying out the action is in a state of sexual arousal and is an adult or is well over the age range of the child it is very inapropriate to touch them in any sort of way that is playful. When children irritably yell or whine "NO!" from being tickled by an adult, it isn't because the adult is physicly hurting them in some way, it's because they *sense* that this is not the playful act that it's being disguised to look like. They sense the arousal of the adult even though they may not know that that's what it is but, they are picking up bad vibes that something is *very* wrong and further assaults of this kind can lead to severe traumatization of the child's mind. Taking advantage of a childs body and using it against the will of the mind is an extreme violation that will ultimately lead to disaster. No. I do not think that it would be safe for minors to have a tickling site reserved to themselves or even a section on a forum such as this as it would be too easy for sex predators to get in. Maybe a book should be written to show them that they're perfectly normal and not perverted in their fascination with tickling but, with all of the easy access and password hacking sites on the net it's just too much of a risk.
 
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